Nedmundo

As I've posted here many times, I generally love my TSX, but I dislike its numb steering. I figured BMW would probably do a better job with electrically assisted steering, so, to find out, I tested a new 328i with sport line and manual transmission. Surprisingly, the BMW's steering is lighter than the TSX's steering, and might even produce less road feel. It's very different from the wonderfully tactile steering found in earlier generations, and this, combined with BMW's effort to mute the four cylinder's sound, produce a more isolated driving experience than the TSX, at least IMO. I was truly surprised.

Can the TSX match the BMW's perfect balance? Of course not, but at safe speeds on public roads, the difference is less than one might expect.

Going into the test drive, I feared I would be disappointed to get back into my TSX. Happily, that was not the case; rather, I've ended up appreciating my TSX even more than I did before. I might keep it longer than I expected.

HondoGermany

and how much cost a BMW 328 Sportline in comparison to the TSX?

ed_423

Great comparison!

Nedmundo

This one's MSRP was around $42k, which on the 3 Series Sport Line qualifies as a stripper: no moonroof; no folding rear seats; no power seats; no electronic extras (nav, parking sensors, upgraded stereo, etc.). The only options beyond the Sport Line (similar to the old Sport Package) were leather, heated seats, heated steering wheel, metallic paint, and maybe xenons. I think it's really cool of this dealer to order a lightly-optioned Sport Line with 6MT. Most don't order enthusiast-friendly configurations like that.

I should clarify that, apart from the numb steering and somewhat isolated feel, this car is fantastic. BMW will sell zillions. But it doesn't provide the same visceral driving satisfaction as prior 3 Series, which, IMO, is the only reason to spend the substantial cash on a BMW in the first place. Many others, however, buy BMW's for different reasons, and those people will love it. I do trust BMW will improve the steering, and if they do, I might bite.

Hopefully Acura will improve its steering as well for the TSX's successor...whatever that turns out to be!

opboarding

Glad to hear this, good comparisons. When shopping for cars about a year ago, I was also surprised at much less you get compared to the TSX on audi and bmw, on top of adding 10k onto the price tag.

What year TSX do you have? 09-10 steering is a little different from the 11-12. I have absolutely no complains about my 11's steering.

Acura_Dude

I enjoyed reading the quick comparison between the 2 cars. It was helpful.

komplexZ

HondaGuy347

Yup, saw a new 328i at my local dealer. Sports/premium/cold weather packs and not much else. $44k. That's $16k more than I paid for my TSX. I might pay $5k more for the BMW, but $16k? F that.

oldsnwbrdr

Good post. Just picked up a TSX, and I'm no longer "afraid" of 4-cylinders, especially for this size of car.

My only "complaint" about the TSX is the engine sound, which is obviously 4-cylinder. I'd like to see that quieted down and retuned, as BMW has obviously done. I'm anxious to experience a 328 for myself.

I wouldn't consider myself an enthusiast driver but I agree about the TSX's numb steering. Keeping the car centered in a straight line isn't as effortless as it should be.

Otherwise I'm really enjoying the car. Even my non-tech has more features than the Mercedes C300 I traded. My 18-year old son is wearing out the paddle shifters!

notfound123

My wife and I drove all three -A4, 328 and TSX- before deciding on the TSX. Price and the fact that the base model had everything we needed (didn't get the nav) made it a no-brainer purchase.

pinatubo

I've test-driven all A4, BWM3, InfiG37, TSX, and LexusIS250 and decided to go with the TSX. Reasons:
+ price
+ features
+ fuel efficiency

If I had more money (to match feature-wise and premium gas price) I would pick the BMW.

jchan2

This is interesting- I'm about to go try a 328i today due to BMW's Drive Event. It's supposed to be a comparison between the 328 and A4, so we'll see how that goes since before/after I'll be driving my TSX.

turning japanese

imho, if Honda made the TSX as a RWD (or AWD), put a blower on the 4 or offered a diesel with gobs of torque, it could outsell the BMW 328i and the Audi A4 except to people who are badge hunting. Material refinements would help, too (better paint quality, better seats, etc.) although that would up the price too much probably. If they could still keep the MSRP within $5-7k of the Germans, they'd have an edge. Right now the real thing that keeps the TSX as a choice for a lot of people over the 3 series is primarily the out-the-door pricing. Honda knows that very well.

All that said, the new BMWs (F30, F10) have had their suspension and steering rack toned down very noticeably. They're trying to compete with the C class and E Class Mercedes in 'ride comfort.' I had considered the F10 when it was first introduced and was very disappointed. It's nothing like the previous E60 5 series. The F10 didn't have the visceral quality (like the E60) that made BMW the "Ultimate Driving Machine." I haven't yet tried the F30 since I decided to try out Honda and stay away from the Germans for a while.

