all-season VS dedicated winter tires review
 

Hey,

Since it is the season ... I might as well share some of the research that I've done the past little bit. This is all based upon the Type-S (215/50/17 Michelin MXM 93 XL tires that come standard)

All-season:

1) Yokohama Avid V4S -- 500 AA A tread rating. Meets OEM high load requirements. 500 tread life makes it a long lasting tire (VS OEM 300 tread life rating) I read quite a few positive reviews on this tire. Definitely a consideriation.

2) Sumitomo HTR+ -- a favorite among board members. A little low on the load rating, so flat spots if the car is parked a long time might be a problem. For the price per tire, sounds like you can't go wrong with this one. The tread is based upon a design that's a few years old. May find this one at a good price.

3) Toyo TPT -- not that many people know about this one. Relatively new (2004 model? ) so not that many reviews. Since tirerack doesn't carry Toyo tires, you really have to search to find any info on this one. BTW, it's a 95-load, V-speed rated tire.

4) Kumho ASX -- another relatively new tire. W-speed rated, 420 AA A tread rating with a 91 load (below OEM spec). Few people have mentioned that this one is a good tire. Don't know how long they've run it for. UPDATE:Just had these installed on my parent's Volvo. Have to say these are comfortable, quiet touring tires (even though it's listed on Tirerack's ultra-high performance tire section. Once the snow comes, I'll tell you how good the traction is on them.

5) Continental ContiExtremeContact -- another favorite among board members. One main complaint is the flat-spotting that is observed by people who park the car (even overnight!) so you'd have to drive it a bit before the flat spots are gone.

6) Nokian WR (Hemant's favorite) -- new 215/50/17 size this year. 91 load, H-speed rated tire. Treadwear 400, Temperature A, Traction A. Only four-season family of tires that carries the Severe Service Emblem exceeding new government snow condition regulations (as found on a website). Sounds like a winner! Going for about US$165/tire. Has a 50000 mile warranty. I wanna get these, but at the cost ...

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Winter tires.

This is where I am torn -- since I live in Southwestern Ontario, I technically could get away with all-season tires. That's what my whole family has done for 30+ years here. However, I do believe that tires are probably the most important thing people take for granted. After all, your all vehicle's performance is transferred onto tires. So, why take chances if you do a lot of highway driving in a 4-season climate?

Options:

1) Toyo Garit HT -- no one's heard of this tire. I found it through my search ... 91 load, H-speed rated tire. Might not meet OEM 93XL load requirements but based upon some reviews (1010tires.com) -- this was the tire I was considering. Not cheap.

2) Dunlop SP Winter Sport M3 -- a tirerack favorite! 95XL load tire -- means some stiff sidewalls, so it is performance-oriented. There is some concerns about road noise with these tires. I normally drive a 235/40/18 tire, so I'm used to a little hum on the roads. Rated tops among winter tires on tirerack, but not that many miles logged on it. Torn between this one or the Michelins.

3) Dunlop SP Winter Sport M2 -- older generation tires. Only comes as 205/50/17 but in 93XL load tires. About $118/tire on tirerack. Good reviews on tirerack but others are higher rated (probably due to less miles logged on them).

4) Michelin Pilot Alpin PA2 -- NOT in 215/50/17 size but I will look at 205/50/17 size. About 1.5% smaller in circumference than OEM size so it won't really screw up your speedometer/odometer. These are the replacements for the ' Pilot Alpin' line of last year. 93XL load rating so it meets OEM spec. Running US$132 on tirerack. I am a Michelin fan of tires. Did like the OEM tires when they were new but they are LOUD, even at 60000km on them. They (OEM Michelins) will not be on my car this winter.

5) Dunlop Graspic DS-2. Dedicated snow tire. Very new (just found it on tirerack). Apparently 55% 'winter' compound on top, 45% 'all-season' compound below. At $95/tire, seems like an economical choice for me. No reviews on it. Only a 91-load, H-speed rated tire. It looks symmetrical, so rotating tires would be simple. I might cheap out and get these ones for my application.

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Overall -- hope this write-up will help those looking for all-season / winter tires. Please feel free to add to this discussion. Maybe I forgot some tire that those are considering. (eg Hemants loves Nokian brand tires ...)

Derrick
u forgot the Falken ZE 512~ =P

btw...what does it mean by flat spot?

