VTEC Racer

Why would Honda Europe be shocked about a car that won't even be sold in Europe?

I read a news article that VW will go bankrupt because the HS250h will steal all sales from VW. The news article was my imagination.

Colin

Is it still Off Topic if the OP hijacks his own thread?

Colin

I don't see a way to fit the intercooler without a hood scoop. BUT there are a lot of smart guys over at Honda so maybe if there was enough 'will' they could
'find a way'. However, understanding how disappointed they are with the K23, I believe they lack the will.

dom

Seriously, the thread isn't about the Euro Accord vs HS250. Its about potential changes to the TSX. Keep it on topic.

JD23

I was assuming that the SH-AWD would be combined with a powerful V6. The thing I like about the German manufacturers, Lexus and Infiniti is that there is more engine overlap between the different models. For example, I was hoping for a vehicle with the 3.7 L engine and SH-AWD, but with the TSX sheetmetal, sort of like how Infiniti offers the 3.5/3.7 VQ in both the G and M series. I like the TL, but believe that the TSX is a more reasonable size.

LukeaTron

I agree completely though it's not a popular opinion around here. I still think SH-FWD (the computer controlled differential from the SH-AWD system only without the rear half) would be awesome on the Type-S version of this car. They made a Prelude with an earlier version of this system in the late 90's and the reviewers raved about it. They said it made the car feel almost as if it were rear wheel drive. I'd be all over that though I suspect the marketing of such a system would be a tough sell.

dom

The 'SH' died with the Prelude in 2002. Wonder why that system hasn't seen another car since. At least here in North America.

davidspalding

They better fix those Prius headlamps, Consumer Reports called them out as being weaker sub-standard.

spurfan15

My biggest hope is for i-DTEC with an available 6AT (I'd still get 6MT, but it'd be good to have 6AT as an option), but that one is not looking promising. I also want Honda to bring the advanced safety features like LKAS over.

LuvMyTSX

Some people (me included) want all the bells and whistles of the larger cars but in a smaller size. I don't want to drive a yacht in order to get all the cool features.

Colin

I hear what you're saying, but that's never been the Honda/Acura business model. Honestly, I don't know if it should be either. There are enough brands that will allow you to 'option up' the 'small' chassis. Understanding Honda's manufacturing methods, I wonder if could make a 3.7 SH-AWD TSX with a 6MT in a profitable manner?

Most likely, the only way to make such a vehicle profitable would be to price it as a 'one off' and would our customer base respond to a 40K TSX? We all know the answer: They will complain on the forums that "if I'm going to pay 40K for an Acura, I'll go and buy XYZ brand' It is a double edged sword trying to slice open a chicken and egg.

dom

Considering they're pretty much the only ones that don't offer optional engines, maybe they should re-think their manufacturing methods.

LukeaTron

Why would they want to rethink the entire philosophy of the company when the current model has already proven to be highly successful?

JD23

I still don't like that performance and luxury are so strongly correlated with size with Acura, when this is not the case with every competitor (Audi, Infiniti, Lexus, BMW and MB). I understand that Acura reduces costs by offering few options packages, which I appreciate, but I think Acura's J35/J37 should be offered across more models. If Nissan can offer the VQ V6 in nearly every model and has AWD available in both the G and M, I think Acura could do the same with the TSX and TL.

Colin

Why? If they're the only ones playing in this arena, they have a large market to work with. IMO, there is noting wrong with the basic formula that a little tweeking can't fix.

Acura's strengths are value, (relatively) high feature content vs. price and excellent reliability. Building cars to order, ala Detroit and the Europeans increases cost and/or lowers quality.

Acura needs to tweek the RDX, bring out a good coupe/convertible and lastly a true flagship. Once these are done, I think most of the 'sins of the past' will be forgotten. Interestingly, our local BMW dealer is looking for a sales consultant but I don't think I'll move. I'm not 100% convinced the grass is really greener.

Colin

Blame Americans for the first one and since Acura is (essentially) a NA entity, is it logical that they cater to the domestic market. Look at the G1 TSX. Despite is popularity with the press and public, it sold at most 40K per year at its peak. A drop in the bucket compared to Civics and the larger Accord.

iTimmy

Is the disappointment with the K23 the engine/driveline or the RDX itself?

dom

Since when is adding an engine option changing the entire philosophy of a company? I said manufacturing methods, not philosophy.

But you raise a good point. Only answer I can give you is so they can sell more, which I thought was the goal. I'll personally not look at a TSX until a more powerful engine option is added. So for selfish reason's I'd like to see one.

jlukja

But, was that 40K per year based on demand or on production limits?

dom

I don't quite understand this. If they keep the 2.4L car they'd still have an entry in that playing field. Adding a 3.5 or 2.3 or whatever shouldn't have a negative effect on the 2.4L car. In fact doesn't it give thema smaller market? Does BMW lose potential market size because they offer 3 or 4 engines in the 3 series.

I agree.

Does building 5 variations of the Accord lower quality?

Any or all of those won't get me any closer to an Acura dealer Again, thinking selfishly.

wackura

Why can't Acura have a few more strengths?

I think there should be a V6 TSX as an answer to the IS 350 and any other mid 30's V6 sedan I'm forgetting, simple as that.

Colin

Hard to tell, since the driveline isn't used elsewhere.

Most say production limits. However, I wonder how many more they would have sold had there been no limits? 60K?

BMW does not have a 'mainstream' brand to contend with. Honda seems unwilling to cannibalize Honda sales for Acura's sake.

