norcalsguy

Hello all,

I decided to ask some performance minded folks I know what they though about Japanese sport sedans. These are the typical replys I got:

1) They are souless

2) The gearing is too far apart

3) Front wheel drive

4) Steering is vauge or numb

5) Poor road feel

6) No BMW like handling

7) Bland interior

8) Inferior interior components

I'm confused I have an 03 TLS and it to me has none of these characteristics plus typically more power but people still have this preception. I feel qualified to make this judgment since I also have an 01 A4 1.8TQ chiped other mods.

What do people here think?

-Norcalsguy

1SICKLEX

Well some Japanese cars, not all....

Well you have to agree with some of the items you listed but overall, some people are so close-minded it's not even funny.

Ray_Khan

people on the Audi board I hang on a very anti japanese. It's either audi or BMW to most or nothing. THere are some well informed open mided people there like myslef who love Japanese cars. If the CLS 6 speed were available a while back, I'd have been in one in a second. FWD isn't as fun as RWD, but it's not the only criteria I care about. Acura (and some other japanaese sport sedans) lacking the manual trannys for so long was a downer to me. Otherwise, I find the interiors subjective. I love Acura and hondas, I hate nissan and infinity interiors and I'm ok with Lex/toyaota, but noth thrilled. I like Audi, but BMW is kust ok as far as interiors go. The reliability of Japanase cars is great. Also, mods are so much cheaper than German car mods. Out of warranty parts/labor are cheaper for japanese. You probably won't need them, if you go german, you probably will. Anyway, you have a good point....there are a lot of people who don't consider japanese cars for silly reason...it's their loss.

norcalsguy

Hey Ray,

I remeber you from AW I was Norcalguy I havn't been there in a while just got tired of some of the BS and all the car bashing ie rice this and that it's really too bad

-Norcalsguy

Dirk Diggler

I think the Jap cars aren't as good looking as german cars, but that's just my opinion. However, some newer model Jap sedans are really good looking, such as the Altima, the G35, and that cool Lexus coupe.

Gearing too far apart? I've never heard that, and I think the gearing in the 5spd auto TL's are much closer ratio than most other cars...

FWD can be a bummer for the ultimate sport sedan driver, but if you can't handle any compromises, you can always buy a vette. For us everyday drivers with winter weather to face, FWD is a major bonus.

I'd have to agree with the vague steering comment. An Audi or BMW gives really good road feel, something I've never felt in a Jap or US car...

Dirk Diggler.

chiawei

True on every point except #8.

Go out and drive a real german car.

Germand car has cheaper material inside, unless you spend $$$ to get higher end models.

SergeyM

I traded my TL-S to 540ia and I only agree with 2, 3, 5 and 6. I would add poor stability at higher speeds though.

AcuraTLFan

2, We have 2 over gear drives, like 1 isn't enough?
3, Only a bunch of cars are RWD.
5, Can't descibe it, not smmooth but not rough
6, Nothing handles llike a BMW unless it is a BMW
7, The interior is made to be eronomical *did i spell that right?* Doesn't have a look of "wam bam in ur face" look like the new Nissan Z
8, I think every TL/CL Owner agrees....scratches like nothing.

bigpow

Seem more like prejudice to me...

Some folks are lucky enough to own BMW or LEXUS, but how many are they compared to the ones driving old Hondas or Toyotas?

IMO: rich people can have everything they want... but, once they start feeling that they're too good for anything less, that where they start loosing it.

e.g.: Just like those folks who think Walmart or other low priced stores are not good enough for them

ChucksCL-S

IMO German autos evolved from their geography; mountains, hills, winding country roads and autobauns. Also great engineering minds and stiff competition. Japanese cars got in this market by skillfully identifying our needs and building great cars to fill it.

yahtzee

So what, there are more hyundais on the road than acuras...

Quote:

IMO: rich people can have everything they want... but, once they start feeling that they're too good for anything less, that where they start loosing it.

So you are saying the Acura is part of the "anything less" bracket?

Quote:

e.g.: Just like those folks who think Walmart or other low priced stores are not good enough for them

There is a difference in buying your toilet paper there and your wardrobe there.

rominl

1) well i don't know, if anything i don't really know how to apprecaite the soul of the 745il.......

2) well it depends, for an auto i think we are doing pretty good already. heck they can't compete with us when doing long trips without adding fuel.....

3) sorry but i have to say RWD rules.... i have the gs400 (yes, japanese!) and i can tell RWD is the way to go when you haver power. to me 260hp is pretty much the max for tls already. with a car that long and large, having that much power in the front and using that to turn is just too much for the car to handle, understeer all the time when you wanna make fast turns. on my gs4, much heavier and more power, i can go faster and turn a lot better.