I've owned Audis (including the RS6) and I got tired of the constant visits to the shop for all sorts of failures that seem to plague VAG products.

ceb

Fixed it for you.

German cars are wonderful when they work, but you get a very close and personal relationship with your service advisor.

My TSX has about 6500 miles and is coming up to the A1 service. I'll have them address a dash squeak/rattle, a rattle somewhere in back and a TPMS warning light that comes up sometimes when it rains. All minor issues

At 2000 miles, my 335 got the first new fuel pump. At 4800 it was time for pump number two. A vanos valve followed around 6000 miles and the third fuel fuel pump failed around that time as well. Each failure took a few visits because most errors couldn't be duplicated the first visit.

For a daily driver, my under $35k TSX wagon beats my $60k 335xi hands down

Nedmundo

Amen to that! I've thought this too. Lexus makes the mainstream FWD ES and more performance oriented RWD/AWD IS models, which occupy similar price ranges, and Acura could do something similar. It could continue with the FWD/AWD TL, and make something like the TSX RWD with a punchy DI turbo four, and take a nice chunk from the 3 Series, C Class, etc.

Really, now that Toyota and Subaru have bestowed upon us a reasonably priced, reliable, light, RWD sports car, somebody needs to give us a comparable sports sedan. Sadly, I doubt it will be Honda/Acura.

pinatubo

I just wonder when Honda will start building engine with DI tech.
It seems like they are just behind if not far behind.

ceb

Direct Injection isn't the great technology that some seem to think it is. It raises new issues that haven't been properly addressed yet - primarily buildup in the valve train.

The easiest way for Honda to increase driveability and to modernize their fleet is to include 6 speed automatic transmissions

turning japanese

Many people (including myself) see DFI as kind of a step not forwards and not really backwards, but just another attempt at trying to increase mpg by the manufacturers in order to get good EPA numbers. It's all about CAFE rules.

Carbon buildup is a major concern. Porsche went that route and it wasn't very well received. With current DFI motors it's been important to use fuel with cleaning additives such as Techron (with DFI the intake doesn't get washed with fuel since it's sprayed.) Ask Audi owners about intake buildup (and BMW owners, too.) They were 'forced' to be early adopters.

That said, if implemented correctly (and it has been improved over time now) it may be that carbon buildup will be a thing of the past in modern direct fuel injection motors. But there's no real compelling reason (performance-wise) to have DFI, imho.

I agree that a better transmission is a more sensible way to save fuel and have better performance. A dual clutch type or even just a few more cogs would be good.

mmafighta

I'm not so sure about the steering. The steering gets stiff @ like cruising speed, 30ish and up....But you're right @ parking lot speed, the steering is a lot looser, but not as loose as my TSX @ any speed.

As for the acceleration...No brainer, the new 328 is pretty damn quick...Faster than my G35 from a dig. As for the interior...This is where I feel BMW made drastic improvements over the last generation. Material feels nicer, and feels better put together compared to the TSX. I'm really liking the new 328.

Not trying to put your review down, I mean I own a TSX myself..But just calling it how it is. Thats all.

BonusBen

The TSX torque steer and gets alot of understeer when pushed which is a big minus for me!!!

turning japanese

Same here. This is the first FWD I've owned. And it will definitely be the last. FWD has no value, imho. Except that it's a lot cheaper for the manufacturer (it's a less expensive to build drive train.)

I've had the car a week and half now. It's a very decent daily driver for the price. But people are deluding themselves if they think this is a sports sedan. That's not saying anything against the car, but it's simply not a performance/sport type of vehicle at all.

Nedmundo

Since you have a 2009 TSX, I'm not surprised you would think the 328i's steering is heavier, at least in sport mode.

Acura tightened up the steering for 2010, I think largely to address complaints about poor path control on the highway. Then, some complained it was too heavy at low speeds, and mine is pretty heavy in the parking lot, parallel parking, etc. I recently had a 2012 as a loaner, and its steering is much lighter than mine at slow speeds, but feels identical on the highway, so it appears Acura found a happy medium -- within this EPS system at least.

pinatubo

It is one of the disappointment for sure.

pinatubo

I hope after those years, they, car manuf. have solved those problems with DI related. No matter what, DI seems to be a trend for up-coming cars now from every other manuf. except Honda, even Mazda and Hyundai have their lineup.
Put aside those downsides (which should be fixed by now, hopefully), isn't DI offering better mileage, better HP, better torque?

Offering 6-speed automatic transmission will definitely not win the heart of customers, at least on the marketing term.
Does Sonata have 6-speed auto trans?

Rocket_man

Honda will start selling DFI engines later this year in the new Accord and in time the TL/TSX/TLX.

ceb

Can you quote your source?

