4dr4bangrAccord

buick =

If you want a buick then go buy one.

I'll be looking for a manual TL SH-AWD.

There were more MDX's than Enclave's sold. big deal.

HondaOnWORKS

Now now now... I wouldn't say Acura isn't a luxury brand. I actually see Acura as a luxury brand, but I see it in terms of a "ranking". As in... Mercedes Benz > BMW > Lexus > Audi > Acura/Infiniti. They all are luxury brands, but some brands are just more "recognized" in our society than others. Don't mean they aren't luxurious. Its like Mercedes Benz is the LV, and Acura/Infiniti is just Burberry. All luxury brands, but just some are "better" luxury in our society.

Now you saying the Acura TSX is not in the same segment as the C300 and 328i. That's where you are completely wrong. All three cars are "Entry Level Luxury" sedans. The 011 model of the TSX compared to the 011 models of the C300 and 328i offers almost the same features with some minor differences. The TSX is in the segment competing against the IS250, A4, C300, 328i and G25. How you going to say a car that offers nearly the same features in terms of luxury equipment isn't in the segment? The Buick Regal isn't even an "Entry Level Luxury" Sedan, and doesn't offer the same or near the same equipment as the TSX. The Acura TSX performs closer/better #s against the IS250, A4, C300, 328i and G25, and also provides nearly the same equipment. While the Buick Regal doesn't.

Here's a fun fact: The Buick Regal is made in China.
I wouldn't buy any car that's made from China..., and I'm Asian too.

HondaOnWORKS

I think that's a poor argument, no offense.

So a MayBach is just a Mercedes Benz S Class.
So a Rolls Royce is just a BMW 7 Series.
So an Infiniti G37 is just a Nissan Skyline GT.
So a Lamborghini Gallardo is just a Audi R8 V10.
So an Audi R8 is just some lame ass VW.
So a Porsche is just some lame ass VW beetle.
So a Lexus just some Toyota.


What I'm saying is you can't really claim a car is not really luxurious because its based off another car. All companies that branch out do this. Did you know the Audi R8's V10 engine is just a Lamborghini engine? The Infiniti G37 shares the same body as the Nissan Skyline GT. Just like how the Acura TSX shares the same body as the Honda Accord Euro R. Companies that branches out share parts with each other.

Rocket_man

Luxury is in the eye of the beholder, but even Acura has abondoned thier chase of the Tier 1 brands and instead as Colin pointed out are now focusing on 'smart luxury' which is really another way of saying they will limit thier investment in luxury to only things they feel are cost effective and can keep their cars competing on price, not so much on features or performance. The 3-series, Audi, MB with rear wheel drive or AWD are in a different segment than an I4 front wheel drive car. Acura is just not going to invest in developing a rear wheel platform to make themselves truely competitive, this would not be 'smart luxury.' While the TSX may have many of the features of these cars, the Germans and Lexus go above and beyond, Acura tops out well before they do. And in fact this is the segment Acura is aiming for, smart luxury, the consumer looking for the bargain, the compromise between performance feature set, and price. And this has been pointed out by many on this site as they look for a car. Isn't that why most of us bought these cars? Value? But then we somehow want to feel like we got a $40K car for $32K. We didn't.

This is the same strategy that will keep Acura, almost by definition, one or two steps behind these competitors. They will wait to adopt a feature until they have to, until it is cheaper, they will always be playing catch up.

Now the Regal is newly offered in the US and not (re) established yet but they already have a turbo engine and later an AWD performance version. On features it compares and in some cases exceeds the TSX. Oh and it is made in Germany, not China. I just wish it wasn't so "Buick", maybe as I get older I'll grow into it!

