about XLR8 Perfromance Crank Pully
11-16-2010, 01:30 PM
#1
Racer
Thread Starter
about XLR8 Perfromance Crank Pully
so this pully being the stock diamter and lightweight... is there much differance in performance compared to the stock pully?
11-16-2010, 01:41 PM
#3
Racer
Thread Starter
11-16-2010, 04:23 PM
#5
Senior Moderator
Its light weight. Its less rotating mass. The motor will be able to accelerate/rev faster there by increasing performance.
11-16-2010, 08:31 PM
#6
being the same diameter allows all the other belt driven parts to maintain their regular speed, especially at idle,,
the alternator wont run above 600 watt stereo with an underdrive pulley- but the stock diameter will run normal loads, car will have normal ac output at idle etc
the weight on the end of the crankshaft is what limits its abilty to spin faster-quiker, getting the rpm to vtec range where you get way more power
The Stock pulley weight is approx 10 pounds
the lightweight one is less than 2 pounds!!!
Imagine if you lost 8 pounds off the belly,,probably increase your speed too~
the alternator wont run above 600 watt stereo with an underdrive pulley- but the stock diameter will run normal loads, car will have normal ac output at idle etc
the weight on the end of the crankshaft is what limits its abilty to spin faster-quiker, getting the rpm to vtec range where you get way more power
The Stock pulley weight is approx 10 pounds
the lightweight one is less than 2 pounds!!!
Imagine if you lost 8 pounds off the belly,,probably increase your speed too~
11-16-2010, 09:52 PM
#7
Instructor
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I'm assuming our cranks are internally balanced right? (old american cars - what I am more familiar with - usually have externally blanced cranks and require a specific crankshaft pully to balance the crank) just thought I'd double check....
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11-17-2010, 08:55 PM
#9
did we say there was any issue??
or that many ziners and others are running these pullies with no issues of vibration or danger to the engine
modern engines are pretty well internally balanced--computors make parts manufacture and assembly standards much higher than the days of the 80 chevy v8--the shake master
or that many ziners and others are running these pullies with no issues of vibration or danger to the engine
modern engines are pretty well internally balanced--computors make parts manufacture and assembly standards much higher than the days of the 80 chevy v8--the shake master
11-18-2010, 12:18 AM
#10
2003 TL-S w/Navi NBP
FYI...a friend of mine had crank creep with a light-weight aluminum pulley on his Lexus SC - I think it was a '97. He developed an oil leak around the seal. So, not just American cars.
11-18-2010, 10:15 AM
#12
did we say there was any issue??
or that many ziners and others are running these pullies with no issues of vibration or danger to the engine
modern engines are pretty well internally balanced--computors make parts manufacture and assembly standards much higher than the days of the 80 chevy v8--the shake master
or that many ziners and others are running these pullies with no issues of vibration or danger to the engine
modern engines are pretty well internally balanced--computors make parts manufacture and assembly standards much higher than the days of the 80 chevy v8--the shake master
11-18-2010, 10:19 AM
#13
I would disagree if the engine was designed with a dampner then it needs it so that the hermonics don't destroy the internals. Removing the dampner and installing a lightweight pulley in it's place might be fine at the track and the short term or if your rebulding the engine often, but on a daily driver your just asking for problems and a shortened engine life to boot.
11-18-2010, 11:25 AM
#16
Senior Moderator
I would disagree if the engine was designed with a dampner then it needs it so that the hermonics don't destroy the internals. Removing the dampner and installing a lightweight pulley in it's place might be fine at the track and the short term or if your rebulding the engine often, but on a daily driver your just asking for problems and a shortened engine life to boot.
11-18-2010, 01:15 PM
#17
But in this case our cars DO NOT have a dampener. Our pulley (taken from UR's faq) has an elastomer (rubber ring) incorporated into the pulley making them look similar to a harmonic damper. The elastomer in the OEM pulley serves as an isolator, which is there to suppress noise from the engine accessories; the A/C compressor, P/S pump, and alternator. This is what the manufacturers call NVH (Noise Vibration & Harshness) when referring to noticeable noise and vibration in the passenger compartment. It is important to realize in these applications, the elastomer is inadequate in size and durability to act as an effective torsional damper.
so then are there no drill marks on the pulley what so ever? no blind holes drilled into the backside or underside oposite of where the belt rides?
11-18-2010, 02:12 PM
#22
I went and looked at the XLR8 and the BS on the site.... " .001" tolerance usually reserved for the medical, aircraft, military and space industries" what a joke and all BULLSHIT maybe they should actually work in thos indistries or looked at drawings from those industries first, but marketing is marketing and you clowns took the whole line and sinker and ran away with it.
This part isn't for an everyday driver it's for a track car that isn't used much, the rotating assembly and the lose of the extra weight is the advantage, but it interduces harmonics that weren't there before the part is installed and can be countered by balancing the complete rotating assembly, meaning, piston's concecting rod's, wrist pins, and the crank and pulley as a complete assembly.
