dadn4sc

Every new car is compared to other cars - be it right or wrong. Monte Carlo!!! Now thats funny! I would have never guessed that! The released shot of the new TSX looks a bit Lexus IS to me, but these accord shots do not. I like it, but i need a bit more power - not a lot, but a bit more. I drive an IS350 now and am looking to downgrade to something cheaper. I was kinda hoping the new txs would fit the bill, but now im not so sure, but thats what test drives are for. The two model thing worked for the IS - im shocked to see so many is250s out there, so i'm really not sure what Acura was thinking.

edit: maybe Acura realized that the IS250 does pretty well and there was more demand in that segment for styling over power. hmmmm....and the 250 is a few grand more than the txs too.

SpicyMikey

Power is just not the top priority for most car buyers. Even for sports sedans I suspect handling, looks, and features are more important. Emphasis on power is just not #1 with Joe Buyer.

I'm surprised you are surprised more people by the 250 then the 350. Most people buying a 3 series, 5 series or an MB E series opt for the smaller engines also. The first engine in a series is usually the best match for the car with most people needing to get to work and back.

dadn4sc

Well, I think you are right. It seems to me that there is a great opportunity to shove a car into the mix with 250-275hp at under $30k. I guess i, along with others, am just a bit disappointed that honda can have an accord v6 yet there is no tsxv6 - yet. I'm just one of those guys that wants it all though! Inexpensive, good looking, and decently powerful...just like my women!!!!LOL!!!

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

I still don't understand the harping for a V6. I think the K24 has enough flexibility in it that they should be able to reliably deliver another 20 or so hp out of it. Hell, since they are keeping the motor, an additional 10 hp would have been adequate to give the impression of making improvements.

Unless Honda is developing a small displacement V6 that nobody has heard anything about yet, I really don't want the V6 to go in the TSX. I think it will upset the cars handling characteristics by making the front end even heavier than it already is.

SpicyMikey

Well, I'm betting you'll get your wish. Hopefully the TSX-S will have a small v6 with SHAWD soon as an option. They almost have to. They say they want to move to be a tier 1 brand. That meansn moving away from 4cyl FWD powertrains.

wackura

A V6 TSX couldn't possibly be under $30k but it could be below $35k.

wackura

That's an inside joke.

dadn4sc

I think its a perception thing. Luxury cars have V6s. Honda Civics and the cheap accords have 4s. Quiet, touquey (spelling?!?!), smooth - luxury. Something that has good passing speed. Thats why people are harping for the V6. I've read every one of these pages and people were excited at the possiblity of a nice midsized v6 and were let down by a 4. People will buy it, and probably be happy for it. I'm just saying that there is a definite opening for a car at @$30k that has good power and great looks. All these people loading up IS250s that end up costing $40k, could get a more powerful, great looking car at $30k. I cant think of another true performance luxury car that does that.

dadn4sc

Even under $35k it would be a good deal if it were an acura because of all the great options you get.

SpicyMikey

Agree with everything you said but I don't think it's possible to expect that under $30k. a v6 with SHAWD will add a almost $5k to the base price. That was wackura's guess and I think he's right.

wackura

I think the 1998-2002 Accord was about the same size as the TSX and they put a V6 in that. They probably don't include a V6 in the TSX because it wouldn't sell so well as a Honda Accord in the rest of the world. More proof that the TSX is just a simple rebadge job and that Acura has more in common with Chevrolet than any tier 1 luxury maker.

dj Dozhe

I remember my 98 Ford Taurus with it's sweet 3.0 Liter V6. Now THAT was luxury.

human668

TSX is not designed for US. The 4cyl engine actually fit well in Japan and Europe. As long as TSX being built in Japan, I don't think we get any option on engine. TSX is not selling well enough to get Honda attention to open a separate production line for America.
I think it's more possible that Acura provides a supercharger as a dealer option. Just like Toyota does on Scion tC.

shubysingh

for a sub $35k v6 luxury car, why not go for a tl?
of course youll give up nav but if u want nav, its $36ish.

i can understand if they bump up the tl to compete with the 5 series people would want a v6 tsx, but i dont see that happening.

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

Not everyone wants a larger car with less responsive steering and extra weight.

TSX420J

I also think they should have made it AWD or even RWD , 7 speed transmission
with 20-30 hp more than what is currently offered @ $32-33,000.00 non navi
33-35,000.00 w/navi. I would definitely be satisfied with the machine and price.

ex2k4

it sounds like you're talking about G35s.

White92

That V6 engine also only produce 200hp. Not 205 like the 4cyl TSX.