I like the Acura brand. My 1G has been very realible and a good value, but it is no BMW. I sold my BMW to get the TSX, they are very different and I'm not fooling myself that I have a lower cost BMW. I have an Acura. I really wished Acura would take a more aggressive competitive approach but I don't see it. The RL, thier flagship, needs a complete 'do-over.' Few have even heard of the RL, I hardly see any on the road, and it does not push the brand forward. The ZDX is puzzeling to me. Nice looking car, poor overall execution for anything more that 2 people, and selling poorly. Not "smart luxury." Thier MDX is a very nice car, tops in its segment, but the large SUV segment is in decline. The TSX and the TL, good vlaues, but both moving sideways for a few years. What is Acura's next move? The CSX???? That is not going to raise the status of Acura in anyone's eye. GM made a smart move with the Regal. I don't care much for GM but I have to give them credit.

KeithL

Acura needs to clean house on their styling departments. They build one of the best cars for reliability and functionality, they just do not know how to execute interiors or exteriors. On the Interior they need to make the car look and feel more luxorious. I was in a Lincoln MKZ while atad simple inside had a more luxurious look and feel to it. The 4G TL interior has nice materials, excellent padding and softness in the right places, but the look and flow does not match. And well for exteriors and I know beauty is in eye of beholder, but Acura is not getting people in the showroom becasue many are turned off by hwo their vehicles look. The enhanced Power Penum showing up on the 2011 TSX is a step in the right direction, but I still amd not a fan of this big shiney pointy front end.

Craig-D

Here's the difference between the TSX and the examples you cited: Your examples do not share interiors, wheels, or most body panels, and in some cases the drivetrains are completely different. The TSX on the other hand, isn't merely based on the Euro Accord - it's the identical car! The only difference between the two is a diffferent grill and the badges! Same with the RL and Honda Legend. Total badge job. Try and convince me a Rolls Royce is just as identifiable as a BMW 7 series badge job, as is the TSX/EuroAccord.

Aruca Xst

THE EURO ACCORD IS NOT COMPARABLE TO THE US ACCORD. ITS CALLED A EURO ACCORD FOR A REASON. ITS A LUXURY SEDAN OVERSEAS AND ITS A LUXURY SEDAN IN THE STATES AS WELL. What do you get? Is the word "accord" the reason your getting the euro version mixed up with the regular accord? The regular accord is also sold overseas as the accord. So it is not a regular accord re-badged.

HondaOnWORKS

I'm going to start by saying Audi doesn't offer RWD. They offer FWD on the Audi A4 with AWD option. So you saying just because the Acura TSX is FWD don't mean its not in the competition, because Audi A4 is FWD standard. Also the Audi A4 is inline4. The TSX is pretty similar to the Audi A4. Both Inline 4 with the exception one being N/A and turbo. Both FWD, with the exception of one being able to come in AWD. At the end the A4 is still a FWD Inline 4 car, so how is that not in the same segment as the TSX? Just because all other competitors have V6 don't mean the TSX can't compete in them w/ an inline 4. The TSX's inline4 produces enough HP and TQ for the 1G and 2G engine to be able to compete in the segment. Hence the IS250 only makes 204HP from a V6 while the 1G TSX makes 205HP from an I4. Why does Honda have to bother with a V6 just so it can be in the segment? I believe the TSX is in the segment, because it produces enough HP/TQ and performs better/close #s to the competitors while offering the same equipment with minor differences. An example of better is, the TSX performs better than the IS250, and offers the same luxurious features with the exception of back 2 auto, push start, bi-xenon, and etc... little minor things that don't even make a difference. Hell, MB/BMW don't even offer push start as standard; they charge you 500~700$ for the option.

Smart luxury, maybe. It still makes Acura a luxury company. With all the features the TSX offers and the performance it can perform. Whether its close or better than its competitors that's what makes it in the Entry Level Luxury Sedan.

I believe the Regal is too far behind in performance, and luxurious features to competing with the TSX. The Regal is also made with a poorer interior quality, and it lacks some luxurious features the TSX has. But these features that the TSX has, the A4, C300, G25, IS250 has which makes the TSX in the same segment as the them. What makes them all in the same segment is they all produce the better/close performance #s no matter the engine size or drivetrain. They all offer the same luxury equipment in a way with slight differences. Hell, there was an article by Infiniti when they were releasing the G25, they wanted the car to better compete with the TSX, IS250 and other German rivals. The article is there, you just gotta google it.