FYI, Senior Lead Designer is the tile .....Depuy Orthopeadics, Rolls-Royce, and GM sorry haven't done anything for NASA, and engine componets for Stealth aircraft is a daily task of mine.
This part isn't for an everyday driver it's for a track car that isn't used much, the rotating assembly and the lose of the extra weight is the advantage, but it interduces harmonics that weren't there before the part is installed and can be countered by balancing the complete rotating assembly, meaning, piston's concecting rod's, wrist pins, and the crank and pulley as a complete assembly.
FYI, Senior Lead Designer is the tile .....Depuy Orthopeadics, Rolls-Royce, and GM sorry haven't done anything for NASA, and engine componets for Stealth aircraft is a daily task of mine.
Last edited by rcb2000; 11-18-2010 at 02:17 PM.
11-18-2010, 02:44 PM
#23
Senior Moderator
I went and looked at the XLR8 and the BS on the site.... " .001" tolerance usually reserved for the medical, aircraft, military and space industries" what a joke and all BULLSHIT maybe they should actually work in thos indistries or looked at drawings from those industries first, but marketing is marketing and you clowns took the whole line and sinker and ran away with it.
This part isn't for an everyday driver it's for a track car that isn't used much, the rotating assembly and the lose of the extra weight is the advantage, but it interduces harmonics that weren't there before the part is installed and can be countered by balancing the complete rotating assembly, meaning, piston's concecting rod's, wrist pins, and the crank and pulley as a complete assembly.
FYI, Senior Lead Designer is the tile .....Depuy Orthopeadics, Rolls-Royce, and GM sorry haven't done anything for NASA, and engine componets for Stealth aircraft is a daily task of mine.
This part isn't for an everyday driver it's for a track car that isn't used much, the rotating assembly and the lose of the extra weight is the advantage, but it interduces harmonics that weren't there before the part is installed and can be countered by balancing the complete rotating assembly, meaning, piston's concecting rod's, wrist pins, and the crank and pulley as a complete assembly.
FYI, Senior Lead Designer is the tile .....Depuy Orthopeadics, Rolls-Royce, and GM sorry haven't done anything for NASA, and engine componets for Stealth aircraft is a daily task of mine.
And yes this pulley is for the "everyday" driver. There is 200k on my motor with well over 130k on it with a light weight pulley. Zero Issues.
These cranks are proven, and have been for YEARS. So please stop posting false information.
11-18-2010, 02:45 PM
#24
Senior Moderator
http://www.unorthodoxracing.com/faq.aspx#section2
Is my crank pulley a harmonic/torsional/vibration damper or a harmonic balancer?
People are getting their crank pulleys confused with the harmonic dampers found on some domestic V6 & V8 engines. "Harmonic Balancer" is a term used loosely in the automotive industry. Technically, this type of device does not exist. The "balancer" part comes from engines that are externally balanced and have a counterweight cast into the damper. None of the applications we offer use a counterweight as part of the pulley, as these engines are all internally balanced.
The pulleys on most of the new import and smaller domestic engines have an elastomer (rubber ring) incorporated into the pulley making them look similar to a harmonic damper. The elastomer in the OEM pulley serves as an isolator, which is there to suppress noise from the engine accessories; the A/C compressor, P/S pump, and alternator. This is what the manufacturers call NVH (Noise Vibration & Harshness) when referring to noticeable noise and vibration in the passenger compartment. It is important to realize in these applications, the elastomer is inadequate in size and durability to act as an effective torsional damper. If you look at the pulleys on some imports there is no rubber to be found at all. We have samples of these, mostly from Acura/Honda B & D Series engines, Nissan Altima, 1.8L Eclipse, 2.3L Fords, Chrysler 2.2L's, and 1.8L VW's just to mention a few. Most owners who have installed our pulleys notice the engine actually feels smoother. This is result of replacing the heavy crank pulley with our crank pulley. NVH is variable and unique to every car. NVH will increase with the installation of an aftermarket intake and/or exhaust, for example. Think of OEM intake systems in newer cars, they use baffles and resonators in the intake to quiet all the intake noise. Aftermarket intakes eliminate these resonators and create dramatic increases in engine noise from the throttle opening and closing. So to most tuners, certain types of NVH can make the driving experience more enjoyable.
The purpose of a traditional harmonic damper is to protect against crank failure from torsional movement and frequencies of high amplitude. This is not necessary in most modern engines because of the many advances in engine design and materials. Factors such as shorter stroke length, smaller displacement, piston dwell time, piston pin off-set, power output, etc., do determine when and how these harmonics and torsional movements occur. More importantly the actual tune of the engine, espcially with modified vheciles, is the biggest factor in potential engine damage. Poor tuning leads to detonation which is an engine killer that no damper can stop.