No, it doesn't hurt the Accord quality or MDX for that matter. I was specifically referring to the practice of line by line options.

Anyway, enough of Honda production philosophy, we're getting OT again. I have a few price quotes to work on (you know, real work that pays my bills) Aloha!

dom

You'd have an easier time paying those bills working at BMW

Colin

Probably true, but I have a lot of 'brand equity' in Acura: I've been here for almost 14 years. If I moved, I'd go from being the 2nd most senior to the most junior. If anyone were to start laying off people, I don't want to be the first in line.

dom

You know I was only kidding right? I'm in no position to start suggesting job moves for someone living in Hawaii. But I think you'd be better off staying as well.

jlukja

^^ since we're kind of OT anyways, Colin, quick question. I would hazard a guess that most of us mainlanders would love to live and work in Hawaii. Where would you love to live?

HeavyDuty

1. Engine-Nope, why would they? (Other than a higher HP Type-S)
2. Transmission-No again.
3. Lighting-Maybe LED tails.
4. Navigation-RPC upgrade available to older year owners.
5. Rims.-Probably on year three.
6 Styling changes.-Grill probably on year three also.
7. Electronics-Pushbutton keyless start would make sense.

As far as the K23, I've asked this several times and can't get a really good answer but most claim Honda's not too thrilled with it. I'm interested in why that is. Is it a bad design with TSB's or recalls or is it an effeciency thing or what?

If you ask me, the TSX has a buttload of room under the hood (albeit *not* on top of the valve cover) for an air/air or air/water inter(after)cooler located in front of or behind the VC.

I wouldn't want to see AWD on this model, but it does look like it's ready made for it which would make sense if "I" (the manufacturer) wanted to reverse engineer it at a later date. To me, it'd be way too much stuff on a car aimed at this segment and would price itself out of the market (whatever market it would be at that point and I'd expect it to have placed itself in the Infiniti, Lex, BMW, or C Class Benz by that time.)

As far as other competitors, I see less of a direct alignment between models and an inability to directly compare the way we used to. The IS250 isn't a direct competitor with a G37 or a TSX on account of the obvious differences with FR4, FR6 and FF4.

Colin

That's a good question. It would be nice to have a temperate place, not too cold and not too hot. I don't think I'd like to have to deal with snow, but having it a short drive away would be nice. I suppose if the SF Bay area wasn't going to fall into the ocean, I'd like to live there. Realistically, I could see moving to the Big Island. They have some beautiful country in Kamuela/Waimea.

(Cj)

I think he was talking about the Avensis which is sold in Europe. BTW the new Avensis is butt ugly compared to the Euro Accord.

SSFTSX

AVensis is decent looking car and is priced lower than Accord. People buy Toyota for its build quality/fuel economy/lower ownership.
Now add performance and electronics advantage. It will surely sell well.
Put Lexus badge with enhanced style and lighting and Toyota has winner.
People pay $12K more for ES350 but Camry SE looks much better. Thats how powerful is the Lexus brand.

HNDFRK

What the tsx needs is Advanced VTEC and Pushbutton start.

LuvMyTSX

Holy crap the Avensis is disgusting looking!

But, enough of the Avensis. It isn't sold in the US so it's irrelevant.

CarbonGray Earl

That Avensis is effin ugly. I hope they sell it in the US....Acura could sell more TSXs that way (if its even truly competition).

davidspalding

That Avensis is a confusion of design idears, even more than the 2GEN. It could certainly use a plastic surgery, a haircut, and professional makeover.

I think, not sure, but think our friend is saying the Avensis could be rebadged and upgraded in the US as a Lexus model, as the Euro Accord is here as the TSX, and it would sell well.

I don't concur that people buy Lexus' over Toyos just for the name; a Camry SE's visual appeal over a Lexus ES350 is strictly a matter of personal taste, not consumer buying trends. There is most definitely a value-add with Lexus, consumer satisfaction surveys appear to support that.

SSFTSX

Car is ready for US under Lexus badge.I dont think it will cost more than TSX for LEXUS to sell. It is 4cylinder car. Most buyers will buy if for it enhance performance/push button/navigation system/fuel economy on regular fuel.

wackura

Will you have to bring this car to a complete stop in order to use the nav menu?

(Cj)

The HS250 isn't a rebadged Avensis (like how the TSX is a rebadged rebadged Accord). The relationship between the Avensis and the HS250 is more or less similar to the relationship between the US Accord and TL. What makes the connection between the HS and Avensis even more unique is the different drivetrains.

SSFTSX

Relationship is 100% from Exact Wheel base/lenght/width/heigth to CVT transmission
Only difference is hybrid. Europe gets diesel while US gets hybrid. Toyota has finanical resources to offer Separate engine/Enhanced Styling/NVH levels for US market while Honda is simple rebadging. Have u seen 60inch tall car with 0.27 Cd?
Thats why i am skeptical of any claim of TSX getting anything without Euro Accord.

(Cj)

Yeah, and that's why I said the relation between the Avensis and HS250 is like the US Accord to TL. Same platform same transmission and even similar engines in the base model. The biggest difference is sheet metal (and interiors). The HS250 has Lexus's signature design language. Lexus can't simply just rebadge a Avensis, since Lexus is a global brand. Also, Toyota learned from the Prius that you can have a tall roomy car and still have superior Cd (over low slung cars).

davidspalding

All crystal balls are created equal,... but some are more equal than others.


With apologies to George Orwell.