69tl

I have 02 TLS and i low it bout 6 months ago with H&R Springs. now my front driver side inner tire are going bald, and it keeps losing air on the tire, took it to the tire shop and they said they wouldn't touch it due to the tire is bald. so here is what i need from you guy expert, i need to get my alignment fix before i get myself a new set of tire, does the tire shop can fix my alignment or do i need to get myself a camber kit??


please help
and Thanx so much in Advance

Edward'TLS

I had an alignment done after installing Illumina and H&R OE. The front aligned ok, but the rear camber just marginally. So any lower, you have to get a camber kit.

derrick

You might need a camber kit ... too much toe in. Whomever did your alignment after the drop should have told you that you have too much negative camber. Plus, do more tire rotations to prevent such premature wear of tires (every 6000 miles or so).

69tl

my buddy and I did the drop ourself. so does anybody know where can i get the camber kit and how much do you guy think it would cost??

thankyou so much in advance again

derrick

SPC has a camber kit. You need the front ones if only your front tires are shreded. I think they're around ~$150 for a pair. Do a search ...

Mongolian

or get what i have. they work wonders =)

luxurycarson20s

hey u should look at my thread, we are having the same exact problems, its not the camber, its the toe, and we need to figure out how to keep the toe adjust so it doesnt go outta spec, camber should be between .-10 and .10, mine is fine at .-8, so im in spec, but toe should be between -.10 and -10, mine was at .30, so its not camber its the toe issue, i have a 3 year alignment plan, so i take full advantage of it, i go every 2000 miles to have an alignment, and rotation done. here is my thread if it helps....

https://acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117950

99TLHeather

You shld set your front toe to .00 both sides or -.01 both sides. The rear shld have some toe in like -.08 on both sides.

DiegosAnotherR1

How low can a person go, with out the need of a camber kit?

Michael03TLS

Haha I am not going to post anything too much this time as Luxurycarson20 posted his older thread and it had me saying a load of information for you to read and digest the problems with your alignment

Be aware that the SPC(specialty products) camber ball joint kit will solve your camber problems if you are not slammed with more than ~2.5" of height drop. IF you are lowered A LOT in the front , your control arm may "bottom out" and it hits/damages the inner fender/shock mount tower in the front of your car's wheelwell gaps. In this case, Ingalls front adjustable control arms for camber correction kit is your better bet for fixing FRONT camber problems, IF you are slammed in the front. Secondly, like Luxurycarson20 said, you're toe and probably camber is both out; read my reply there in his link:

My previous alignment replies:
My previous reply on alignment

Here's some information for Front Adjustable Ingalls control arms:
Ingall front adjustable control arms for camber correction kit
Here also:
https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...stable+control


Also to note: Luxurycarson20 typed it incorrectly. Camber ranges for "within specifications" are between "-1.0 to +1.0". Ideally camber reading should be 0 AND TOE adjustments are 0 also between ".-10 and .10". Any TOE adjustment problems, which I had correct on my lowered car, will affect your tires severely if left uncorrected. I am guessing you have camber and toe problems. TOE adjustments, I believe you can use those "bolts" on the lower control arms to adjust. What your previous alignment guy did not know was probably that you could in fact adjust TOE readings on TL's, but he left yours alone which is why your tires wear are having possible problems.

Heather said:
I have to correct Heather's rear specifications for the REAR TOE readings: range is between 0 to .30 . Perfectly set should be .15 for both sides . There is a default (comes from factory reading) rear camber reading of -0.5 setting on the rear tires; it is between the range of -1.0 to 1.0.


IF you look in the groupbuy, there is some vendor guy selling SPC camber correction kits , for front and back for around ~150US shipped. You'll have to search it in this forum because I don't have the link handy. You need a "balljoint press or possibly a pitman arm press -if it has a decent, small claw arm" to do the ball joint yourself in the front or camber arm in the back without destroying the old OEM factory parts; you could of course destroy it if you never will use the part again, but if you find/use the right tools, it's a better way to do it and save the old parts --> using a ball joint fork will likely tear your balljoint grease boot.
A DIY (do-it-yourself) Guide:
http://www.@curaworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18736
You have to change the @ to "a"

Camber issue FAQ's
You can also buy your Camber kit arms here also.

Here also:
www.tmegineering.net
Just find lowest price and Todd will match.