White92

They did make improvements. Additional hp is not the only improvement to be made. They improved the gas mileage and the car is now ULEV instead of LEV. And we only lost 4hp that I doubt anybody would even notice. No easy task in my book.

riontegra

iTrader: (2)

That's not true. That Accord is essentially the same car as my 02 TL and my car is a boat. In fact, the current gen TL is SMALLER than the 99-03 TL.

Also, contrary to all the negative comments in here, I think the new TSX will sell very well. It is a really unique vehicle that no one else offers. What other Japanese company offers a FWD 4 cylinder luxury brand with good passenger volume and value pricing? In light of the record high oil prices, I think the 4 cylinder will appeal to more consumers and they are doing the right thing to offer the diesel engine here next year. I know I will be in line when that happens.

As for those of you who are disappointed in the lack of RWD or AWD, why not consider a G35 or an IS? After all, the 09 TSX is now about the same size as the G35 (within ~1”). Personally, I prefer the FWD because of the weather here in Boston. And for those arguing for RWD and snow tires, that is just not feasible. I live in a 2 bedroom condo and I cannot justify the extra cost twice a year to mount/dismount them and pay to have them stored all year (different sets during different seasons). As for AWD, I am unwilling to pay neither the price premium nor the mileage penalty and decreased passenger/cargo volume.

There are always consequences or side effects of adding something. Want a V6? Then expect to pay more for the car, at the pump, and have diminished handling. Want RWD or AWD? Then expect smaller passenger volume and worse fuel economy due to greater drivetrain loss & vehicle weight. Unfortunately, consumers will be looking at fuel economy more than ever, even in premium vehicles. Why do you think Mercedes and BMW are considering alternative fuel vehicles and Lexus is offering hybrids? With the market so saturated already by other makes, I don’t think Acura needs to offer a V6 RWD vehicle at this point. I predict that even the anticipated AWD 09 TL will have limited success. The majority of buyers are not likely willing to sacrifice the fuel economy and fork over the extra 1-2K to upgrade for what will be a minimum gain in traction over the FWD model.

So complain all you want, but there will be a large market for the new TSX. It is proven that enthusiasts, like those on this board, are a small minority of the overall car owners’ population. Take Scion for example, they solicited and listened to exactly what the enthusiasts wanted, but ultimately current generation xB and xD cars have lost their original appeal and sales have fallen 25%, despite just being recently introduced. http://www.autospies.com/news/A-Tale...-Jaguar-21701/ You may argue that the Scion crowd is in totally different league, but I’m making the inference that just because people think they want something doesn’t mean that they necessarily will end up buying it. Just my ...

dom

Very well written post. I agree with all of it except for the fact....

09 TSX - 21/30 - 24
08 A4 - 21/30 - 23
08 328 - 19/29
C300 - 18-26
IS250 - 21/29 in AT or 18/26 in MT
9-3 - 19/29


So while the TSX is fuel efficient, its not much more efficient than its more powerful RWD or AWD competitors. I don't see anything to be overly impressed about in the 2.4.

Colin

The part about it being the only NA 4 cylinder in the group you mentioned isn't noteworthy? Only Honda could pull this off and if anything it emphasizes Honda's true spirit. Jumping on the V-6 RWD bandwagon would be very 'un-hondalike' if you ask me.

wackura

Was that 98-02 Accord V6 realy weaker than the TSX 4 cylinder? Less torque? Wow. When I park next to one it strikes me as a smaller car.

dom

Shouldn't the fact that its a NA 4 make it much more fuel efficient? Lets not forget it has much less torque.

I guess it has weight working against it.

I'm not getting into this all over again. The car will sell as well or better than the current model. No question and I guess thats all that matters. But I just can't bring myself to be at all impressed by any aspect of this car.

davidspalding

Not to deride this but ... we were promised to be impressed with the 2009 makeover? It was written somewhere that the 2009 makeover was going to be groundbreaking, or a big splash, or a bigger-badder-better version? Honest question here.

Colin

Don't get me wrong, I am somewhat underwhelmed by what we've seen so far, but I will reserve final judgment till I've driven the car.

I just want to give credit where credit is due. Honda does a damn fine job competing with turbo 4s and 6s with this combo. I see a roughly 10% improvement in fuel economy over most of the cars listed, and this corresponds to a roughly 10% drop in HP, and it's a ULEV. It is encouraging that the new car gets similar economy to the old car, maybe they've kept the weight in check?