Again, there is a lot of internet hearsay about solid crank pulleys. When engine problems occur, too often people are quick to blame the pulley first, rather than taking the time to look logically into why there was a problem. We hope that after reading this you will understand our crank pulleys better. Top
Will Unorthodox Racing lightened pulleys cause an oil pump failure?
Urban myths have been floating around about Honda oil pumps failing by using an Unorthodox Racing crank pulley/s. The real fact is that these OEM pumps have been failing with AND WITHOUT the use of our pulleys and before our crank pulley/s were available on the market. Also note that these failures are few and far in between.
The Acura/Honda oil pumps are excellent units, but there are a number of reasons for the failures that do occur.
Most of the oil pump failures have been in Acura/Honda B series 1.6/1.8L applications, Chrsyler SRT4, Mazda 1.6/1.8L applications have seen a few failures, as well as the new Ford Focus ZETEC in race vehicles. Again, note that on all these applications the oil pump failures have occurred on engines not even using our pulley, they were using the stock crank pulley.
These pump failures can be linked to the following causes. These causes may act individually or in combination to cause the actual failures:
# The gears used in many pumps including those in the Honda B series engines and Mazda Miata engines are of a low-cost powdered metal composition. The factory uses this metal because of its acceptable cost-to-strength ratio. The problem is, these parts are not always deburred properly from the factory and when pushed to their limits can and do fail. # Many times additional stress is added to the oil pump by using oil thicker than what is specified by the manufacturer. The oil pump and bearing clearances were not designed from the factory to push oil of higher viscosities. This extra stress on the gears, combined with the above mentioned poor deburring process, can attribute to oil pump failure or engine failure. # Another contributing factor to oil pump failures is the weak cast backing plate of the B16/B18 oil pumps. Simple inspection shows that when compared to an H22 oil pump, a screw is not present in a critical location of the plate in the B series pumps. Compound this with the use of a higher viscosity motor oil and poorly deburred pump components and you have the ingredients for an oil pump failure. # This issue, specific to the Mazda 1.6/1.8L engines, involves the flex of the crankshaft and the lower half of the engine due to the additional stress of a forced induction system (such as a turbo or supercharger). The additional stress produced by forced induction causes flexing of both the block and the crankshaft between the front main bearing and the oil pump. This can also contribute to oil pump failure. Early Miatas were notorious for having crankshaft problems and later models suffered from problems as power is increased significantly.
Lastly, any failure inside a motor, related to aging components or a poor engine rebuild, can cause the oil pump to fail. ANY particles passing through an oil pump design such as that used in the Honda B series engines will cause damage or failure.
Remember that oil pump failures happen regularly on engines using a factory crank pulley. To help combat these failures, a few steps should be taken to help prolong the life of your oil pump and engine:
# Unless building a race motor with race clearances in mind, you should always use an oil viscosity matching, or as close to the factory recommendations as possible. # If using a factory oil pump, always have your oil pump components deburred properly. It is recommended you have a competent engine rebuilder handle this. # For those who run dedicated / extreme race vehicles we recommend using an external wet or dry sump oiling system. These systems are designed for the heavy abuse a race engine receives on the track. Remember, the stock oiling systems were designed for factory horsepower levels and can only handle a certain amount of power increase over that level.
Lastly and most obvious, have a competent, trusted machine or performance shop rebuild your precious motor. It only takes one simple mistake to turn a costly engine rebuild into a doorstop.
If you have any other questions about this subject please don't hesitate to give us a call or drop us an e-mail. We take great pride in the craftsmanship of our products and are constantly striving to provide the highest quality products available to you, our customers. Top
Will these pulleys cause premature engine bearing wear?
This is a fear many prospective owners have and is a valid concern since we are dealing directly with the rotating assembly. Fortunately it is another urban myth with no basis in fact. The fact is our pulleys have the opposite effect on engine bearings. The combination of tight tolerances, precise quality control, perfect balance, and dramatic weight loss versus the stock pulleys reduces stress loads on your engine, extending the service life of your engine. Engine bearing problems are purely associated to poor engine maintenance, use of heavier than factory recommended oils, improper engine building practices (which includes poor balancing), excessively revving of engines when they are cold, and owners expecting their factory oil pumps to handle engine power outputs beyond 3, 4, even 5+ times the stock power levels. Top
Is my crank pulley a harmonic/torsional/vibration damper or a harmonic balancer?
People are getting their crank pulleys confused with the harmonic dampers found on some domestic V6 & V8 engines. "Harmonic Balancer" is a term used loosely in the automotive industry. Technically, this type of device does not exist. The "balancer" part comes from engines that are externally balanced and have a counterweight cast into the damper. None of the applications we offer use a counterweight as part of the pulley, as these engines are all internally balanced.
