Skirmich

Reading the DIY on the 1G TL forum:


Anyhow. Its a DIRECT BOLT ON. No fabrication, no special spacing, or "RIGGING" is necessary. This a bolt and play modification..


FRONT ROTOR: 95 LEGEND GS (2 DOOR COUPE MODEL)
Raybestos part number:RAY 96364 two of those for the fronts

BRAKE CALIPERS: 91-95 NA1 Acura NSX
The calipers you need are RAYBESTOS RC 10294 AND RC 10293


My question is: If those part Numbers are the same when Upgrading in a 2G TL-S??? I was just about to order the Legend Calipers but found out that I have some extra Cash to spend for the NSXs!! Need to Know if those parts are what I Need!!

Any reply Much Apreciated!!!!

fsttyms1

All you need are the calipers. Nothing else special. You still use brake pads for the TL.

TLer trash

Keep in mind that the piston area is almost identical between the legend and the tl calipers. It's actually smaller on the nsx calipers.

fsttyms1

Legend calipers are actually better for the fact they have a larger 2nd piston.

Also remember the right caliper goes on the left and the left on the right

Skirmich

About Legend Calipers!

So I heard that if you install them with the bleeder on the top side the Larger piston stays on the lower part and it was the wrong direction it doesnt matter?? Some say that would change the Bias or something like that.

I was about to buy them but I have this crazy idea that the NSXs were better if the Legends are the way to go it is Better and Cheaper yeahh!!! I quote them in autozone at 140+ bucks Refurbished/New.

TLer trash

Most everyone on this forum has done them with the bleeders up, and I haven't heard of a single problem yet. There was some discussion about how they should be mounted on one of the honda forums before it caught on over here. The advantages to having the larger piston in the trailing position with the smaller one leading are; 1.Helps to keep pads from wearing more at the leading edge. 2.Helps to eliminate squealing. 3.Improves pedal modulation. This is all I was able to find. No one here has had a problem with any of these that I know of. If you're anal about it, like me, you can run them bleeders down. You just have to remove the lower mounting bolt and flip the caliper up about 1/4 turn to bleed.

Skirmich

What I found wierd is that he post the same part Number like he want us to buy the same caliper for both sides? whats up with that?

I dont care to flip it to bleed them if thats the only problem I would have a little piece of mind too..

TLer trash

If it's the same part number, you're getting two lefts or two rights. They are almost always 1 digit apart. Check rock auto or someone like them.

01tl4tl

gen2 TL= Raybestos 96 Legend LS-C calipers are FRC10627 & FRC10628
these have pistons the closest together in diameter- its a few MM, not enough to matter
I studied every set available for size difference-

that number gets you new bolts and sliders- remove from new parts and use on original TL bracket

There is a major misunderstanding on the caliper side swapping-
its got nothing to do with inverting the calipers- those who have the bleeder on the bottem are doing something WRONG- thats not how you get air out~
the TOP of the caliper is the top of the caliper!!
the legend ran them on the back of the strut- we use the front,
so in order for the bolts to all go into the stock TL mounting bracket - we install the left caliper on right side of car-in normal bleeder UP position,,and right on left
the calipers have a large L or R cast on the upper surface

cleaned old, or new sliders with caliper grease on them will prevent squeals
a little on the pad backs where they contact to pistons or outer fingers is needed.
The pads should have slight floating movement when its all done,,pump the brake pressure up and pads should rest about 1mm off the rotors when not in use

do NOT use the legend bracket- it only APPEARS to fit... until you try to tighten the bolts

this concludes my 25,000th!!! posting to azine in 5 years
Yikes

03tLsNBP

iTrader: (9)

CONGRATS 01tl4tl!

im definitely considering the Legend caliper route. only 60 bucks per caliper on rockauto.

would it be advisable to upgrade to stainless steel brake lines as well since it is dual piston?

Karanx7

iTrader: (2)

Lol, why isn't Tom a mod?

