kak0019

On my way to work yesterday, I lost power steering. Checked it out, the was no belt, only fragments of the old belt. Got a new belt. Put it on today. Put new drive belt on while I had the old one off. Tensioned according to factory service manual. Started car up, pump whining like crazy and especially loud during turning. Well got a new pump. Put it on, tensioned it properly like before and after new fluid worked thru new pump, no whining. Awesome. About to shut the hood, car boggs down and dies. Go to crank it back up, and in order to start car, gotta hold starter while pumping gas. The whole while it sounds like it's missing/ has a crazy cam lope. Once idles, I hear valve tick, and no matter how much throttle you give it, won't rev above ~1000-1200 rpm. Runs rich as fuck. So much, that white smoke covers garage. Before I started car again for first time after new psp, sprayed all hoses down with brakleen. Let dry.

Wtf could be wrong?? I have no cat, therefore no secondary O2 sensor, and the only cel code it was throwing was secondary O2 sensor circuit malfunction. (P0141). I've had that code since I took the cat off.

Car info:

2002 TL Type S. 239,400 miles. Oil changed every 3000 miles and trans fluid changed every other oil change. First got car at 198,000. At that time did new NGK plugs. Timing belt, water pump, and valve adjustment along with timing belt tensioner annnnd front and side motor mounts replaced at around 210,000 miles by Honda dealership.

My thoughts: crank position sensor? Coil pack bad? Injector clogged/fouled? Anything timing related? Please help.

3.2TLc

Hey Kak0019, so ya saying that your old PS belt disintegrated and took out the pump ?

After replacing the belt, then the pump, ya properly bled the ps system and adjusted belt tension according to the service manual. Kool, man....but the present bogging and missing just came about after this work ????? Kinda Krazy, man !!!!

Anyways, assuming that ya did not have these issues previously and that ya did the replacement properly, what the fuck happened, Huh man !!!!

By any odd chance, did ya check the nearby belts, hoses, electrical connections, and other components within the vicinity where the ps belt blew apart ???? How do the t-belt covers look ? Something must have gotten disturbed, IMO. That is if everything was ok before the belt blew. Check the codes again, and let us know....maybe we can go from there and try to help ya ! I feel your pain, man. ( Could possibly be any of your thoughts ) Just dunno what to tell ya. Maybe the BrakeKlean ?

kak0019

The thing is it ran perfectly fine after I replaced the belt. That's when I heard the old pump whining. And when I put the new one on (yes, I bled the system), it ran fine then too..... Until shit hit the fan. I've been reading and maybe it might be my egr valve and passages clogged? (I'll clean them when I get off work) Maybe coil packs? (I'll do a resistance test on them as well). Sounds like the winter gas problem, but mine never clears itself and doesn't rev above 1000-1200 rpm. Annnnd no cel codes except secondary O2 (which has been there forever, since I took cat off). I reset the ecu while I went and picked up a code scanner to make sure it logged fresh potential problems. Idkkk

3.2TLc

If the car was running relatively well before the PS belt shredding, then I'd have a hard time believing that it triggered this current problem. Is the O2 code the only one that comes up ? Sounds like the ECU went into default mode, does the CEL flash ? Any other idiot lights ?

Recheck everything that may have got hit by the blown belt and maybe too much BrakeKlean. Just a place to start if ya don't have any codes to clue ya in.

kak0019

If belt shredding hit something, I wouldn't have been able to drive it the rest of that day with no engine problems. And about the brakleen, maybe. Only thing around there possibly is crank position sensor. And correct, secondary O2 sensor circuit malfunction is only cel light.

3.2TLc

So, if the car managed to run ok without the belt for the rest of that day....then logically, one would think that the BrakeKlean may have possibly been a contributing factor, IMO.

The car may have ran well, but how hard was it to steer.....huh man ???

kak0019

You'd think it has to be something with the psp install and shit, but Murphys law may be at play here and shit just fucked up coincidentally now. And it sucked!! Sooooo damn hard to steer. Haha

smcafee

Could it be that you are in limp mode due to a disconnected sensor cable?

kak0019

Possibly, but I think it'd start up like that right after everything was back together, not five mins after. Maybe it takes a while to register for ecu to recognize no sensor. But I didn't have to unplug any sensors. And I'm pretty sure crank position sensor is being timing cover.

MilwaukeeDave

iTrader: (3)

Have you figured out why the belt shredded??? That could help figure out hats wrong now.