The pulleys on most of the new import and smaller domestic engines have an elastomer (rubber ring) incorporated into the pulley making them look similar to a harmonic damper. The elastomer in the OEM pulley serves as an isolator, which is there to suppress noise from the engine accessories; the A/C compressor, P/S pump, and alternator. This is what the manufacturers call NVH (Noise Vibration & Harshness) when referring to noticeable noise and vibration in the passenger compartment. It is important to realize in these applications, the elastomer is inadequate in size and durability to act as an effective torsional damper. If you look at the pulleys on some imports there is no rubber to be found at all. We have samples of these, mostly from Acura/Honda B & D Series engines, Nissan Altima, 1.8L Eclipse, 2.3L Fords, Chrysler 2.2L's, and 1.8L VW's just to mention a few. Most owners who have installed our pulleys notice the engine actually feels smoother. This is result of replacing the heavy crank pulley with our crank pulley. NVH is variable and unique to every car. NVH will increase with the installation of an aftermarket intake and/or exhaust, for example. Think of OEM intake systems in newer cars, they use baffles and resonators in the intake to quiet all the intake noise. Aftermarket intakes eliminate these resonators and create dramatic increases in engine noise from the throttle opening and closing. So to most tuners, certain types of NVH can make the driving experience more enjoyable.
The purpose of a traditional harmonic damper is to protect against crank failure from torsional movement and frequencies of high amplitude. This is not necessary in most modern engines because of the many advances in engine design and materials. Factors such as shorter stroke length, smaller displacement, piston dwell time, piston pin off-set, power output, etc., do determine when and how these harmonics and torsional movements occur. More importantly the actual tune of the engine, espcially with modified vheciles, is the biggest factor in potential engine damage. Poor tuning leads to detonation which is an engine killer that no damper can stop.
Again, there is a lot of internet hearsay about solid crank pulleys. When engine problems occur, too often people are quick to blame the pulley first, rather than taking the time to look logically into why there was a problem. We hope that after reading this you will understand our crank pulleys better. Top
Will Unorthodox Racing lightened pulleys cause an oil pump failure?
Urban myths have been floating around about Honda oil pumps failing by using an Unorthodox Racing crank pulley/s. The real fact is that these OEM pumps have been failing with AND WITHOUT the use of our pulleys and before our crank pulley/s were available on the market. Also note that these failures are few and far in between.
The Acura/Honda oil pumps are excellent units, but there are a number of reasons for the failures that do occur.
Most of the oil pump failures have been in Acura/Honda B series 1.6/1.8L applications, Chrsyler SRT4, Mazda 1.6/1.8L applications have seen a few failures, as well as the new Ford Focus ZETEC in race vehicles. Again, note that on all these applications the oil pump failures have occurred on engines not even using our pulley, they were using the stock crank pulley.
These pump failures can be linked to the following causes. These causes may act individually or in combination to cause the actual failures:
# The gears used in many pumps including those in the Honda B series engines and Mazda Miata engines are of a low-cost powdered metal composition. The factory uses this metal because of its acceptable cost-to-strength ratio. The problem is, these parts are not always deburred properly from the factory and when pushed to their limits can and do fail. # Many times additional stress is added to the oil pump by using oil thicker than what is specified by the manufacturer. The oil pump and bearing clearances were not designed from the factory to push oil of higher viscosities. This extra stress on the gears, combined with the above mentioned poor deburring process, can attribute to oil pump failure or engine failure. # Another contributing factor to oil pump failures is the weak cast backing plate of the B16/B18 oil pumps. Simple inspection shows that when compared to an H22 oil pump, a screw is not present in a critical location of the plate in the B series pumps. Compound this with the use of a higher viscosity motor oil and poorly deburred pump components and you have the ingredients for an oil pump failure. # This issue, specific to the Mazda 1.6/1.8L engines, involves the flex of the crankshaft and the lower half of the engine due to the additional stress of a forced induction system (such as a turbo or supercharger). The additional stress produced by forced induction causes flexing of both the block and the crankshaft between the front main bearing and the oil pump. This can also contribute to oil pump failure. Early Miatas were notorious for having crankshaft problems and later models suffered from problems as power is increased significantly.
Lastly, any failure inside a motor, related to aging components or a poor engine rebuild, can cause the oil pump to fail. ANY particles passing through an oil pump design such as that used in the Honda B series engines will cause damage or failure.
Remember that oil pump failures happen regularly on engines using a factory crank pulley. To help combat these failures, a few steps should be taken to help prolong the life of your oil pump and engine:
# Unless building a race motor with race clearances in mind, you should always use an oil viscosity matching, or as close to the factory recommendations as possible. # If using a factory oil pump, always have your oil pump components deburred properly. It is recommended you have a competent engine rebuilder handle this. # For those who run dedicated / extreme race vehicles we recommend using an external wet or dry sump oiling system. These systems are designed for the heavy abuse a race engine receives on the track. Remember, the stock oiling systems were designed for factory horsepower levels and can only handle a certain amount of power increase over that level.
