CJITTY

Update:

Here are the findings after I had a lengthy discussion with Todd and Dan at Ingalls..the company is right here in Colorado about 30 miles from me

I was the guinea pig and found out the hard way that even though I have an 03 TL, my car does not have "unequal" arm lengths. Alll four rear factory arms are identical in length.

Bottom line is this:
If your TL has unequal factory arm lengths = Use 38725 part #
If your TL has EQUAL factory arm lengths (all four the same size) = Use 38720

For more insight..keep reading.

The issue appears to be a slight suspension change by Acura/Honda sometime in 03. My vehicle was made in January 2003 and appears I still have the 99-02 same length control arms.

Lucky for me, my shop did not charge me a penny for the 2.5 hrs of labor while they tried to get my 38725 kit to fit. The install should take under an hour, but they tried different combinations to get this to work and spent some time on it. So I tipped the tech and bought a box of chicken for the whole crew. The least I could do.

Back on topic, the issue was the longer arm (toe control) would fight against the shorter camber rod control to stay within spec. The tech adjusted each rod a little here/little there trying to tweak it, but it could not align at all. So, they experimented and installed the two shorter rods (one from each 38725 kit) onto one side (wheel) of my car. With those two shorter rods, the car aligned perfectly on that one side.

So, the 38720 kit has two rods for each kit. Both rods are the same length and just slightly shorter than the short rod of the 38725 kit. Did I lose you? Stay with me....almost done. So, according to the Ingalls guys, my car will use the 38720 kit.

In fact, with my lesson learned, Ingalls has updated their website to reflect this change, as you'll see highlighted in yellow.
http://www.ingallseng.com/cars/acura.html

I hope this helps. This camber kit design is very strong and will end my rear camber nightmare. Ingalls also told me that when I come by to exchange my parts, they will put my car on the rack for me, just to confirm. But, I believe we found out the underlying issue. Measure your control arms and know which one to get. The 03 is an 03, but may have 99-02 control arms....

I'll update this once I get the 38720 kit installed.

There is a group buy going on for this, so contact our trusty vendor Excelerate to order one..here is the sale link if you want it. Just wanted to make sure you all got this important update.
https://acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=352963

Good luck, don't be afraid to buy this kit if you have a 99-03 TL, just have to get under your car to measure your control arms.

CJITTY

5/7/07 Update!!

I just got back from the Ingalls company here in Louisville, Colorado. Todd and Dan are great guys! They pulled my car into their R&D bay and got it up on the lift. Here is the verdict to put this issue to rest. Even though I have an 03 TL Type S, I have 2002 suspension parts on the rear based on my rear subframe setup. My car was final produced in 2003, even though probably most of it is 2002.

They told me that an easier way to determine which kit you need if you have a late year produced 2002 or early 2003 produced TL, here is what to look for.

If looking underneath your car from the rear:

If the lower control arms are somewhat in-line (parallel) with each other, you will have the 2002 parts and need the 38720 kit. One of the arms is very slightly higher than the other.

If the lower control arms are clearly offset (one much higher than the other), then you have the newer suspension and you will require the 38725 kit.

I hope this helps, they swapped out my 38725 kit for the 38720 kit with no questions asked, even though I got them from an internet retailer. Great company, great product.

CJITTY

Ok, here is a pic that should help a little more.

The red areas are the two control arms that are the 99-02 parts setup.

The green area is the appx location of the one control arm that is longer and appx where it sits on the newer updated suspension. The vertical green circle is just a guess as to the mount location of the one arm.

The red circles on mine show that I have a little height difference between the two control arms, but the guys at Ingalls said there will be a very noticeable difference in how one arm is much higher than the other.

ChrisQ1980

My car was produced 4/03 and I just went ouside and it looks exactly like yours. Now you are going to have me crawling under every 03 I see. lol

Are you sure part numbers arent different for Premium and Type S? Maybe thats the difference because the TL-S has a slightly different suspension than the premium.

CJITTY

^^^^
LOL Chris!!

Keep in mind, nobody has been able to tell me the cutoff date for the newer design suspension. For some reason, I still think all 99-03 should have the same setup, but Ingalls is pretty sure they had a slight modification sometime in 2003. The day the car comes off the line determines the year, so I feel the core of my car is a 2002, but rolled off the line in 2003.

If yours looks just like mine, you need the 38720 kit. I don't believe the suspensions for the premium and Type S are that different besides slightly stiffer shocks and thicker sway bar. The control arms I believe should be the same.