Does anyone have more posts than him?

fsttyms1

No, no one does

https://acurazine.com/forums/memberl...s&pp=30&page=1

03tLsNBP

iTrader: (9)

interesting. i didnt realize there were so many moderators.

how come "soopa" doesnt post anymore?

fsttyms1

He used to be the owner of the site, he has since sold it and moved on.

Also most members dont even realize how big the site is and all of the sub forums.

TLer trash

I don't think right or wrong is as clearly defined as you do with respect to caliper position. It seems to me like a choice where neither way is ideal. The easy way is bleeders up, which negates any benefit from having differential piston sizing. Bleeders down requires an additional 5 - 10 minutes to bleed, as you have to remove the lower caliper bolt and pivot the caliper up 90 degrees. That and you have to remove the wheel.
I don't see confusion, I see a choice. The fact that you chose differently than me doesn't make you right any more than it does me. I know I'm in the minority on this, at least on this forum, but if someone is interested in the differences as skirmich seemed to be, why not give them the facts and let them decide.

Skirmich

Actually he did in a PM, So I did order them up this morning I will install them with the bleeder down (Like they should be Installed) I dont care about an extra 5-10 minutes to bleed if they do work like they were intended!! Soo

I Apreciate your time to Respond to all of You and Many Kudos to the Site, Acurazine always helps alot when Doing stuff to the old TL-S...

01tl4tl

are you sticking a block of wood in the caliper to bleed it?

while I have not seen the nsx calipers, I do know the Legend dual pistons are not inverted to install- you walk them around the car and use on opposite side of strut--why is this a mystery or believed to be bad?
the bleeder stays on top= where it belongs-
They are fine like this, just different than `marked` (easier to identify in an assembly line bin of parts back in the 90s) from original use

If they didnt have L and R stamped on them- you wouldnt ever have known!
they fit many many vehicles besides acura

The actual differance in piston size- for this part number- is so small as to not matter to anyone but those running the Advanced group at track days
and they wont care- its a street Touring Luxury car!! and they are running a brembo BBK or wilwood 6 piston caliper and larger rotors--now those are rock and roll

Skirmich

Send you a PM 01tl4tl!!!

Thanks for the Clear Up! I dont have the Calipers Yet but yup I was on the impression that the Different Piston was around the same for both calipers thats why I mixed up situations here lol.

Then Legend Calipers = Same
NSXs Calipes = Inverted!

Got It! Thanks

01tl4tl

I dont know how they run nsx calipers only how legends were run and work for us
Never in my decades around cars have I seen a caliper with the bleeder on the bottem

Ok once,,, on a bike builder show where they screwed up and only way to mount caliper was inverted..but that was a show bike so didnt matter

TLer trash

I know it seems dead wrong to have the bleeder screw at the bottom, but look at some race calipers and you'll sometimes find two bleeders, one at each end. Sometimes it will be a real bleeder, sometimes an allen head plug like on some brembos. If you look at the legend calipers you can see a casting boss where another bleeder could go. You would never find one bleeder on the bottom of a caliper designed for a specific application, but the legend calipers were not designed for our specific application.

01tl4tl

but WHY would you run them upside down -when the piston size differance is so little and of no relative importance for our application???

Yes many parts are made with extra casting ports to use on different vehicles.
that caliper is on many other cars besides the legend series, the JDM cars got much better stuff than we ever did

Like I said, if the big L or R were not cast on the caliper top- you would never know there was even a different use for them
You would take box #27 and install on right side..as instucted

01tl4tl

note the allen bolts found on gen3 brembos are not bleeders- they hold the caliper halves together!

if there is a lower bleeder on a multi piston caliper- its to assist in initial lower air removal.
With multi places to hide in the back of each piston- air gets trapped easily during install or when system open--as brembo cars would be for frequent work- race car type use

TLer trash

Why wouldn't you take advantage of the piston sizing when the trade-off is 10 minutes of work? You of all people seem to want to do anything in the very best possible manner. I realize the advantage may be small; heavier, faster cars than ours use same size pistons. Even some race cars. My problem is that Acura went to the added trouble and expense to do it this way so I can't bring myself to put them on backwards.