4) it's getting better, but at least on tls i still think the steering is way too loose. the gs400 is much tighter, and the is300 is even better than the bimmers

5) that's the compensation for luxury. basically you want a driving machine, or you want a comfy ride?

6) on the tls yes the handling is pretty bad compared to german cars, but it's mostly coz' of the FWD. the gs400 and the is300 are both RWD and they have decent handling. with resonable mods the gs400 can handle as good as m5.

7) 8) well i have to stay on japanese side on this one for a lot of reasons. basically i'd rather have a plain dash with little buttons (just enough for me to control the electronics while driving) rather than having 120 buttons around me like a space shuttle. i would probably crash the car before i can play the cd. look at the new 745il, so many buttons and seems like no one can really master the i-drive.


so in short, i don't agree with most of the points entirely, but yes there aer still a lot of homework for japanese car makers. imho lexus has really climbed out of the valley and showed the world that they are among the best, even with european imports.

simply if you compare japanese cars and european cars, they are in two different directions, one is about comfort and one is about power, and they are both trying to reach the other end. and to me it's obvious that the japanese cars are reaching the power end much faster than the german cars reaching the comfort end. it depends on what you want. if you want your wife nap nicely in the car, get the japanese, if you want the ultimate driving machine, you know what to get.

so what i think japanese manufacturers should do? for each model make two types of options, luxury and sport, just like the tls. however, for god's sake they should have put in more sporty setup on the cars. my theory is if you are going to do it do it right. i still think the tls setup is kinda floaty in between, not luxury and not sport enough. stiffer shocks, lower springs, thicker sways, more rigid body. people like us who buy these cars already look more on performance, not on comfort.

and once again i think lexus is definitely what other japanese companies should follow. they have shown what it takes to beat the german with their ultra luxury ls430, and with the gs430 and is300 they showed what's a nice combination of performance and luxury

ok i probably b!tched too much

rominl

not really, i wouldn't think that way, and to me i think a true car enthusiast wouldn't think that way. i have the tls and the gs400, and i know how to apprecaite both cars.

to be frank, there is no doubt i like the gs400 more for obvious reasons. yes you would argue it's a more expensive cars, and i agree totally. but it's not like i hate or dislike the tls. i think as long as you don't get something very weird there is always something you can like about it.

for example i like the styling on my tls more, i like the sound of the vtec, the cupholders, the lateral support of the seats. for the gs i like the rwd, torque power, quietness, etc....

norcalsguy

Thanks everyone for your takes on Japanese cars ect. I too have both a German sport sedan ala Audi A4 1.8TQMS and a Acura TLS they both shine to me in different ways. I'll argue though I beleive the most superior setup is AWD opposed to both FWD and RWD. Try an Audi S4 some time 250hp stock awd chip it 310hp still 12k more than the TLS as far as value can't touch the TLS.

Cheers,
Norcalsguy

samkws

TL is a pretty gd car indeed...i prefer a FWD car coz of the weather here....who needs BMW handling when there are no mountains and twists here?? the interior design is brilliant and the controls are easily found and use...it's my everyday car

JaDia4

I think its reputation....It seems to me that the Japanese cars WERE known for affordability, small size and great gas mileage, the Euros were known for high-end performance or luxury and being expensive, and the Americans were known for muscle and guzzling gas. I wouldn't be surprised if the general public still thought that way. When ever I wanted a car with quality that would last a long time I thought japanese. As far as being soulless, tell that to an integra owner. I just think that other than prejudice the lack of "cult classic cars" from Japan and Europe leaves Americans wishing for and still respecting the Camaros, Mustangs, GTO's, Hemi's, anything with a 454. Most foreign cars probably don't have that cult-like following in the general public except maybe a 911, Ferarri, and other exotics.

Turboara

Umm, people should drive what they like, my friends with German cars say the same things to me as I've only had Japanese cars, what do I care?? I smoke my friends with boxters and 911s and M3s and 530s with my 12 year old eagle talon which does 13's in the 1/4, I am more comfortable on road trips with 4 people & luggage than anyone with a 325/330 or A4 in my TL-s, and to top it all off I didn't spend nearly as much as they did.

What I say: German cars are over-priced, require more maintenance, generally suck in the winter.... but I guess they need to say something to justify the extra $$$ they spent. I think at some point it is more of an ego thing than a car thing. My friends with BMWs (I have many of them, I'm a lawyer) would not even consider looking at a Japanese car, maybe, just maybe a Lexus. If it's worth 10K or more to tell people you drive a BMW or a Benz, more power to you, but that does not make an Acura an inferior car.
my $.02

Ray_Khan

people make a big deal about FWD being better in the winter than RWD.....when it comes down to it, they both suck. Very few people I've talked to run a real winter tire. Most run all season (which is a weird american thing) or just run summer tires all year and try to be careful. I played around with my Audi and Z rated tires in the snow......it's so scary. I can't imagine doing it without the AWD. If you spend some $$$ and get nice winter tires....it shouldn't matter if you have FWD or RWD. This doesn't mean you can do performance drivig, ut you shoudln't feel unsafe.