3.2TLc

Inspect the electrical connectors (nearest to the PS pump) and if they appear ok, take them apart and spray some electronics cleaner inside them. Check all wiring and grounds, also look for any vacuum leaks.

kak0019

The only thing in the vicinity of the PSP Belt is the VTEC solenoid. The wires look fine, not like they were hit with anything. The theory I'm going off of is the crank position sensor. A buddy of mine's SRT4 was doing damn near the exact same symptoms of my car (barely starting, idling like complete shit, and not revving above ~1k) and it was the crank position sensor. EGR looks fine, not clogged up too bad. Annnnd now it won't even start. FACKKKKK.

victus1

You can disconnect its plug and test it after removing the timing belt bottom cover. Service manual says there should be 1850 - 2450 ohms resistance between the 2 terminals of the crank position sensor. Also, none of them should have continuity with ground. I replaced mine when I did my timing belt just so I can avoid any issues in the future.

kak0019

Alright, here's what happened. Went to test that crank position sensor. Said fuck it when I found out I had to take off the crank pulley, so took off upper timing cover to test cam position sensor and found this.





So I was like shit, it jumped time. Didn't know by how many teeth or anything but it looked like the symptoms of that washer between the crank pully and the crank gear the timing belt goes on got put on backwards (it chews up that side of the timing belt and allows the belt to walk). Took it to Honda and told them (since they're the ones that last worked on it) to figure out what happened. Meanwhile, that night we took the upper cover off, it wouldn't even crank over at all...sounded like it had no compression. Just freely spinning the motor without trying to start at all.

Well, they finally looked at the car today and this is what they found:





That damn old power steering belt did break, but it didn't fall off down the road....it got wrapped up on the inside of the crank pully, wore away the lower timing cover, and wads of it got into the timing belt causing it to jump. The motor is now seized. FACKKK.

Now comes the time to get it towed back home and tear into it and see what kind of damage was done to the heads and possible bottom end/pistons. Sucks, but I need ya'll help and opinions on what to do next.

Option 1) Get J32A2 CL-S motor with the 6-sp LSD tranny for $3600 + shipping and call it a day.

Option 2) Send off heads to Bisimoto for race port and polish, 3.6 cams, titanium valvesprings and retainers, forged custom 11.0:1 pistons, 1000cc injectors, 320 lph fuel pump, AEM EMS series 2, and a tune. Parts: ~$6k. Tune ~$500. 6-sp tranny: ~$1k. TOTAL: ~$7500.

Now, here comes the kicker. I have access to a J35Z2 block FOR FREE with only about 25k miles on it. It was going through oil, so i'd simply have the piston bores honed and new rings for those pistons and I'd basically have a brand new, built as fuck motor for $7500. BUT: will my heads match up to this block? Will the CL-S 6-sp LSD tranny bellhousing match? ANNNND I wonder what the motor mount locations look like.

Option 3) Buy used motor (no tranny) from Nashville for ~$600 (about 150k miles on it) and simply use for parts just to get it running.

Obviously if the J35/J32 hybrid can be done, that's what I WANT to do. But damn that's a lot of money; but Bisimoto said with the right tune, my motor with what's listed above could make 400 HP easy. If it's the J35 bottom end with 11:1 compression pistons, it could make a little more I'd bet.

If I go with Option 2, I'd have to get another daily and this would be a long-ass project because Lord knows I don't have $8k sitting around. What do ya'll think?

3.2TLc

Hey Kak0019, option # 1 gets my vote....especially if you're able to do the swap yourself.

Gotta wonder just how that PS belt managed to get tangled within the lower timing belt cover ???

kak0019

I know! It sucks it got tangled. And more than likely, I'm just going to take both heads off (already got one off) and make sure there's no visual damage to pistons, then get the head reworked (new valve guides, remachine bottom of head to get new surface and completely cleaned with sandblaster and put completely back together. And while the machine shop is got them apart, if valves are bent or warped, replace the bad ones. And while that's being done I'll clean the shit outta the entire intake system.

First head off:



Engine block home-made cover:



After all, i get the newly reworked heads put back on, replace all the gaskets, put new plugs in her, and get her back in time and that should fix the problem. We'll see haha. Maybeeeeeeeeeee new 6-sp trans if I can swing it hahaha. The above work with gaskets is already $700 more than likely. I was told I can get the heads re-worked for less than $500 easy. Sorry for the slow posts...Takes time with this and school with a job :P

fsttyms1

Hold on right there.

There are no 3.6 cams. The only engines honda/acura made were 3.5 and 3.7. 3.7 cams wont work in our engines. You can regrind your cams, but the best solution is to get larger roller wheels for the rocker arm as you cant make the lobes on the cam any larger due to the opening in the head for the cam.
Unless you plan on boost, there is NO need for custom forged pistons, oems are plenty strong. You could deck your block and heads and get the same compression, there is NO need for 1000cc injectors. Especially NA. Your stock ones will be just fine or upgrade to S2k or RDX injectors. Same goes for the fuel pump. No need for a new one for NA.