TLer trash

The fitting I'm referring to is NOT one of the bolts that hold the caliper together. It's a solid, not drilled through, screw with a bleeder seat on one end and an allen head on the other. They may not be on the 3rd gen brembos, but other brembo applications. It's also possible that I saw them on another brand caliper and just brain farted. I don't buy the idea of a bleeder at the bottom to let air out, it doesn't make sense. I think it's just to make a caliper fit more applications. If the legend calipers had two bleeders wouldn't you put them on in their correct orientation even if they were stamped for different sides?

01tl4tl

the real point here is the different sizes of the caliper pistons

If you just look up legend calipers on kragens- it had 3 pages of choices!!
fsttyms1 provided a spec chart with every year and models piston sizes

the ones I listed and use on my 01- are so close together as for it not to matter
Others were several mm diff- that is a big deal-
Will ck old pads for imprint size of pistons--visually its almost even and the pad wear was perfect/even across the pad,, down to the last 1mm of material

the bleeder goes on top-DONE
when skirmch does his there will be current validation on this

TLer trash

I did a fair amount of research on this before I did this both here and on honda forums. I also looked through aftermarket brake catalogs as well as acura factory info. I've never seen fsttyms chart, but what I came up with is short and simple. 91 to 96 nsx used a two piston caliper with 36 and 40 mm pistons. 98 to 05 nsx used a two piston caliper with 34 and 40 mm pistons. 93 to 95 legend coupe and 94 to 95 legend gs sedan used a two piston caliper with 38 and 42 mm pistons. That's it. Three choices. The rest of the legend choices are single piston units.
You can trivialize this difference all you want, but it's there for a reason, and I don't see a good reason not to take advantage of it.
The fact that you're happy with you set up is all well and good, but I've seen people reverse primary and secondary shoes on drum brakes with no problems or complaints. I've seen the same with directional tires. In neither case would I send the car out that way.
As far as validation I don't think we have to wait for anyone. I've got almost three years and about 50k on mine with great results, no uneven wear, noise, etc., but some of the honda guys have about 8 or 9 years this way.
Yes, a bleeder has to point up, but only when you're using it. For me that's 10 minutes every year or two. For the remainder of the time, it doesn't matter where it points. Done!

01tl4tl

4 mm piston size differance,, when you look at used pads- on the back where the contact is made, is so marginal--
that for the average TL user on this upgrade:
stay with basic install- bleeder up where it will be easy to reach, and may even encourage them to flush the fluid a bit more often

Fresh fluid does wonders for pedal feel--when moisture gets in thru hygroscopic action, it makes the pedal feel spongy
overheating fluid gives similar result
You will hear guys at first track day, on OE pads and old fluid- saying: `wow! at the end of the session I had noooooo pedal`

those people.. we offer a quick lesson in brake fluid change trackside

Spoilaz

can you post a link to where you got them from? or exact pn because RAY 96364 is not giving me anything usefull

Spoilaz

dug a little more and found this way down in a different thread.....

rebuilt legend calipers not new
referance numbers: raybestos frc10627 frc10628
thats left and right with new bracket- you strip the new bolts and slider plates of the bracket and use them on the original TL brackets
everything else stays TL

http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/rafr...RC10627-481308

01tl4tl

I went thru kragens-now Oreillys, online order and shipped for discount,
then returned old parts to local store for instant credit on the cores

this was before we knew they love getting modern TL calipers in exchange for those `hard to sell, old legend calipers`,,, LOL at them!

so it doesnt matter if you return to a place or store--its ok to bring what you have

back then -concern over not getting core refund when shipping to real place that knew what they were looking at--versus store ---where they said, `what are these--calipers`--ok

01tl4tl

SS lines are awesome if in your budget at this time

remember to buy a $3 oil squirt can to prefill the calipers as much as possible before install
harbor freight tools has them or hardware store-parts store
buy 2 of the rubber `line plugs` a dollar each.. at parts store-cuts down on mess and air getting into abs modulator

VIP typ-S

I've had the NSX calipers on my car for 2 years and love them. I installed them with S.S. brake lines and Motul brake fluid, which I flush every 10 or 12 months. I love a FIRM pedal. Yes I had to swap sides with them and yes they work fine.