My cousin asks me why he maxima se handles so poorly in the snow. She wonders is it because her car is so fast and powerful. I try not to laugh at her, but ask her what she is runnign for tires. I find out they are the tires she got on the car....the se has some type or crappy sport tire, but a sport tire no less. Forget about the tread, even the materials in summer tires are different than in winter tires. So she decides to invest in all season...against my word. They are better than the summers for winter driving, but are still apoor choice to me. If you jsut run 2 sets of tires, you get the best performance and you get more fun summer miles from a summer tires and more safe winter miles from winter tires. And you don't settle for all seasons which don't do anything well.

With that said would acura please make a 3.5L CLS six speed w/ 300 hp and RWD or AWD.

norcalsguy

"German cars are over-priced, require more maintenance, generally suck in the winter.... "

[B]

I would agree with you on all points except the winter coment try driving an Audi quattro sometime in the snow. It will make you a believer. I took mine to Tahoe last year and drove echo summit while it was snowing it drove almost like I was on dry pavment.
I agree with you on the overpriced bit and the extra maintenance.

Cheers,
Norcalsguy

paul_huryk

I agree with you 100%.

I think the average person has this perception that if they spend more or have a more desireable brand/item it makes them feel better (sometimes superior) than the average guy/gal with average stuff. The ego takes over for that extra $10,000 spent on their cvar over yours - i.e. "mine is german, so it is better; it is more expensive, so it is better; it is RWD, so its better; it has more features, so its better; it has more technology, so its better; I own it, so its better". Makes me kinda sick that quite a few americans out there are that shallow and possessive. I figure those are the people who buy expensive (yet trendy) clothers, big house, and do nothing but talk about how great they are doing.

Many of you may be in the same boat as me - I bought my TL-S because I thought it was a hell of a car and value, not because it is favored by a particular demographic segment. I'll be honest, I could have walked into a BMW dealer and bought anything in there - maybe even the whole dealership, but didn't want to spend an extra $10k to have a certain car when the one I bought is the one for me.

Now I'm not saying certain types of cars are crap - but not all are as good as some people think. A good example is some idiot I used to work with - he thought his Boxster was almost invincible (spending $53k will do that). So I set up a race with a friend's Camaro (a 13.8 car), beat him by 6-8 cars. He gave excuses like bad launch, didn't shift it right... But he went on and on about the handling, build quality, woman appeal. Well sure, some of those things are true - but is it worth $53k, only if you have to satisfy your ego/other's opinions.

Now when I bought my TL-S, I shopped around - Mazda Millenia S (I get a discount working for Ford), Volvo (Ford Discount), Maxima, Lexus, Infiniti... Regardless of price, the TL lit my fire. I laughed when the Lexus salesman told me the ES300 was a better car because it is a Toyota (Lexus) than the Acura (only a Honda, for god's sake). Then I grilled the foll: why only 210hp, smaller car, still FWD, higher price... He said that Lexus owners are looking for prestige and are willing to pay extra for the honor of buying one (its not a friggin Diablo, ding-dong).

Now if I wanted to spend more on a car, I still would have bought my car - I would have pocketed the rest.

hemants

Stereotypes are a great time saver!

Well, not really but that's how people use them.

"Oh, I don't want to consider that car, it's Japanese"

etc. etc.

That being said, many stereotypes are based loosely on something with a grain of truth.

Want soulless? Go drive a Camry. A Passat is much more "soulfull" but no more so than a Maxima SE or TLS.

The Pedigree of a car is the LEAST important thing IMO.

Car decisions come down to this:

size, engine, drive train, suspension tuning, luxury features and creature comforts.

If I find the car I want with a reliability/quality record that I'm happy with, I couldn't care less if it was German or Japanese.

bigpow

paul_huryk: I couldn't have said it better than you. Well done!
I happen to know a friend of mine that thinks a 250K$ Ferrari would automatically make him able to drive like Schumacker...

samkws

if i can only afford one car, i wouldn't want a car that can't drive in snow...audi is the exception coz it is either FWD and AWD...

and i wouldn't want a BMW xi coz it ain't reallie a BMW....

for the lawyers, doctors,...among i know they won't even take a look at the jap cars coz ur buddies will laugh at u...

i don't give a damn for the tires...most ppl opt for all season coz most of them cannot afford an extra set of tire like some of us do here...but i hate the stock tires on TL thou

Monte TLS,MAX

I Agree!

91M5

Lots of RWD BMW's and Mercedes in Germany. BTW, it does snow there. Snow tires and half a brain and you can get by just fine.