3.2TLc

Hey Kak0019, you're probably wasting alot of effort and money on what you're attempting to do.
Please listen to Fsttyms1, as he is the King of Acura wisdom and doesn't do pixie dusting.

kak0019

Boost is in the equation. But (I know it's confusing to read multiples threads lol), sorry, I meant to type 3.7 cams....as in level 3.7 from bisimoto. Let me copy and paste the plans Bisimito sent to me (doesn't mean I'm going to listen to every minute detail, but its a good base).

"Greetings Keith,
Hope you are off to a great start this week and thank you for your interest in Bisimoto technology for your build! The big block J-series power plant has much potential to make some serious horse power with the right parts! Starting with the cylinder heads is a great way to make easy power on a stock block.
Bisimoto custom Level 3 profiles are available upon special request and will require Bisimoto Pro springs with titanium retainers to prevent coil bind at peak lift, valve float and harmful valvetrain harmonics at higher rpms. However, the Bisimoto Level 3 aggressive profile would greatly benefit from an increase in static compression with Bisimoto forged custom pistons, along with Bisimoto Spec. head porting service to obtain the needed air flow and efficiency to reach your power goals. The SH-AWD intake manifold and larger throttle body would also be very beneficial to your project and will greatly assist in additional CFM charge into the cylinder head intake ports. As for your tuning solution, the AEM EMS Series 2 system is the perfect choice! With many features that will benefit your project and highly refined fuel and ignition mapping, your project will not only be able to produce great power but as well improved drivability! Best of all being we work with AEM Electronics, I can offer you the best pricing for this system!
For your second step of building a turbocharged application, your cylinder heads will be ready to produce big power! For your bottom end, I would recommend then replacing the high compression piston to a more conservative compression ratio along with a set of custom Bisimoto steel H-beam rods to support the high cylinder pressures. Bisimoto has been working with the engineers at Turbonetics for the last several years developing small framed fast spooling turbochargers that can flow tremendous amounts of CFM's! With new technologies of billet aluminum compressor wheels, ceramic ball bearings and the best warranty in the business Turbonetics comes second to none! For your project, I would recommend a Bisimoto Spec. BTX6462X turbocharger to allow for an incredible spool and the flow needed to reach and even surpass your power goals! Blow off valve duties can be handled with a Turbonetics Godzilla BOV and wastegate duties taken care of by Turbonetics RG-45. For intercooler, I would recommend a some what large Spearco universal unit to reduce intake air charge temps efficiently. The factory coil packs would be more than capable of supplying the needed spark energy to ignite the air/fuel ratio and along with a set of cooler heat range Iridium NGK plugs will take care of the spark duties.

Products $USD
Bisimoto Level 3 custom regrind J-series (require camshaft cores) $772.00
Bisimoto Pro Springs with titanium retainers J-series $549.00
Bisimoto head porting service J-series (requires cylinder head cores)
$1,699.00
Bisimoto Spec. 1000cc fuel injectors X6 $682.00
Bisimoto custom forged piston kits X6 $974.00
Bisimoto custom steel H-beam rods $1,245.00
Bisimoto Spec. BTX6462X Turbonetics turbo (Ball bearings, Billet wheel)
$1,479.00
Turbonetics Godzilla BOV $327.49
Turbonetics RG-45 Wastegate $499.99
Spearco universal core (rated for 650hp) $499.00
AEM Electronics EMS Series 2 J-series (call for best price) $1,314.80
AEM Electronics 320lph in-tank fuel pump (free shipping) $100.00"

Like I said, good base to start with. Still not sure what to do about the turbo manifold, though. I'd like to have one behind my motor but that's pure thought and haven't done any research behind that at all. Only thoughts behind that theory are piping would be MUCH simpler and would only need a universal intercooler that would not require in and out on same side.

fsttyms1

First off, you wont want a stage 3 cam for Daily driving, wont be fun, ive seen the stage 2 and its fairly lumpy idle. 2nd you dont want to raise compression to boost the car. Like in his email, you will want to lower compression some. You still dont need 1k injectors for this. There are guys running stock internals and minor bolt-ons making 6-750 whp (with Js dropped into civics)

And like stated before in the rear mount turbo thread. There really isnt room to put a turbo on the back side of the motor and all of its plumbing. The best and easiest is where everyone places it. You still need to run the piping for the IC up to the front and from the back of the motor it would be more difficult to get all the plumbing for the IC from back there to the front given the limited space.