Honda bets its reputation on reliability. Until a technology is proven reliable, it is very unlikely that you'll find it in a mainstream Honda product.

ceb

The average Acura customer would have no clue what DI is - they are interested in reasonably priced luxury and - in the case of the TSX - decent gas mileage. The average customer knows nothing about gear ratios or why a 6 or 7 speed transmission is more efficient.

tvac

Honda Finally Adds Direct Injection to V6 and 4 cyl engines:

http://blog.caranddriver.com/honda-f...inder-engines/

ceb

How does "When exactly we’ll see these engines and transmissions in showrooms hasn’t been announced, but we expect them to start entering the lineup sometime in the next two years" correlate to "later this year"?

tvac

So, the dateline for the blog is November 29, 2011. The technology is production ready and the vehicles it will show up on are on deck. The point is Honda/Acura is doing DI.

notfound123

Sorry for asking stupid questions... but I thought all recently manufactured engines were built upon the DI technology. If Honda's engines are not DI, what kind of injection are they?

tvac

Honda currently uses a standard fuel injection system (PGMFI/PGM-FI). The basic difference is that while Direct Injection sprays the fuel directly into the combustion chamber, standard fuel injection sprays the fuel in the air stream of the intake runner, usually close to or onto the intake valve(s). There are several flavors of standard fuel injection, including Sequential and Throttle Body but that's the basic difference. Diesels have always used DI.

turning japanese

Mfgs have used various types of injection systems such as continuous, multi point, central port, single point. The common Bosch K-Jetronic found in German cars (BMW, Porsche, Mercedes, Audi) is a continuous system where the fuel flows at a variable flow rate instead of a short pulse rate.

With direct injection there is no mixing of fuel and air at the intake valve. The fuel is sprayed under high pressure directly into the combustion chamber. They are common rail systems that return unused fuel back to the tank (a closed circuit that was mandated in the US in 2003 by the EPA, I believe.)

DFI costs more to implement and has the drawback of not allowing fuel to 'wash' the intake which will build up carbon over time. This has been noted in Audi motors and also the DFO motors in later model Porsches. In fact, the Porsche dealers are recommending an 'intake cleaning service' to be done on a periodic basis.

DFI is about fuel savings and adhering to CAFE rules. Squeezing every little bit of fuel savings across the entire fleet has been behind the push for all these 'tricks' to get better mpg or face big fines.

I'm not sure what system Honda/Acura uses (I'm a newbie to the brand) but I'm assuming a multi-port system. Somebody else can probably answer that (or you can call Honda in Torrance.)

EDIT: oops, sorry, somebody already answered all this (beat me too it.)

turning japanese

sorry, keyboard typo.... not 'DFO' but DFI, duh.

Robert4

The main advantage of DI is that it allows higher compression ratios and thus somewhat more torque for any given fuel octane. For example, newer Hyundai Sonatas have DI and run regular gas with 11:1 compression.

As an interesting aside, Lexus IS350, GS350 and LS460 engines incorporate DI but also have port injectors.

Several, mainly European, car engines of the last 3 decades have had serious problems with hard intake port and valve face deposits even with port injection. Engine design and tuning that limits intake reversion may be the answer.

turning japanese

I didn't realize it also means higher compression at lower octane.

fwiw, the newer DFI Porsche motors have a Siemens built management system for the injection that increases compression to around 12:5, but it still is mapped for only high octane fuel.

Robert4

12.5:1 would be pretty much unsustainable on unleaded pump gasoline without DI.

I need to correct myself here, the sonata DI engine actually has 11.3:1 compression.

pinatubo

I do agree with this, average customers (not only Acura but every others) have no clue of what DI is or even stands for but I do strongly believe if the vehicle listed as 40mpg, 280hp, 300lbs-torque will win the debate heavily over ones with 30mpg, 250hp, 200lbs-torque regardless 5, 6, 7 or 8-speed transmission, do you agree?

jazzguru

Just purchased a 2012 TSX last week after deciding between a TSX, BMW 328, Audi A4 and a Mercedes C class.

Ultimately I just couldn't see paying 10k+ more for these cars (not to mention the options that come standard with the TSX). Only the 328 could offer better gas milage, but the RWD was not attractive.

When it comes down to it I didn't see how the $10k was buying anything more than a name. My 2006 TSX never gave me one problem through 160k+ miles.

=====
2012 TSX w/Tech
2010 MDX w/Tech
Previous:
2006 TSX
1997 Integra

turning japanese

I come from a long line of German cars (still have a few in the garage) but bought the TSX sport wagon for a change of pace.

For economy of ownership and pure reliability there's no question the TSX is an obvious choice. But I disagree 100% that the extra $10k is about only the badge. There's a real difference between the brands particularly in respect to the planted feel and solidity (especially with freeway driving but also in the twisties), that the Japanese cars lack. I use the analogy of the feel of a plastic wind-up toy versus a solid wooden toy.

That said, the TSX is good buy and once you get one, just drive it and quit comparing (even comparing BMW and Audi is somewhat fruitless since they have their own obvious characteristics.)