I find people resort to stereotypes about the owners of all cars. It is not true that the only reason people buy BMW's is the badge. Maybe true for some but not others. Let people spend their money any way they want to. If you think you are immune to status or image, would you all drive a Camry? Gives you most of what a TLS does as a practical matter. Of course not, you are wiling to spend the extra money for some more power and refinement. That's your choice. Just as a BMW owner may be willing to spend the extra money for a BMW. The universal hatred of them on the internet is almost comical. I will say it is a testament to BMW's reputation and marketing that people ALWAYS use BMW as the measuring stick.

KJ32

If we were not limited to so few great Japanese sport sedans and coupes, some of those people who make such statement against Japanese would change their tone. To name a few, the legendary Nissan Skyline GTR R34 with 4-wheel steer, 4-wheel drive, one of the sweetest I-6 engines on Earth, The S15, The NSX TypeR and NSX S-Zero, Toyota Levin, Mazda RX7 (no longer made in Japan). It's the extra $ they pay make them think foreign cars are better than Japanese cars. However, there are some area in foreign cars are better than Japanese, like Lambo and Ferrari's craftmanship and design. It's all depending on taste. Some like chicken wing, some like chicken breast.

KCTLS

It has been most interesting to read everyones opinions on this topic and I agree with most of you in that The TLS is a superb value and a great car on top of that. I completely agree that many cars more expensive than a TL are not really worth it and as a 20's something TLS owner I can't really think of another car that would have been better for the money or even 5K more.

The first car I bought out of college was a Silver 1999 Mercedes Benz SLK AMG sport. I did not buy the car because it was a mercedes, i did not buy it because it was German. I did buy it because, perhaps like many of you, I look at a car as a piece of art in certain ways. This is one reason that I plan to own a car such as a Corvette or Porsche (as a 2nd car to my TLS of course) in my life because of how the car looks. In complete honesty, I was embarassed to an extent to tell others I owned a Mercedes and would skirt the issue entirely most of the time. First of all I was young and despite having worked many job to save for the money, many people assumed it was purchased for me etc. Well, I loved that car for what it did do well but alas its many impracticalities did it in. The biggest one: the fact that it was a Mercedes! Yea it was the most beautiful car I've owned (the TLS is my best sedan!) but there was just too much stigma surrounding it. Also, the car had some quality issues. The interior would scratch when resting your arm for periods of time on it and in fact many owners had theirs repainted repeatedly. The retractable hardtop sometimes froze and worst of all, when started up cold in the mornings the engine would choke and then either die from RPM"S that were too low or it would rev up to like 3500 on its own. This was on a car with only 4K miles!

Anyways, I traded it in 6K miles later for a TLS and best of all I got what I paid for it in the first place. Sometimes I miss having a car that looked like it but in no way would I ever defend Mercedes for either their quality or namesake. As for the Acura, it has 3200 miles and I have loved every second of it! No probs whatsoever and the service is great. You should see how Mercedes service people treat anyone younger than 30!

Someone said it best in an earlier post that if anyone who doesnt consider a Japanese car its their loss!

1SICKLEX

Well he might be right.

SergeyM

People often confuse better car with car that is better for them. E.g. Lexus ES300 is a better car that Acura TL-S. On the other hand it is not a good car for me since I value performance more that luxury and build quality. So I would never buy or even consider buying ES 300. The same may be said about LS 430 vs. BMW 540. Though I've got 540 for myself, I do realize that LS 430 is a better overall car.

AKRY

I have to say, those points would be right 10 years ago..but not any more....

HOWEVER, I have to say, that German DOES make the most rigid chassis/body.... thus more precise handling/high speed stability.... and Jap makes more FWD because it's cheaper to make... hehe.. other than that... rest of the points are mostly stereotype.....

Andy Kuo

paul_huryk

Sure the Germans make a stiff chassis - who would pay $40k for a car as flimsy as a Ford Festiva? But it is not true that rigidity makes good handling/stabilty - if so a Hummer (or other full frame truck) would be the best handling vehicles - they unfortunately aren't. Handling has to do with center of gravity, spring and sway bar stiffness, shock valving, and tires. High speed stability has to do with suspension and aerodynamics (about equal in importance). Some cars that feel darty at low speeds are absolutely glued to the pavement at very high speeds; others feel good at low speeds and suck at high speeds - its sometimes a tradeoff.

The reason the Japs make a lot of FWD cars is the fact that it weighs less and gets better mileage (typically) - also less running gear and better foul weather traction. I guess the IS300, LS430, GS430, S2000, Miata, 350Z, RL, NSX are all FWD?

SergeyM

I've got it wrong with RL. RL is a rear-driver.

samkws

RL is a front drive car

hemants

Last I checked RL was RWD no?

SergeyM

I tried to be funny but mistyped the sentence. It supposed to say "You've got it wrong" not "I".

1SICKLEX

RL= FWD.