I have ordered the Sumitomo and they are coming on Thursday, will tell u how it feels

they are real cheap!!!

i have had the sumitomo htr's and they are a great tire they are good dry and wet performance and are good in the snow, i also got good mileage out of them too (not as good as a dedicated snow tire though). they wont flat spot from prolonged sitting. i also have had the artic alpins, blizzak's and winter sport m3's and the winter sport M3's are a better winter tire, especially when it comes to braking and cornering, and high speed stability. i also will have more miles on the M3's than i i was able to get on the alpins

There is NO comparison between all-season tires and dedicated winter snows! Also, you have to consider that most people aren't even using BRAND NEW all seasons during the winter, so you're even running on worn tread.

Not only is there a BIG difference in tread design for winter tires, they are also made of softer rubber and may increase your fuel economy ever so slightly. This allows them to heat up faster (and also wear faster!!). They provide much better traction in cold weather, ice, and snow. There is also a difference in how a tire will perform in snow and how it will perform on ice....different tread designs are usually more beneficial towards one or the other. Winter tires are not good on dry pavement and should be taken off once the cold season and snow are finished.

Some of the popular tires (i.e: Artic Alpine, Blizzaks etc.) are really great winter tires, however, they are not sipped all the way through and do not last very long. If you drive a reasonable distance each day, the actual benefit of these popular tires will only last you one season....after that, it's basically like driving an all-season. They are great for the first season, but you will find you replace them pretty often as the tread wears quickly.

I've gone a different route and used Gislaved snows and Nokian snows. Gislaved is a very popular swedish winter tire, although you will have a tough time finding them here. The past three winters, I've switched over to Nokian. This is also an absolutely awesome tire and it's sipped all the way through!! It's made in Finland and is used by many rally cars....although they use much thinner tires (for winter - the thinner, the better!). I will be throwing on my Nokian Hakkapaliita II's once it's time! There are probably only five (or less) dealers that carry Nokian tires in Ontario - so get them quickly....common sizes go fast and they are very popular tires.

I will never use an all-season for winter! I drove a RWD Volvo with no traction control for seven years and I wouldn't have made it anywhere in all-seasons!

http://www.nokiantyre.com/nokian.htm

Some photos of my tires/rim combo:

http://www.acurainspired.com/gallery...416_p33399.jpg

http://www.acurainspired.com/gallery...416_p33400.jpg

http://www.acurainspired.com/gallery...416_p33401.jpg

snow tires is a must on a RWD vovlo

Hey Derrick --

When I was looking into a new set of all-seasons tires almost a year ago, here's what I came up with:

Toyo TPT, Yokohama T4, and Yokohama H4 (lower tread rating on this one).

I will be getting them once winter is over and am leaning towards the Toyo TPT. They are supposed to be great, long-lasting tires that are also very quiet and provide superior traction to the OEM Michelins (obviously), as well as being cheaper. I won't consider anything super-performance oriented because they won't last as long and are supposed to run a bit louder than stock even though they will provide awesome traction! I don't want to be replacing tires more than I *really* need to, so I want ones that'll run longer than true performance tires. I've heard that some of the other tires you mentioned above really weren't so great, were pretty loud, and didn't last long at all. I was advised pretty strongly against a few of those models. I've heard people getting them simply because they weren't too expensive and had heard they were pretty good, but then wanted to get rid of them cuz they were very unhappy with them. I'd go with Toyo or Yokohama over any of the others that you mentioned. Just my opinion though. :dunno:

Hey StreetSpirit,

Like I said ... this was all that I researched the last little bit. :playboy: I knew there were other makes/models I failed to mention. :rasp: I haven't done much research on Nokian tires ... I know Hemants (now you) like them. Now ... just have to go over to Detroit and find a dealer that sells them. If they're that good ... it must be at a premium. 15% Ontario tax scares me away! :ecstatic:

BTW, I am a believer in Toyo tires. That's what I have as my summer setup. ;) However, if I could afford Michelin Pilot Sport PS2 ...

And lastly ... StreetSpirit's suggestion of the Nokian Hakkapeliitta Q -- doesn't come in a 17" size. Thus, I have no application for it (ie I'm using my Type-S rims for winter).

Actually, the "Q" is the older model, I've been running Nokian Hakkapaliita II's! :D They are a slightly superior tire (and studdable -- although illegal here :P)
The Nokian page should have a 'dealers' section, or google it! There are only four or five dealers here in Ontario. My usual tire guy carries them. I got the TL at the end of January last year, so he was out of 'em....only two sets left in my size for all of Ontario, so got 'em in Brampton last time.