Again, I see Acura as a luxury company, but in terms of ranks... Acura is on the same boat as the competition, but they might be at the end of the boat, that's all.


It was merely an example, but yes some of my connections maybe off in terms of "Same car with a different badge on it", however its the same idea, no? The Audi R8 V10 uses a Lamborghini Engine. How about the Infiniti G Sedan? The Nissan Skyline GT is the exact same body with a different badge. You keep saying it the exact same car, well it isn't. Features and interior options are way different. The (CL7) Euro R is offered with Recro racing seats and LSD. They get a button to close their side mirrors from the interior of the car. As the version of the Euro R the American Acura TSX, we get none of that. At the end the body is the same, just like how the Nissan Skyline GT is.

Actually, you proved my point again.

"Your examples do not share interiors, wheels, or most body panels, and in some cases the drivetrains are completely different"

The Euro R doesn't share same interiors as the TSX, or wheels. If you look at the TSX interior and the Euro R interior its completely different. Same with wheels. Body panels? I think all companies that has a branch out company share body panels. Parts are always being shared across the company to each other. You should know that.

Craig-D

Who said anything about the Euro Accord being comparable to the American version? The AMerican version is aimed towards American tastes in size and driving characteristics, while the Euro version is suited to Euro tastes. If Honda could get away with such a small firm-riding car in the mid-size family segment in America, there would not be two different Accords. Honda is not a luxury brand. A Euro Accord is not a luxury sedan overseas. It's a performance-orientated Honda outfitted with a lot of equipment. When you compare the interior finishes of the Euro Accord with true European luxury vehicles from the likes of BMW, Mercedes, Audi, Jaguar, etc. this becomes instantly apparent.

The only country in the world where the U.S. Accord and Euro Accord are sold together is Japan. The U.S. Accord is called the Inspire there and it slots below the Legend and above the Euro/Japanese Accord in Honda's lineup. So there you have it: the U.S. Accord is considered a higher level vehicle than the Euro Accord in the one place they are sold together.

Craig-D

What's the Euro R? If you are referring to the Euro Accord, it has the identical interior, body panels, and wheels as the Acura TSX. The only different parts are additional engine options in Europe, the grill, and badges - plus Europe gets some features we don't get and we have some that they don't get.

HondaOnWORKS

Wow, you're arguing with me, and you don't know what an Euro R is?

In the European market, the Acura TSX is the Honda Accord Euro R. The Acura TSX gets its body from the Euro R and its based off the Euro R. Just like how the Infiniti G is based off the Skyline GT. Google it.

You do know that the Acura TSX only shares the same body as the Euro R, right? You claiming it shares the same wheels then you claim it shares "similar" wheels, funny. I just googled the stock rims on the Euro R accord, and they don't look nothing like the TSX rims.

All I'm pointing out is that all companies that branches shares parts and technology. So a Lamborghini Gallardo is just an expensive Audi R8 with a different badge? It clearly uses the same technology and engine. No, its a different car, just like how the TSX and the Euro R are different cars. They are just based off each other. Just like the Infiniti G and Nissan Skyline GT. Just like the Toyota Altezza is the Lexus IS.

Aruca Xst

You state "the only country in the world where the U.S. Accord and Euro Accord are sold together is Japan." NO Japan is not the only place where both are sold. Australia carries both cars so the credibility of your responses are already marred. Go sit in a standardly equipped 328 and tell me the differences between the interior. You will realize that their is no Bluetooth, iPod integration, Voice controls, and many other things that make a luxury car well, luxury. You have to add expensive features such as a $600+ iPod option while many of those features come standard with the TSX.
Your argue the TSX is not a luxury sedan because it's a re-badged Euro Accord. So can I ask you a question. Was the third generation LEXUS LS a luxury sedan? No it is not a trick question..