CJITTY

Update for June 2, 2007:

Finally got my two 38720 kits installed on the rear of my 2003 TL Type S this past Saturday. Brakes Plus installed them in very short order and aligned me up perfectly!! I am dead on center for factory specs in the rear camber now, toe is right on as well. The kit actually helped to improve my front wheel camber/toe also because the rear changes actually changes the overall car setup. Camber is in the center for range in front and the toe is pretty much center in the front also.

So, no more butterfly effect with my rear wheels, they are perfect now and look great! Ingalls makes a good product and the install should take 20 min or so per side.

Best advice to tell your installer is to remove factory arms and assemble new arms so that the bolt holes line up with the new arms, apply anti-seize grease on the threads and then install the new arms on the car..a couple tweakes with both arms will get toe and camber right on for factory specs.

I can say the car rides nicer and I have slightly less road noise. I think because the full tread is making contact and the noise reduction technology in the tire tread design is working how it is supposed to. I did notice an improvement in my overall ride and appearance on how the car looks from the rear!

mr.motoring

Interesting stuff! I'm gonna crawl under my 03 TL-S to see what's up.

I wonder if this rear suspension change is related to the abnormal rear toe-wear problems that caused recalls with early 2004 TLs. The third gen TL uses the 38725 kit, the same one used by supposed later 2003 TLs.

CJITTY, how much finger gap were you riding on in the rear to cause the wear problems?

CJITTY

I have just barely less than two finger gap all around the car. My front/rear camber has slightly gone out of spec over the last 3 years or so since putting in my HR Sports. I am sure it is from springs settling and strut life decreasing, but either way my camber was over a full degree out...no more! I'm right on factory rear camber suggestion of 0.5 degrees! I never had an issue with alignments, just in the past year or so I noticed my alignments kept getting further out of spec, these rear kits took care of all my issues, even in the front due to the car sitting better in the rear.

AMGala

iTrader: (4)

I'm going to be putting Eibach Pro Kit springs (-2.1"F / -1.6"R) with new Tokico blues. Do you think I need a camber kit? For both the front and rear?

lostkhan

im Putting Tein- Stech with Koni Yello,which is also 2.1F and 1.6R , Do i need Camber Kit too?

fsttyms1

Only way to tell for sure is to have an alignment afterwards. Most likely yes

CJITTY

As I have mentioned in other posts, initially I did not need a camber kit. But over time and as the springs fully settled, I fell out of spec and noticed uneven wear on my inner edges of my rear tires. The rear camber kit fixed that. Get the alignment and see where you are. If you are in the green factory spec range, you are fine. Once you get into the red out of spec zone, then you should either be rotating them at least every oil change. The complete left/right kits are about $120-$130, plus appx $100 for install including alignment. The labor rate is appx 20 min per side. It's very easy, and you can do yourself, but I recommend having the place do it right on the alignment rack. The wheels do not need to be removed, at least my Ingalls kits didn't require that. Some other kits may though.

AMGala

iTrader: (4)

Thanks!

Neejay

iTrader: (3)

I know this is 3 years old, but it's good information. I have a 03 Type-S, and I got under there and measured (car is lowered, didn't jack up, didn't remove wheels) and it appears that all 4 of my arms are 10.5"+/-.

Pics are obviously down, but I THINK I need part# 38720 (EQUAL)

How can I tell what month my car was built? There isn't a date in the doorjam, just the VIN with some other details. How can I tell what month my car was built? I know it was 81,970 based on the last 6 digits of the VIN.

If you just go to the ingalls site for applications, it automatically defaults to 38725 (UN-EQUAL).

Excelerate

iTrader: (1)

It's pretty straightforward. If you have equal length arms then you need 38720; if you have different length arms you need 38725.

AlanW

If I understand this correctly, the problems started from installing the H&R Sport Spring set??
I thought camber kits were not need for H&R Sports??

Neejay

iTrader: (3)

Cool. I wasn't sure if it was a cm/mm difference or if it was a noticeable difference between equal and unequal.

Eh...I think if you stay up to date on your alignments, you might be ok. I think it's recommended to get one every 6 months. My tires were on their last leg anyway, but they ended up wearing down to the wire/thread on the insides of the front. Also be sure to have them rotated as well.

CJITTY

Yup, exactly..I probably could of said that way back when I discovered this whole issue Glad the info is still helpin folks out though. I'm still on these kits and alignments are a breeze..exceptional tire wear and my car is probably 2" or more lower than stock after all these years of settling

CJITTY

There is a significant difference in the arm lengths, so if yours measured out the same, 38720 is the way to go