Here's another:
http://www.hyperformanceauto.com/SPC-Alignment-Kit-for-Acura-TL-32L-1999---02-P5971C1747.aspx

Just remember SPC font camber kit is good for cars NOT slammed extremely low, otherwise go Ingalls Adjustable Control arms for camber correction.

Hope this helps. Just read all that stuff and your set to go to solve the problem. Good luck and if in doubt, take it to an Acura dealership to do your alignment properly. A bit more expensive but you know they are going to do it right and ask for their senior technician to do the alignment and you're set


also DiegosAnotherR1,

To be safe, I would say 1.0 -1.25" drop on the vehicle's height; sometimes you can get away with -1.5" all around too. Anything more I would say you need a camber kit. Some say they have gotten away with no camber kits with more than 1.5" height drop, but I would like to see proof --> like their readings of their alignment, tire wear, handling of vehicle. Some people are either misinformed, ignorant, cheap to not buy camber kits, or plain stupid unfortunately until they realize their tires are wearing unevenly or costing them sets of tires ( not to be demeaning but it's true). :wink:

Pure Adrenaline

iTrader: (2)

I have these nice bumps on my front shock towers, courtesy of the SPC camber kit. I'm switching to Ingalls soon as soon as I have money; they replace the entire upper control arm without the big ass bolt on top like the SPC kit. More clearance.

99TLHeather

Did you guys know that your front caster is adjustable with plates! My caster in the front is 2.00 left and 1.78 right. I want to increase to 2.35 both sides.

DiegosAnotherR1

You just answered every single one of my alignment questions. Thanks Brutha

Edward'TLS

If you read my post near the top, it said "I had an alignment done after installing Illumina and H&R OE. The front aligned ok, but the rear camber just marginally. So any lower, you have to get a camber kit."

So if you go lower than around 0.75" (OE is 0.75" according to H&R, but my car looks like it's slightly more than 0.75"), the rear camber cannot be adjusted to within OEM specs, and you'll need a camber kit.

Michael03TLS

Nope. Now I do thanks to your comment Heather


Also it doesn't let me edit my post but I spelled a vendor wrongly but here's the correction:
www.tmengineering.net
Just find lowest price and Todd will likely be able to match.


DiegosAnotherR1,
You're welcome; it's good that you're doing your research and asking questions which will put you on the right track to doing a correctly lowered and modified suspension and understanding the consequences of lowering your car So good work on being a

Michael03TLS

If Edward'TLS 's experience with the mildest height drop with H&R OE springs barely just made it without a camber kit, then I am really wondering what some guys are claiming that they can get away with no camber kits, rears or fronts, with H&R Sport springs then, with a 1.75" front and 1.5" back vehicle drop.

Here's another link for a description of H&R springs, their height drops, results of height drops and advantages( note- it doesn't state exactly what the drops are for our TL's in inches):
http://www.tirerack.com/suspension/hr_comp_chart.jsp

Secondly, if you look at Shimbo519's post here:
It says that H&R OE springs(most minimum drop for our 2G TL's) vehicle drop heights are "Drop: 1" F/1.25" R", so I am confused as to whether Edward'TLS figures are correct or Shimbo's? That's why I said that to be safe ( assuming Shimbo is correct), that a 1"-1.25" drop is okay without camber kit.
https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...t=sport+spring

From my personal experience with Tein coilovers, I dropped my front end at about ~2.1" inches (about a 1.5 finger gap between fender and top of tire) and my back end at about ~1.7( about 1 finger gap). So I am extrapolating from Shimbo's results/advice from the above link and my personal experience that it is only the BACK , in general, that will need a camber kit if the back is more than say ~1.3"-1.5" drop. Extreme, slammed vehicle drops will require BOTH camber kits. My front alignment readings with a ~2.1" drop was still within Acura factory specifications between the ranges of -1.0 to 1.0 ( mine at -.4 left and -.6 right wheels). As you can see, my front camber readings is almost getting close to -1.0, which is the MAX you can go for "within" tolerance. Ideally your camber should be 0 though; you can probably save money without the front camber kit.

derrick

Whoa ... Michael is the man for camber / toe issues. Great thread.

Michael03TLS

Hehe Derrick, I didn't know anything about camber, camber kits, lowering cars, springs or coilovers, alignment or any alignment readings before but after reading and "experiencing yourself" the actual issues, it's just second knowledge to pass on to others . It is of course a lot to read but helps out anyone seeking knowledge to make the best possible decisions and understanding their consequences of their decisions.