Aruca Xst

ANYWAYS, it's the happy time of the year so I apologized if I disrespected anybody with my posts. No hard feelings. Just trynna defend my baby! lol

KeithL

Last time I looked at a 328 to get it equipped near what a TSX has woudl run you easily around $40K and good luck, you'll have to order one becasue I coudl never find a dealer that coudl find a 328 with the premium sound system, plus BMW nickle and dimes you to death, every little thing is an option, NAV, HIDS, Premium Sound, IPOD, etc. But then most people buy a BMW 328 for the badge prestige, not the options.

dom

Some quick Googling goes a long way guys.

http://www.honda.co.uk/cars/accordsaloon

The TSX IS a European Honda Accord. That isn't a bad thing but it is what it is and has been this way from day 1, way back in 2003 when the first gen was released.

Look at the gallery, its the same car minus the badges like Craig pointed out. Even the wheels are same. Interior, yup same. Sure there are a few options that may be different and of course Europe offers optional engines like a 2.0L 4 and the 2.2L diesel but otherwise its the same car. Again, this isn't a negative, just pointed out the facts.

Not too sure about the Euro-R but it isn't offered in the UK. The last gen was offered with a 225HP 2.0L although I don't think its available in this gen.

dom

Can we get some links of the Euro R you're talking about because I haven't been able to find a thing.

Craig-D

We are talking about the current generation TSX/Euro Accord. It appears the Euro R was the European name for the last generation TSX and their similarities or differences bear no relevance to our discussion of the current car. Dom has already posted proof above that the current TSX/Euro Accord are identical, so I'll leave it at that.

Oops, you're right, I missed Australia. The bigger North American Accord is slotted above the smaller Euro Accord there too however.

No one is arguing a BMW or Audi isn't hugely more expensive when equipped the same as the TSX. But no matter what you do, you can't upgrade the black and painted silver plastic interior of the TSX to match their base real wood and metal interiors. But hey, at least Acura gave us real metal door handles for 2011! Maybe for 2012 we'll get push button start like everyone else.

4dr4bangrAccord

Then go buy a car with push button start, but I guess it's cheaper to argue about why Acura isn't luxury to you.

I want to get the Acura TL SH-AWD because of the push button start and the 6 speed manual though. Do you know if having a manual is considered luxury? I don't think it would be considered luxurious because it wouldn't shift gears for me.

Craig-D

Though desirable, the lack of a push-button start wasn't a dealbreaker for me. It won't kill me to turn the key to start the car old school style. You can argue the matter all you want, but at the end of the day even Acura doesn't consider itself a true tier 1 luxury brand, hence the "smart luxury" tag-line. This is why I suggest they are closer to another near luxury brand like Buick than a tier 1 luxury brand like Jaguar. I'm okay with Acura being a near luxury brand, which is why I bought one. But to argue Acura is putting out vehicles at the same level of true luxury brands such as the likes of Jaguar, Mercedes-Benz, and BMW is ludicrous.

A manual does not detract from the luxurious nature of a luxury sports sedan. However, one would be out of place and indeed raise eyebrows in freeway cruiser-orientated luxury cars such as the Lexus LS, Mercedes E-S Classes, and Jaguar XJ.

born2blaze

Hi guys, I have tried 325HP version of it, The opel Insignia, its same car as buick, nice 4x4 with suspension you can adjust on the fly. But quality of plastic inside... I almost cried, car I tried got 8000km so almost new and I already heard squeekie plastics. I hope in us you got better quality.

Oh and more, two of my friend got insignias, not so powerfull models, one of them already sold it because he hate it, the seccond one still have it but he has got a problem... sometimes light turn on in the middle of the night when car is parked, and battery id dead in the morning. There are lot of stories about Insignia model, and just be carefull, opel in poland is not known from quality... but quantity

More info in my own thread... with pictures of opc version.