Lastly and most obvious, have a competent, trusted machine or performance shop rebuild your precious motor. It only takes one simple mistake to turn a costly engine rebuild into a doorstop.
If you have any other questions about this subject please don't hesitate to give us a call or drop us an e-mail. We take great pride in the craftsmanship of our products and are constantly striving to provide the highest quality products available to you, our customers. Top
Will these pulleys cause premature engine bearing wear?
This is a fear many prospective owners have and is a valid concern since we are dealing directly with the rotating assembly. Fortunately it is another urban myth with no basis in fact. The fact is our pulleys have the opposite effect on engine bearings. The combination of tight tolerances, precise quality control, perfect balance, and dramatic weight loss versus the stock pulleys reduces stress loads on your engine, extending the service life of your engine. Engine bearing problems are purely associated to poor engine maintenance, use of heavier than factory recommended oils, improper engine building practices (which includes poor balancing), excessively revving of engines when they are cold, and owners expecting their factory oil pumps to handle engine power outputs beyond 3, 4, even 5+ times the stock power levels. Top
The following users liked this post:
captainjackp (03-20-2014)
11-18-2010, 06:22 PM
#25
rcb2000, you are spittin' stuff that simply does not apply here. There is no need for the damper on modern Honda engines. PERIOD. I am not going to get into a debate here, check the epic one I got into on K20.org:
http://www.k20a.org/forum/showthread.php?t=70848
If you get through all that and still think you need one and the engine is going to have issues, you are just flat out stubborn. Nothing about this arguement holds water when you compare theory to real life.
http://www.k20a.org/forum/showthread.php?t=70848
If you get through all that and still think you need one and the engine is going to have issues, you are just flat out stubborn. Nothing about this arguement holds water when you compare theory to real life.
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bmore07tls (11-17-2012)
11-19-2010, 08:32 AM
#26
Senior Moderator
While there were some good debates in there by some knowledgeable people there was a lot of stupid talk in there by many that "heard" that they werent good, just like i heard CAI's will blow up your motor when it rains.
My last motor had 220k on it. When i pulled it for my 6 speed conversion only 1 bearing had a scar on it. It wasnt from not having a stock crank pulley on it. It was from some contaminant that was in the oil . This winter i will be yanking my motor out for my 3.6 conversion. I will look at the bearings when i do, though im not sure what the shape will be. This motor has lived a harder life being in the car with the manual with many more track days and a few 9k over revs (which i know the rear bank of cyls is consuming a small amount of oil)
My last motor had 220k on it. When i pulled it for my 6 speed conversion only 1 bearing had a scar on it. It wasnt from not having a stock crank pulley on it. It was from some contaminant that was in the oil . This winter i will be yanking my motor out for my 3.6 conversion. I will look at the bearings when i do, though im not sure what the shape will be. This motor has lived a harder life being in the car with the manual with many more track days and a few 9k over revs (which i know the rear bank of cyls is consuming a small amount of oil)
11-19-2010, 08:42 AM
#27
bunch of market BS IMHO, but I do like the claim that powdered metal piece have burrs, most are never machined as they usually are net form once they are out of the die and through heat treating, thus the cheaper cost no machine time for machining.
Last edited by rcb2000; 11-19-2010 at 08:44 AM.
11-19-2010, 11:11 AM
#28
I would disagree if the engine was designed with a dampner then it needs it so that the hermonics don't destroy the internals. Removing the dampner and installing a lightweight pulley in it's place might be fine at the track and the short term or if your rebulding the engine often, but on a daily driver your just asking for problems and a shortened engine life to boot.
I went and looked at the XLR8 and the BS on the site.... " .001" tolerance usually reserved for the medical, aircraft, military and space industries" what a joke and all BULLSHIT maybe they should actually work in thos indistries or looked at drawings from those industries first, but marketing is marketing and you clowns took the whole line and sinker and ran away with it.
in this thread seems to be the unsupported claims you're making.
The following users liked this post:
bmore07tls (11-17-2012)
11-19-2010, 11:15 AM
#29
couple other issue I have with the wording in the sell's BS.
" tolerances to .001" "
well that might impress joe blow that isn't aware that the center bore of the part needs to be held to a much tighter tolerance and mates with a slip fit to ground journal that has a tolerance in the range .0005" -.0000" after all it's also the interface of the front oil seal, ever look what the supplier recommended tolerance's is for a proper seal and function of the part? .001" is a leaker in this case. after all that's plus or minus so that range is .002". spec oil journals and bearigns for a living you'll understand then and see how unimpressive this is.
balanced to 0
so is this staic or dynamic?, with quality equipement and a good SPC you can produce a part that doesn't require balancing in a static state, problem is this piece doesn't operate in a static state it is a dynamic state . Also with out the presence of any visual markings showing material removal, how is it balanced?, this would be required to balance the piece in a dynamic since or a visual weight could be added to accomblish this as well but it has neither so how is it even possible to balance it in a dynamic state that the function of the part requires?