Just helping and sharing knowledge with other people as what this forum was meant to do and of course many thanks to those that helped me before, including that review of yours on tires/wheels Derrick.

Edward'TLS

Michael03TLS, I had my shocks and springs installed, and alignment done at the Acura dealership. The service guy, which I know well for many years, told me that the fronts still had room for more adjustment, but the rear camber had reached the adjustment limit and just barely made the factory spec.

When you said that "some guys are claiming that they can get away with no camber kits, rears or fronts, with H&R Sport springs then, with a 1.75" front and 1.5" back vehicle drop. ", I wonder what "get away" really means. Does it mean (1) they can align the wheels to within factory specs, or (2) they cannot align the wheels to within specs, but have no tire wear problem, or (3) they cannot align the wheels to within specs, and have minimal tire wear problem, or (4) they cannot align the wheels to within specs, and thought they have no tire wear problem because they have driven enough mileage ?

Michael03TLS

Interesting possiblities for those guys that claim they can do with more moderate or aggressive drops without camber kits. This is from what I've read that some people in this forum claim; I do not know the details of their situation.


(1) I think they can align the TOE out-of-specifications readings to within factory specifications, but my understanding is that the TL does not have factory arms/balljoints to adjust camber unless there are aftermarket arms/balljoints/control arms with camber adjustments. In this case for camber issues, it can be within factory specifications, without adjustments, if the car is not severely lowered , rather than being actually "aligned" at all OR the camber will indeed be out-of-tolerance range.

(2) I don't know about this possibility. If they could not align the wheels to "within" specifications, then there WILL be *some* uneven tire wear of some sort and I doubt there will be no tire wear problem. Assuming that Acura or other car manufacturers did do their research in regards to tolerances/ranges for alignment readings, such as camber, they would undoubtedly know what is the max it can be out-of-specifications before any tire issues show up, such as wearing unevenly. So basing on this premise, I would have to say they WILL have tire wear problems and I couldn't agree that they will have no tire wear problems. IF TOE was not within specifications, you will definitely have tire wear problems and FAST. IF camber was not adjusted "within" factory specifications, you will still get some uneven tire wear problem, although it may not surface up that fast or be quite minimal, inner tire wear; this of course depends on how much you are out of the "range".

(3) IF they couldn't align "within" factory specifications for camber, I could see some possibility of some minimal tire wear issues, although if the readings were out quite a bit from the range then the more severe the tire wear issues.
IF they couldn't align or didn't align, such as a mechanic that doesn't know about TOE adjustments on the TL, then I can see a tire having more than minimal tire wear and it's going to show up pretty fast. Case in point, like these guys in this TL forum seeking desperate help saying they need help with their tire wearing issues, after 6months or maybe even sooner, and their whole, inner tire is worn to the belts! They may have "thought they got away", but temporal factors caught up to them to make them realize down the road when the tire issue(s) surfaced.

(4) lol , this one is similar to the (3) issue of alignment problems but the statement igorance is bliss and mind over matter is at work here! If they actually drove enough mileage and they saw minimal tire wear issues/problems but they "thought" it was okay or normal, then it is okay indeed by their standards. Of course, if they used their minds to "think" they had no problems after so many miles, then it became a self-fulling prophecy that they will have no problems .

It is very well possible that they couldn't align it to within specifications and have no tire wear problems after so many miles of driving. A miracle is indubitably at work or a remarkable situation to note and worthy of scientific analysis as to why, how, what ,where, when, who.

However, if they drove a lot of mileage and the tire wore on the "inside unevenly", for example, and they thought it was just *normal* because they drove enough mileage, it is normal for inner tire wear for the trade-off of having negative camber for better vehicular stability and cornering, OR they "thought" it was due to their superior driving skills and high performance driving, then they could have also "thought" it was okay or normal. They decided to yield to the forces of ignorance, stupidity, parsimony, obliviousness to how cars work or thought that the negative camber/toe was good to kill tires and cost them money .


Thank you very much for the hypothetical situations to explore and provide intellectual pabulum for me to come up with some answers, which I hope you find satisfactory to clarify any ambiguities and covers a gamut of possibilities and it should further elaborate on "get away". I , of course , am not here to judge what people do, think, or claim.


The only thing I am uncertain of is the H&R OE spring drop in terms of inches. As you can see from my earlier link
https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...t=sport+spring
Shimbo519 claims:

AND Edward'TLS 's suggestions:
Of course if anyone knows exactly the drop in inches of the H&R OE springs, they are free to drop their two cents.