OUTATIME

I think many of us are jumping the gun here, because there's probably more to come from Acura as far as higher trims, Type-S, etc. This can't be all they have to offer after the hype they've given us. I just kinda feel like that press release leaked sooner than it should have, or their marketing camp needs an entire re-org in general. Keep in mind, we don't know how the TSX will affect the TL or vice versa, so that may also be a factor as to why we're not seeing any further info.

dom

Blame Colin.

dadn4sc

I agree with there being more to come. I mean, how can you have 2 versions of the accord and not 2 tsx's? i just wish they wouldnt delay the releases, especially since im looking for a car at the end of the year! - what can i say, im selfish!

darmok

We already know there are going to be two versions of the TSX: a normally aspirated four and a turbo four. The first is petrol and the second is diesel. Who knows what that diesel will be like?

BTW... it will have a six-speed auto:

Honda's UK site has a page for the new Accord with lots of interesting stuff including 360s.

darmok

Their German site has something up too including a neat computer-generated flyaround of the car. (That's gotta be CG, right?) Some nice pictures in the brochure too.

riontegra

iTrader: (2)

Sweet But what are these things I circled in red????

LaZyPiGgY

The six-speed auto sounds great, but I feel like its a typo because the photos all show a 6 speed MT, and on the interactive UK site link you gave, the specs says either a 6 speed MT or a 5 speed AT so yeah.

On another note, the blue lighting in the interior looks great. Prefer it much more over red.

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

That's hardly an improvement when the car is going to weigh a couple hundred pounds more. And honestly, no very few buyers of the TSX look at the ULEV rating and say to themselves, "Ooh, I'll take that over the LEV rating on the Audi A4." That's a terrible argument.

As for fuel mileage, a 1 MPG gain is hardly something to write home about. You would get that just by tweaking the timing on your current car. And you can just as easily do that with transmission gearing without changing the motor at all. That minute improvement is not worth the loss of performance that this car will have overall.

This is not an improvement in any sense for this car. They needed to, at the very least, add a little horsepower to keep this cars performance numbers where it was at before. The minute increase in torque and the slight improvement in gas mileage are hardly sufficient justification for buyers to want this car. Plus, the A4 2.0T gets similar gas mileage numbers and tons more torque and is going into a B8 chassis with is said to be lighter than the B7 chassis.

For Honda, this just was not a smart tweak to this car. Not by any means an improvement.

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

Honda spirit is all fine and dandy, but why up the weight of the car and make it look ugly? Was that really necessary?

Colin

Looks are subjective, and I haven't seen the TSX weight listed yet.

xenonhid

Good number of people on the forum voted the 2009 TSX exterior as going in the wrong direction and unatrractive: i.e.

-kitchenaid grill

-hideous arched fenders as opposed to having swelled fenders like BMW and Audis.

-"Bloated" design similar to CAMRYs and ALTIMAs

Colin

True, but the greatest number of people in that survey are waiting to see it in the flesh... er steel. Sorry but I do get tired of the hypocrisy on most forums lately. This my opinion only so treat it as such: You cannot point to the fender style and say they are different than the Sports 4 that everyone seems to love.

Its like the earlier photos comparing it to the camry. (Again my opinion) there is more similarity to the Sports 4 than the Camry and I don't see people saying that Toyota copied the Sports 4 with the Camry.

xenonhid

^^ Oh Colin you could be right, I guess you are feeling more optimistic since you hawaiians get 80 degree weather almost all year.


Seriously, I try to justify and like the design but it ends up being rationalizations more than anything.

Sadly, we shouldn't have to justify for this kind of design.


Maybe this is a Test for Acura, they need to listen to their consumers, although sounds simple and common sense tactic, is not practiced throughout ALL the corporate and business world which differentiates the level of success that some companies achieve while some do not.

Colin

See thats the whole thing. If they copied the swelling fenders of BMW and Audi as you mention, you'd have half the board complaining that Acura is only copying them and they need to get real designers.

If they leave the car alone, more will complain that the cars are great but have boring styling. Well, its not boring now!

Honda does listen to customers, they've systematically reduced the HP and increased the torque of most of the 'fun' cars in response to 'American' tastes. They produced the J series V-6 after stubbornly saying that the Accord only 'needed' a 4 cylinder. They made the Ridgeline after years of saying that they won't make a pick up truck.

As they've grown, they are forced the try to please everybody and this is the problem. I wish I was selling them back in the days when the CRX came in 3 colors, Red, White and Blue. All of them had gray interiors and if you didn't like it you went elsewhere. It "naturally selected" hardcore Hondaphiles.

Honda of the Eighties and early Nineties was like that and this is when the reputation was forged. As they've grown, there are people pulling them in all directions and they are trying to please too many people and seem (if you read this and other boards) to be pleasing none.

[rant]I say screw all the torque addicts, make every car rev to 9000 RPM, mate it to only a 6 speed manual, and let me go out and enjoy my 80 degree day! [/rant]