What's the runout of the part is that held to within .001" if so they they got one close, what about the runout relationship between the center bore with a loose mating tolerance and the O.D. of the part? this is why you balance a part dynamicly because it's tough to control the runout to an acceptable level to make it cost effect to make and throw in the loose fit and the key way pulling the part to one side to take up the loose tolerance. Checking the runout on the engine and it won't be as good as it was when you checked the part by it's self. Also funny how they are able to get the balance to exactly zero, jet engines that operate at 10 times the rpms are not even balanced to zero, damn close but still not zero and they are measured as a frequency not in ounces
Latest CAD
HHHMMMM so they used a fancy drafting system, did they follow through with FEA analysis, follow threw with CAM? Computer aided Drafting CAD computer aided manufacturing CAM.
I would think choosing to brag about the actual lathe type and manufacturer of the lathe would have more meaning and the actual type of balancing would hold more water than a bunch of generalized statements, but maybe it's just the designer in me nit picking the marketing department. Pick up a bearing catolog and read the front section do the same for the oil seals and you'll see that their recommended tolerances are far tighter than the .001" bragging in the ad.
" tolerances to .001" "
well that might impress joe blow that isn't aware that the center bore of the part needs to be held to a much tighter tolerance and mates with a slip fit to ground journal that has a tolerance in the range .0005" -.0000" after all it's also the interface of the front oil seal, ever look what the supplier recommended tolerance's is for a proper seal and function of the part? .001" is a leaker in this case. after all that's plus or minus so that range is .002". spec oil journals and bearigns for a living you'll understand then and see how unimpressive this is.
balanced to 0
so is this staic or dynamic?, with quality equipement and a good SPC you can produce a part that doesn't require balancing in a static state, problem is this piece doesn't operate in a static state it is a dynamic state . Also with out the presence of any visual markings showing material removal, how is it balanced?, this would be required to balance the piece in a dynamic since or a visual weight could be added to accomblish this as well but it has neither so how is it even possible to balance it in a dynamic state that the function of the part requires?
What's the runout of the part is that held to within .001" if so they they got one close, what about the runout relationship between the center bore with a loose mating tolerance and the O.D. of the part? this is why you balance a part dynamicly because it's tough to control the runout to an acceptable level to make it cost effect to make and throw in the loose fit and the key way pulling the part to one side to take up the loose tolerance. Checking the runout on the engine and it won't be as good as it was when you checked the part by it's self. Also funny how they are able to get the balance to exactly zero, jet engines that operate at 10 times the rpms are not even balanced to zero, damn close but still not zero and they are measured as a frequency not in ounces
Latest CAD
HHHMMMM so they used a fancy drafting system, did they follow through with FEA analysis, follow threw with CAM? Computer aided Drafting CAD computer aided manufacturing CAM.
I would think choosing to brag about the actual lathe type and manufacturer of the lathe would have more meaning and the actual type of balancing would hold more water than a bunch of generalized statements, but maybe it's just the designer in me nit picking the marketing department. Pick up a bearing catolog and read the front section do the same for the oil seals and you'll see that their recommended tolerances are far tighter than the .001" bragging in the ad.
Last edited by rcb2000; 11-19-2010 at 11:28 AM.
11-19-2010, 11:33 AM
#31
couple other issue I have with the wording in the sell's BS.
" tolerances to .001" "
well that might impress joe blow that isn't aware that the center bore of the part needs to be held to a much tighter tolerance and mates with a slip fit to ground journal that has a tolerance in the range .0005" -.0000" after all it's also the interface of the front oil seal, ever look what the supplier recommended tolerance's is for a proper seal and function of the part? .001" is a leaker in this case. after all that's plus or minus so that range is .002". spec oil journals and bearigns for a living you'll understand then and see how unimpressive this is.
balanced to 0
so is this staic or dynamic?, with quality equipement and a good SPC you can produce a part that doesn't require balancing in a static state, problem is this piece doesn't operate in a static state it is a dynamic state . Also with out the presence of any visual markings showing material removal, how is it balanced?, this would be required to balance the piece in a dynamic since or a visual weight could be added to accomblish this as well but it has neither so how is it even possible to balance it in a dynamic state that the function of the part requires?
What's the runout of the part is that held to within .001" if so they they got one close, what about the runout relationship between the center bore with a loose mating tolerance and the O.D. of the part? this is why you balance a part dynamicly because it's tough to control the runout to an acceptable level to make it cost effect to make and throw in the loose fit and the key way pulling the part to one side to take up the loose tolerance. Checking the runout on the engine and it won't be as good as it was when you checked the part by it's self. Also funny how they are able to get the balance to exactly zero, jet engines that operate at 10 times the rpms are not even balanced to zero, damn close but still not zero and they are measured as a frequency not in ounces
Latest CAD
HHHMMMM so they used a fancy drafting system, did they follow through with FEA analysis, follow threw with CAM? Computer aided Drafting CAD computer aided manufacturing CAM.