HondaOnWORKS

I can only find a commercial of the car.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_giVNAA7rE

Aruca Xst

It is not ludicrous when the TSX competes extremely well with the 328i, C-class, and IS250. Jaguar does not even offer a car under 52,000 so their not a relevant competitor with the TSX. I am not arguing that Acura can take on BMW or Mercedes head on as a company because they can't. But the TSX can take on a is250, 328i, a4, and c-class easily. This is how I see things pan out in this clash.
TSX- longevity, lower maintenance cost, many standard options, gas efficient, balance of power and handling,
328i- reliable, Handling, Horsepower, costly maintenance, overpriced
A4- Turbo(unreliable), unreliable, gas efficient, torque, costly maintenance
IS250- longevity, luxury, average handling
C-class- Luxury, unreliable, costly maintenance, overpriced

But honestly for the 30-35k price range, I would get a g37 if I didn't already have my TSX. The gas mileage and longevity are the main reasons why I went with the TSX. But after seeing Infiniti finally improving their dash material, I would argue the g37 be the best value if your looking for performance.
But anyways, the Acura line is simply not deep enough to compete with the entire mercedes or bmw brand. But the cars Acura offer do compete with cars mercedes and bmw offers. The TL SH-AWD has outperformed the 5 series, e-class, and A6. Many reviewers praise the 3.7 liter v6 and the SH-AWD system and claim it can compete with cars costing thousands more.

HondaOnWORKS

I'm starting to find it quite annoying when debating with you, because all you have been saying is the TSX is not comparable to the C300 without any proof. Your only proof so far is that its not comparable, because Acura isn't a "True Luxury" brand. You're starting to sound like this other guy I had a debate with... Interesting... I believe Acura is on the same boat as Mercedes Benz and BMW, but just farther down the boat. Again, ranking system. The 011 TSX offers the almost the same features as the 011 C300, how does this not make the C300 in the same segment as the TSX? Because of what? The TSX also performs close #s with the C300 too. That makes both cars in the same segment. Both entry level luxury sedans.

So far all this debate, all you said in sum is "The TSX isn't in the league as the C300 because the TSX is an Acura and also a re badged Accord."

So I guess the Lexus IS isn't in the C300 league because its a re badged Toyota Altezza. So I guess the Infiniti G isn't in the C300 league because its a re badged Nissan Skyline GT.

My point is that it doesn't matter if a car is based off something else, because most companies do that. The TSX is in the same segment as the C300 because of the same features (exception of minor differences) are offered, and they both perform similar #s.

Oh and extra note to Rocket_Man: The Buick Regal is made in Shanghai, China. Russelsheim, Germany. And Oshawa, Ontario, Canada.

Aruca Xst

btw the article from this post will prove my point quite well..https://acurazine.com/forums/2g-tsx-2009-2014-143/best-2010-entry-level-luxury-car-comparo-764431/

HondaOnWORKS

This is where I was getting at. Acura the whole brand might not be big enough to compete w/ MB and BMW, because Acura don't offer enough cars yet.

But Acura do have cars in their line-ups that compete against MB and BMW cars.

Colin

Exactly... this is what I was referring to.

4dr4bangrAccord

Buick is crap luxury, like a Hyundai Genesis.

Acura is "smart" luxury.

Aruca Xst

The Hyundai Genesis is head and shoulders above the Buick. It is proven to be competitive with the competition. In a sense the Genesis competing with the e-class, A6 and 5 series is like the tsx against the 328i, a4, etc. You get good value at a great price.

KeithL

You clearly have not looked ta a Genesis then, it is an excellent car. Hyundai just needs to learn some suspension dynamics and some better bolstering in the seats and get rid of the Elantra buttons. The car is solid and well built and if they had spun a new label up migght be a bigger threat over time. Look at their sales numbers, they are selling as many or more Genesis per month as either the TSX or TL. Not bad for a car that covers $33K - $43K range.

4dr4bangrAccord

I would never look at it because i wouldn't buy a Hyundai. Yea I would rather buy an Infiniti M37 than a Hyundai Genesis or Equus. Nice car btw Keith.

4dr4bangrAccord

So now Hyundai is like Acura.

At least Hyundai is "smart" enough to follow the Acura "smart" luxury concept.