Lucky guy --- so close to detroit for shopping!!! :)

Updated with a couple more tires I've researched...

I am looking at michelin x-ice 205 60/16. What do you think? I'm in Montreal , winters have a little more snow.

This will be a hot topic with fall quickly approaching. Thread labeled with sticky.

One point that needs to be made is that more than weather variance, one must consider the temperature variance where one lives.

Even though we don't get a ton of snow in Toronto, the temperature can range from -15 celcius to +35 (5 to 95 farenheit). It is simply not feasible for a single rubber compound to perform optimally in this range. Once you get around zero degrees celcius (32 farenheit) an H rated performance snow will perform better ON DRY than a summer tire and probably better than most all seasons).

For me it's a no brainer. 18 inch summer tires (or high performance all seasons) and 16 inch snows.

Cheap wheels and 16 inch snows can't cost you more than $500USD. And if you're lazy Canadian Tire will swap them over for $20.

The one time you try to brake and end up dinging somone's bumper is the time you will realize that the $500 was well spent.

In fact, when you're buying 18 inch tires at $200-$300 a corner, every mile you drive on your winter tires is sparing your expensive rubber.

I suppose if you are leasing the car and don't expect to go through more than 1 set of tires, it may not be worth it. But for most of us it definately is!

Update ... didn't go with the Dunlops ... had to wait a while for them. Was gonna go with the Michelins but no one in the greater Detroit area had 'em in stock. Ended up driving to Owosso, MI for Nokian tires. Check out the 1st impression review in another thread.

Derrick,

According to one of the leading winter tire testing websites, www.adac.de, the Nokian WRs didn't do to well compared to say, Pilot Alpin PA2s. In fact, they kinda disliked the tire, especially for weak snow performance, giving it their lowest "1-star" rating:

http://www.adac.de/Tests/Reifentests...0/NokianWR.asp

The Pilot Alpin PA2 scored among the highest, with 3 stars:

http://www.adac.de/Tests/Reifentests...nPAlpinPA2.asp

I just put on a set of four Michelin X-Ice tires, which I ordered from The Tire Rack. I only have 200+ miles on them right now, so I'll give a full evaluation after we've had some snow in New York. They certainly look aggressive:

http://people.delphiforums.com/CHAMS...ages/xice2.jpg

The Tire Rack was the only company around that could get them in my OE 205/60R16 size. Why Michelin tires are so hard to get is beyond me.

The tires shown by Street Spirit aren't the WRs, but the Hakkapeliitta 2s. They are considered a dedicated snow tire (as opposed to all-season), and they do kick-ass in the snow. You can get them at WTC (STS) Tires.

-[Ch]amsalot

I'd be interested to see a translation of those results.

Anyhow, here's an english test that ranked the WR favourable against a couple of other snow tires :

http://www.snowtire.info/TireReviews/2nd%20Annual.pdf

Where the WR's fit in is not a replacement for a dedicated snow tire if you live in cottage country. But then again, neither does a Pilot Alpin. H rated snows are excellent cold weather tires that won't leave you stranded in snow but are generally better around urban areas where there is more sluch and crap and you want to maintain some dry handling and sidewall stiffness on a performance vehicle.

Translation for the summary of the Nokian WR:
"+ very well on wet roadway, comfortable tire
- worst note in the snow (leads to the devaluation), weaknesses in the wear"

Translation for the Pilot Alpin PA2:
"+ very balanced tire - Bestnoten on dry roadway, with the rolling friction and with the wear"

The thing about the your review of the WR was that it was compared to the unidentified all-season tires that came on the minivan. This is hardly meaningful for Acura TL owners. In contrast, the test I showed compared twenty snow tires (including the Nokian WR) in a more relevant 205/55 R 16 size. The Nokian WR's simply didn't hold up as well in the snow ... at least according to the review I provided.

Translating from the first page of the review for the 205/55 R 16 test, you have this: "By their relatively weak achievements on snow the Nokian WR as well as the Fulda crystal Supremo disappointed, the latters fell through also on wetness."

Since the Nokian WR's certainly look like they'd make a great snow tire, I'd have to guess their comparitive performance is a matter of construction and compound. Of course, if I had a minivan and was looking to get an oversized tire that would register a 9mph error at 60mph, I'd give the WR's a chance based upon your review. :P

Ya know, in all fairness, sometimes reviews aren't all they're cracked up to be. I'd rather take the word of a fellow TL owner who's actually used the tire in winter conditions, so your own personal praise of the Nokian WRs is much more important to me than what some tests results which are impossible for me to verify show.