I would think choosing to brag about the actual lathe type and manufacturer of the lathe would have more meaning and the actual type of balancing would hold more water than a bunch of generalized statements, but maybe it's just the designer in me nit picking the marketing department. Pick up a bearing catolog and read the front section do the same for the oil seals and you'll see that their recommended tolerances are far tighter than the .001" bragging in the ad.
" tolerances to .001" "
well that might impress joe blow that isn't aware that the center bore of the part needs to be held to a much tighter tolerance and mates with a slip fit to ground journal that has a tolerance in the range .0005" -.0000" after all it's also the interface of the front oil seal, ever look what the supplier recommended tolerance's is for a proper seal and function of the part? .001" is a leaker in this case. after all that's plus or minus so that range is .002". spec oil journals and bearigns for a living you'll understand then and see how unimpressive this is.
balanced to 0
so is this staic or dynamic?, with quality equipement and a good SPC you can produce a part that doesn't require balancing in a static state, problem is this piece doesn't operate in a static state it is a dynamic state . Also with out the presence of any visual markings showing material removal, how is it balanced?, this would be required to balance the piece in a dynamic since or a visual weight could be added to accomblish this as well but it has neither so how is it even possible to balance it in a dynamic state that the function of the part requires?
What's the runout of the part is that held to within .001" if so they they got one close, what about the runout relationship between the center bore with a loose mating tolerance and the O.D. of the part? this is why you balance a part dynamicly because it's tough to control the runout to an acceptable level to make it cost effect to make and throw in the loose fit and the key way pulling the part to one side to take up the loose tolerance. Checking the runout on the engine and it won't be as good as it was when you checked the part by it's self. Also funny how they are able to get the balance to exactly zero, jet engines that operate at 10 times the rpms are not even balanced to zero, damn close but still not zero and they are measured as a frequency not in ounces
Latest CAD
HHHMMMM so they used a fancy drafting system, did they follow through with FEA analysis, follow threw with CAM? Computer aided Drafting CAD computer aided manufacturing CAM.
I would think choosing to brag about the actual lathe type and manufacturer of the lathe would have more meaning and the actual type of balancing would hold more water than a bunch of generalized statements, but maybe it's just the designer in me nit picking the marketing department. Pick up a bearing catolog and read the front section do the same for the oil seals and you'll see that their recommended tolerances are far tighter than the .001" bragging in the ad.
Static balance as dynamic balance is a non-issue due to the difference in weight compared to the stock part.
Oh and by the way to get from CAD it has to go through CAM then onto the CNC machine.
The type of CNC machine is irrelevant for the purposes of the consumer, it’s the material, tooling, program and operator that determine the end result. In your line of thinking that would make many Chinese facilities machining geniuses but unfortunately we know the real facts.
11-19-2010, 11:57 AM
#32
99.9% of the tolerances do not involve any press of interference fits parts. We only make 2 parts that require interference fit tolerancing so why market about less than 1% of our products when the other 99% fall in the other range.
Static balance as dynamic balance is a non-issue due to the difference in weight compared to the stock part.
Oh and by the way to get from CAD it has to go through CAM then onto the CNC machine.
The type of CNC machine is irrelevant for the purposes of the consumer, it’s the material, tooling, program and operator that determine the end result. In your line of thinking that would make many Chinese facilities machining geniuses but unfortunately we know the real facts.
Static balance as dynamic balance is a non-issue due to the difference in weight compared to the stock part.
Oh and by the way to get from CAD it has to go through CAM then onto the CNC machine.
The type of CNC machine is irrelevant for the purposes of the consumer, it’s the material, tooling, program and operator that determine the end result. In your line of thinking that would make many Chinese facilities machining geniuses but unfortunately we know the real facts.
Weight of the part has nothing to do with DYNAMIC balancing, runout and concentricity errors do and why you need to DYNAMICLY balance the parts.
The precision of the CNC equipement and it's repeatablity is the measure of a good part being produced on the piece of equipement, if the euqipments precision is only .001 your not going to produce a part better than what the machine is made, you have dumb luck on your side if you do, the operator using it and the material's chosen is what makes one stand out over the other after all the tool paths can be generated automatic by software in todays real world or manual by the operator from a print.
Also every CNC machine has manual entry and programing so you don't have to have a CAD file and a print is the minimum requirement, not the most efficent but works just as well. Not all CNC equipement is compatible with all CAD software, it's called post-processing and it converts the CAD file to a usable formatt for the actual CNC piece of equipement so you can run the tool paths on what ever software is appropriate for the CNC being used. Please don't try and BULLSHIT your way throught CAD/CAM or even robotics and what is and what isn't required to operate them, CIM ( COMPUTOR INTERGRATED MANUFACTURING ) degree from PURDUE, plus over 20 years first hand experince in my pocket, doubt you can say the same.