Craig-D

The Jaguar XF is the same price as the Acura RL. Do you honestly think the RL is competitive with the XF? If offered your choice of one for free, would you pick a TL over a 5 series, A6 or E-Class?

The last generation IS was the Toyota Altezza and it was a piece of crap that defiled the Lexus name. They haven't been the same car since 2005 when the current IS was introduced. The Nissan Skyline is an expensive car with upscale dynamics despite it's badging - if the G37 was a rebadged Altima, then you'd have a point.

You'll note that the article references the TSX V6 as the competitor in the class, as it states that a non-turbo 4 cyl is a no-no in the entry level luxury segment.

Aruca Xst

Honda makes one of the peppiest 4 cylinders in the world. The k24 is competitive with the small v6 engines offered by the is250, 328i and c-class. It may not look good on paper but it is kicky 4 banger that put up similar numbers in comparison to the is250 and c-class.

And to answer your first question, I wouldn't. But fact still remains the RL is still luxury enough to compete with others in its class. It is selling poorly I can't disagree with that but it does compete with the e-class, 5 series, a6 etc. What other segment would it be placed against?

BTW- the third gen LEXUS LS is a re-badged Toyota Celsior.

Aruca Xst

Yea they are brands both overshadowed by a flaw. Acura is currently overshadowed by the "exterior styling" and Hyundai for it's name. If I was to buy a Luxury cruiser at this moment and wanted the best bargain, the Equus would be on top of my list. Hyundai has climbed the charts with the Genesis Sedan and is proving to the world they can put out luxury cars.
Hyundai and Acura always give you the most bang for your buck.
Plus if you want POM, these two brands are as reliable as they come.

People fail to realize how overpriced BMW's and Mercedes are. 3 to 4 years ago, the IS250 , TSX, 328I, A4 and C-class were all under 30,000. Now the only car under 30,000 is the TSX. This segment is slowly getting overpriced but I am grateful Acura did not decide to ante up their prices like the competitor. Sure I could've shelled out an extra 3-5 thousand and got myself a 3 series but I decided not to. Mind you I just turned 20 and which 20 year old wouldn't want a brand new 3 series? But fact of the matter is the TSX appealed more to me because its more reliable, better warranty, and comes with way more standard features. Let's be honest, the average joe in this entry-level luxury segment will not tell the difference between driving the TSX, C-CLASS, 328I, or is250. I don't mention the a4 because it does come with a 2.0 turbo and 250+ lbs or torque. But outside of the a4 you won't really see much difference in the driving. AND THE TSX COMES WITH A 4 BANGER.

It just proves that people are willing to shell out the extra doe for that bmw or mercedes emblem.

Aruca Xst

Agreed...especially on the brand being a threat over time. Hyundai made great strides with the 4.6L V8 and is adapting great with its competition. Acura desperately needs a V8 for its flagship model to better its perception. At the end of the day tho, it really is just a perception issue. Infiniti squeezed 348 horsepowers out of its 3.7L V6 and that power is more than enough to compete with the 5 series, a6, etc. But to kick it with the other "big boys" you must either go big or go home.

...Acura in a sense is trying to take the highroad by offering more technology for a bit less performance but unfortunately it's not getting to the consumer

KeithL

I came close last year to a Genesis and the seats and rear suspension ride turned me off, the car was built rock solid. My issue is the dealers, I want to see how the dealers step up to that class of service. Witht he Equus Hyundai is rolling out a new level of concierge sevice where they will pickt eh car up and deliver your loaner when you need service. Also The Genesis currenlty you only get a loaner if you take it to the purchasing dealer for service, with Inifiniti I can get a loaner from any dealer.

SSFTSX

Honda Euro Accord is also Car of the Year in Russia. second largest market in EU. and Honda has ranked #1 by Fleet in terms of long term reliability.

2010 TSX V-6 is already among the best in fuel economy. 2011 will make new bench mark.

SSFTSX

Acutally Honda Euro Accord is upscale version of TSX.

dom

Can't see You Tube at work.

Can anyone explain what's in the vid?

KeithL

Looks like previous gen non-US Accord (1G US TSX)