-[Ch]ams

couple of things,

1. the WR was reviewed against the Dunlop Graspic snow tire as well, you have to scroll down

2. I haven't tried the WR but I have the NRW on my TL right now for winter. They don't bite as well as the Yokohama Guardex I had on my A4 but the tradeoff is the NRW's are not squirrely in the sidewalls and they are very quiet. Since I drive mostly in the city, it was a tradeoff I was willing to make.

3. Once again, if you're doing seperate summer and winter tires, perhaps the WR is not the best choice depending on where one drives. But I will say this : the NRW's perform better than the stock michelins ON DRY. so I can only imagine how the WR's are. Every tire is a compromise - the WR fits somewhere between snow tire and high performance all season.

To add to your discussion ... I've only logged 500km on dry/wet pavement (205/50/17). These tires are quiet, despite the 'severe service' emblem on it. Treadwear 400, Temperature A, Traction A tire. I do like how they drive -- arguably, they are more comfortable than the OEM 215/50/17 Michelin MXM4 that came with the car.

I like the tread design -- very aggressive. There's still some of the new tire studs on the tread! Since I live in a relatively low snow accumulation area, I think the Nokian WR are overkill for my application. I'm not in a snowbelt area and roads here are kept relatively snow free. (Ever heard of Windsor Salt? The mine is not very far from where I live)

It's interesting to see how favourable/unfavourable something is, depending on how they are tested. Not only are the testimonials of fellow TL'ers important, but I have read another article saying how good the WRs are. It was on canadiandriver.com ... but I can't find it.

Here's an interesting article about winter tires

Anyway, I'll write more when I actually get to drive in REAL winter conditions with these tires. So far, so good.

The choice of snow tires really depends on the road conditions where you'll always be driving during the winter season. The best snow tires (best when driven in the snow and ice) usually don't perform as well in the dry as the best "performance" snow tires, and the best "performance" snow tires (best when driven in the dry) usually don't perform as well in the snow as the best snow tires. This has to do with the tread design and construction material. The more open the tread blocks is, the more sips on the blocks, the softer the rubber is, the better the tire is to perform in snow and ice. However, the worse it is to perform in the dry. There is always a tradeoff between performances in the snow and in the dry. So the correct choice of snow tires is really down to the severity of the winter season.

But today's tire technology has allowed some "performance" snow tires to exceed the dry road performance of the average all-season tires.

I put on my Nokian Hakka II's and steel wheels last weekend and I am now ready for winter (except the temp just keeps climbing up to almost-Spring-like conditions! :ecstatic: ) Everyone who has seen the car since, agrees that the Hakkas look like super-aggressive monster tires!! Some people took one look at them and said: "Damn!! Now THOSE are winter tires!" :D Just check out the tread from the side (first pic in my reply above). Obviously, I'm not a huge fan of running them in dry conditions and they are louder than my regular tires...but it's all worth it once the snow and ice make appearances. This'll be my first complete winter in a FWD car...I've spent the past seven years slugging through the snow in a RWD car and no traction control systems whatsoever. Got the car Jan. 30th of this year, so am looking forward to seeing what I think of the TL and winter driving. :wish:

I'm looking forward to plowing through the snow too this season. Every year I've been cursing my all-season tires.

I'm in the same boat as you with respect to the temperature. WTF? It's getting warmer, not colder. I put my tires on about two weeks early, but since I was spending tons of $$$ at my dealership for my 60K service, they mounted and balanced the snow tires for free! I have the best Acura dealership - Valley Stream, New York!

It would be a good idea to invest on a set of extra rims for the snow tires. Everytime when tires are mounted and dismounted, the tire beads are stretched. This would increase the possibility of rim/tire sealing problem.

2) Dunlop SP Winter Sport M3 -- a tirerack favorite! 95XL load tire -- means some stiff sidewalls, so it is performance-oriented. There is some concerns about road noise with these tires. I normally drive a 235/40/18 tire, so I'm used to a little hum on the roads. Rated tops among winter tires on tirerack, but not that many miles logged on it. Torn between this one or the Michelins.


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QUOTE]

Thanks for that little bit of info, I thought I was going crazy thinking there was something wrong with my tires since they were making noise over 30 MPH! Glad to know it's normal after getting them rotated and aligned.