Last edited by rcb2000; 11-19-2010 at 12:00 PM.
11-19-2010, 01:05 PM
#33
slip fit was what I used, not interference fit, there is a major difference.
Weight of the part has nothing to do with DYNAMIC balancing, runout and concentricity errors do and why you need to DYNAMICLY balance the parts.
The precision of the CNC equipement and it's repeatablity is the measure of a good part being produced on the piece of equipement, if the euqipments precision is only .001 your not going to produce a part better than what the machine is made, you have dumb luck on your side if you do, the operator using it and the material's chosen is what makes one stand out over the other after all the tool paths can be generated automatic by software in todays real world or manual by the operator from a print.
Also every CNC machine has manual entry and programing so you don't have to have a CAD file and a print is the minimum requirement, not the most efficent but works just as well. Not all CNC equipement is compatible with all CAD software, it's called post-processing and it converts the CAD file to a usable formatt for the actual CNC piece of equipement so you can run the tool paths on what ever software is appropriate for the CNC being used. Please don't try and BULLSHIT your way throught CAD/CAM or even robotics and what is and what isn't required to operate them, CIM ( COMPUTOR INTERGRATED MANUFACTURING ) degree from PURDUE, plus over 20 years first hand experince in my pocket, doubt you can say the same.
Weight of the part has nothing to do with DYNAMIC balancing, runout and concentricity errors do and why you need to DYNAMICLY balance the parts.
The precision of the CNC equipement and it's repeatablity is the measure of a good part being produced on the piece of equipement, if the euqipments precision is only .001 your not going to produce a part better than what the machine is made, you have dumb luck on your side if you do, the operator using it and the material's chosen is what makes one stand out over the other after all the tool paths can be generated automatic by software in todays real world or manual by the operator from a print.
Also every CNC machine has manual entry and programing so you don't have to have a CAD file and a print is the minimum requirement, not the most efficent but works just as well. Not all CNC equipement is compatible with all CAD software, it's called post-processing and it converts the CAD file to a usable formatt for the actual CNC piece of equipement so you can run the tool paths on what ever software is appropriate for the CNC being used. Please don't try and BULLSHIT your way throught CAD/CAM or even robotics and what is and what isn't required to operate them, CIM ( COMPUTOR INTERGRATED MANUFACTURING ) degree from PURDUE, plus over 20 years first hand experince in my pocket, doubt you can say the same.
11-19-2010, 05:38 PM
#35
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I'm happy for you and your degree and your 20 years of experience but we have over 10 years of experience in modifying vehicles and Unorthodox Racing has over 15 years of manufacturing pulleys. So despite all your technical expertise it still doesn't change the fact the pulleys are machined correctly and are safe to install on daily driven J-series motors, and for that matter many more motors. There are a number of 200K+ J32's on the 2nd gen CL/TLs with this pulley and no adverse effects.
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bmore07tls (11-17-2012)
11-19-2010, 09:16 PM
#37
Senior Moderator
11-20-2010, 10:47 AM
#38
rcb2000, I'd suggest you read my link to K20A.org and don't reply again in this thread until you do. If you still think these are going to cause a problem after installation let us know.
This is a STUPID debate. The issue with the pulley is dampening harmonics, not balance. The fact that you are arguing balance shows you are thinking in old-domestic engine world. And the hamonic balance issue is pretty insignificant whan you get down into the crucks of the matter. These engines are simply not prone to failure by removing the thin rubber ring in the crank damper. Popular consensus among people who open their eyes and think in practical terms is that this damper is more to isolate noise and vabration in the belt coming from the drive accessories. It has nothing to do with engine longevity on these engines. It is all there in the link.
This is a STUPID debate. The issue with the pulley is dampening harmonics, not balance. The fact that you are arguing balance shows you are thinking in old-domestic engine world. And the hamonic balance issue is pretty insignificant whan you get down into the crucks of the matter. These engines are simply not prone to failure by removing the thin rubber ring in the crank damper. Popular consensus among people who open their eyes and think in practical terms is that this damper is more to isolate noise and vabration in the belt coming from the drive accessories. It has nothing to do with engine longevity on these engines. It is all there in the link.
11-23-2010, 07:41 AM
#40
you guys are too funny, nice market litureture lots of fluff in it, HHMMM wonder when they balance the crank at the factory if don't use bobb weights or account for all the other mass, internally balance crank is much different than a crank that is harmonicly balance, maybe counterweighted would be a better choice of words vs harmonic. But hey nothing like a looser fit makes the parts go on and off easier, just seems odd to have a clearance spec when it should be a slip but guess your not the one making the specifications and wouldn't really know the difference in the tolerances values or a class 1 fit from class 4 fit. or the difference between total runout and runout you just sell the stuff and repeat what your told.