01tl4tl

question: do you have real actual NSX `aluminum` verrrrrry expensive calipers?
maybe liberated from a wreck?

or ones that `FIT the nsx` but are made from the much heavier steel- that ours and other calipers are made from?

was there any issue with location of inlet fitting for brake line? longer brake line needed? or other issues--stories have varied is why I ask

Skirmich

WoW I quite forgot about this Thread hehehe My Calipers are all On now! Legend´s that is.

The Stopping bite got its upper Hand! its incredible comfortable to rely soo much on this Brakes, I was a Little exceptical cuz it wasnt OEM and my previous meets with Raybestos wasnt good either but HELL they did at least something right!

Now I need to replace my RED STUFFs cuz it sucks soooo baddd assss Need my YELLOWS!!! Well 2 good thing with the Red Stuffs is that compared to Yellows are virtually/Physically NON DUSTY...
The Amount of Dust the Red Stuffs does in 2 weeks gets done in One Stop with the Yellow Stuffs Really bad bad bad when you got Good Wheels...
Also the Cold Bite is Impressive, I was sooo used to the Shitty cold bite with the Yellows that was literally a Divine Intervention here!

But when it comes to Really really hard Stops thats where the line is drawn between Red and Yellow, The Fade is Impressive compared to Yellows...

Thats my Mini Review to Legend Caliper and EBC Red Stuff´s...
Pics? I dunno why I didnt take out of the Installation im used to take pictures of everything but I was sooo Hyped that I forgot! hehehe

01tl4tl

which way did you mount the calipers?
try RacingBrake ET500 pads,,,for the serious street racer

Skirmich

The bleeders are On Top no issues at all, Also Now I understand the Original Legend bracket thingy you mentioned hehehe!
New Bolts and "Dusty Cushions" < (Forgot Actual Name) are Welcome!

I actually thinked the 2 Piston size difference would be bigger like the NSXs but isnt really that big! I was going to Install like it "should" be but Like you mentioned I rather bleed my Brakes more Often now that I roll on DOT5.1 than caring for Piston Sizes or Uses really, Having air/Water in my Brakes is not Fun!!

Wich Brand that Pads are? If they arent as Dusty like the Yellow Stuff and Brakes the Same it would be GREAT!

01tl4tl

www.racingbrake.com or see our vendor MrHeelToe for them
get the pad series ET500
a little dust that you can correct by waxing the rims,,brake dust is a normal thing from contact and wear
the et500 has good stopping power that last thru all temps and speeds,, will blow your mind
Late brake when you want, repeated slow downs in the mountains no prob

I ran the 300 series, wife approved for quiet and her all too frequent `panic brake non-abs active` stopping from 80 to 20 or stopped,,, when not paying attention to traffic~
cars behind may have to take to the shoulder and sail past you-- as you are able to stop before a crash,,but they cant outstop you!

my 300s were subjected to more severe use than ever intended by the maker and wore out early,,so its 500s this time

Skirmich

Well they are in the same Price range than the Yellow Stuffs!
Im goona try them once my Red Stuffs are gone!

How about the ETs800s? but im Wondering about Rotor Life with some aggresive pads.

HOLY! Have you heard Experiences with their OEM Size Floating Rotor Replacements????
Im getting hyped about them...
http://www.racingbrake.com/TL_3_2L_I...2067-381-5.htm
But at 340 each isnt exactly cost effective...

01tl4tl

their standard slotted rotor with curved inner vanes are the way to go for street drivers.
the rotors will go thru 5+ sets of pads before they are toast, and never need surfacing during that time. You may not have the car anymore by then

800s would be for track days, need operating temp in them and the bite would be too much normal use, but when braking down 40-80 mph every 15 seconds on a race track = they get reallly hot and cool just enough to be effective for the next corner

01tl4tl

note--your rotor life will be reduced by harder pads and track days,,
but we bought them to go play,,you want to play = you must pay