Just to add, I had the Dunlop M2s on my '01 Mustang in Michigan snowy winters (2) and I loved them. Even with the rear drive and quite a few mods, handled great. Good buy in my book, I wanted the M3s but they didn't have my size (245/45/17) at the time. If I lived in a more snowbound area I'd probably get these, but here in Indy there isn't the need, so the Avid V4s will do.

i absoutly love the M3's this is my 2nd winter on them and for me thats really good. last year i put about 30k on them. keep in mind they are a performance snow tire, so they sacrifice a little deap snow traction in favor of handeling, but they still blow a allseason out of the water

i was searching tire rack and found avon tech m550 a/s look good and good price for 235/45/17 anyone ever use these?Iam thinking about getting some since the oems suck and are noisy

A general rule of thumb: go with as wide as or smaller width tire than you have normally in the summer. Reason being: you will get more traction (more weight per square inch). Since you're midwest like me ... you'll get big storms and drive on roads not plowed / salted as often as it should be. I downsized to 205/50/17 ... about 1.6% off in circumference than 215/50/17 ... but within limits of not screwing up ABS / traction control systems. The tires you mention ... 235/45/17 ... probably too wide for TL rims and probably a reduction in traction. Don't know anything about the brand so I can't make any comments there.

Good luck on your search.

I have the Contintental ContiExtremeContact tires on my other car. I actually haven't had any flatspotting issues, and I've left the car outside in the sub-freezing temperatures for several days at a time. I once left it out for a week and a half straight, before driving, and it didn't vibrate at all. In the meager snow we got a little while ago, I found them to be great. I couldn't get them to slip at all.

A little late for this, but I have the Dunlop M3s on my 04 6MT TL and I love 'em. And yes, they are a little noisy when you get on it, depending on the road surface. They are great on dry roads and even better in the snow. I have 235/45/17 on for the winter and PZeros 245/40/18 for spring to fall.

I get good wear and am very happy with these. In Germany it is common for us to switch tires for the seasons ... but people here say it's a waste of money - I think not!

Thanks for the review. I was torn whether or not to go with the M3 or the Nokian WR. Opted for the WR since it was available at the tire store I was visiting (plus it can be used all year so I don't have to immediately change rims when it gets warm).

As for 2 sets of tires ... I think it's so important because how can you put a price on your safety???

Nokian
 

Interesting that name came up...I sell Jag parts for a living and a customer of mine in NH was telling me the other day that he is a 'tire freak' and recently found these tires and was going on and on about how great they are!!!

Fwiw
 

Out of necessity (read: I was broke) I put a set of 235/45/17 P-Zeros front, 245's rear, on a few months back (take offs from a wreck, they were free). They rub when anyone is in the back seat, and during our only ice of the year I almost didn't get out of my neighborhood and then almost didn't get back in!! No traction. As soon as I can I'm getting stock size back!!

Dude ... if you go with a wider tire in the winter, you're getting less force per square inch ... LESS TRACTION. You'll be a lot better grip in dry conditions, though ... ;) Just keep it close to stock next time! :thumbsup:

I was looking at reviews and this topic for a long time, I came to a conclusion and I got the Dunlop Winter Sport M3's.

I just ordered them from TireRack.com.

Thanks guys for inputs and opinions!

Exactally... What happen to the Falken Zeix 512s.... What are they not worthy.....???? I believe they are. I was gunna get the Yokahama Avids, But i ask the guy and told me that the the Falkens are much better compared to the Avids. The diff in the price were jus about 5 dollars...... I think tht you should put them up also....

Remember ... this was written last year with the research that I did ... if you've got a review of a tire ... feel free to add here! (Most websites do not carry Falken with a review ...)

br goodrich g-force sport
 

anyone have any experience with this tire?

Well, an end-of-season follow up, the Michelin X-Ice 205/60R16 were absolutely phenomenal in the snow... and I'm not talking light stuff, I drove through two blizzards on craptacularly plowed roads (thanks for packing down the snow... how did that help?) and I was able to go at 4-wheel drive, SUV speeds (and I'm sure I was able to stop in half the distance).

Two thumbs up for Michelin, both in technology and the price for the 205/60R16 (which were priced well below the next smaller and larger tire sizes-- go figure).

-[Ch]amsalot

Yes the X-Ice is a great tire also. They didnt have teh M3 in the size my sister needed for her car, but they did in the X-ice. She absoutly loved them too.