Gomez

Letting your car idle for a long time is BAD for the engine. Note that in the manual you're supposed to go to the 'severe driving conditions' maintenence schedule if you 'spend long periods of time idling' the engine.

This is because the oil pump spins at a speed directly correlated with engine speed, and therefore oil pressure is at its lowest at idle. Thus, less sweet oil gets pushed into those tight nooks and crannies in the engine at idle than when running normally. You'd see this if the car had an oil pressure gauge instead of the idiot light.

Long story short: don't let the car run for a long time when warming up, just idle maybe 15-30 seconds then drive SLOWLY (i.e. - at low engine speeds) until it warms up. You will know it is warming when the temp gauge starts moving upwards; that happens when the thermostat opens up and starts letting coolant circulate around and through the block. Capiche?

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'01 White Diamond Pearl 3.2TL
-Wing, tint, burlwood shift, Whistler 6-band
'88 White RX-7 Convertible
-Permanent tinitus courtesy of Rockford-Fosgate

Shoofin

.....which is what I do.....
Ed

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Acura-TL.com - Forum Moderator

'99 TL Satin Silver/Ebony, Non/Nav, Comptech lowered, Comptech Air Filter Element, Inspire Tails, AEM Brake Pads all around, Comptech Axle Back Exhaust, "Guy Smiley" doll on the dash as my Co-driver...

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NBP TL

Gomez i never heard that explaination. Very interesting point. Im not sure how cold it gets down there in Texas but up here its mighty cold in the winter and i havent figured out a way to get the inside warm without running the car. Anyone have any ideas?

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2001 BLACK/EBONY NON-NAV, FACTORY SPOILER, BURLWOOD SHIFT KNOB, RAZO CARBON FIBER PEDALS, WEAPON R HYPER INTAKE

Guest

capiche...thanks for that explanation

hunter001

In my opinion, the reason for following the "severe driving condition" when idling for LONG PERIODS OF TIME is that, when the engine is idly running, theoretically, your car should have moved xxx amount of miles during that idling period. So, even though your odometer shows, say 3500 miles (because inspite of your engine running, your car has not moved an inch), your engine has "virtually" run more than say 7500 miles....which is why, in case of long idling, you have to assume that the engine has run for a distance a lot longer than what is shown on the odometer.....and hence you should change the fluids accordingly....which means that you have to change the oil like a "severe driving condition" = "more frequently", even though in reality it is not even close to a "severe driving condition"....my take...



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2000 Naples Gold 3.2TL/Navi - Factory Stock but with up-graded tires

Gomez

Well, it doesn't usually get really cold here, but last night saw about 20 degrees farentheit. Not 'Fargo' cold (thank God), but still cold enough.

As far as warming your cabin up, well, don't let me stop you from doing that! Just make sure to stay on top of your oil changes. My point was merely that running your car for a long time to warm the engine up is not going to make it last any longer, as some people would believe.

Note also that the manual says that using the seat heaters at "high" wlile idling the car will slowly drain the battery and decrease battery life (i.e. - it saps power faster than the alternator can recharge it at idle.) I wouldn't worry too much, but it's probably not a good idea to put 'em both on high for an hour while you shower in the morning!

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'01 White Diamond Pearl 3.2TL
-Wing, tint, burlwood shift, Whistler 6-band
'88 White RX-7 Convertible
-Permanent tinitus courtesy of Rockford-Fosgate

Gomez

Hunter001 - intriguing theory, and possibly on the money.

I was only parroting what I've read in mechanics books, and I've also heard Click and Clack's "Car Talk" say the same thing. I'm not sure, but I seem also to remember reading the point I made in Consumer Reports...

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'01 White Diamond Pearl 3.2TL
-Wing, tint, burlwood shift, Whistler 6-band
'88 White RX-7 Convertible
-Permanent tinitus courtesy of Rockford-Fosgate

NBP TL

I dont put the seat heaters on "high" for just that reason. I put them on low and when i jump in the i switch to "hi" for a minute or two. Also 15 minutes is about the most i let it run. I dont always let it run that long, sorry to mislead anyone. Its usually only about 5 minutes or so.

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2001 BLACK/EBONY NON-NAV, FACTORY SPOILER, BURLWOOD SHIFT KNOB, RAZO CARBON FIBER PEDALS, WEAPON R HYPER INTAKE

1999TL

Your catalytic converter gets real hot when idling.

mr tl

dudes, just get a block heater. i idle for 20 seconds, drive for 1 minute slowly and its warm

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THE ONLY TL THAT MATTERS
99 Satin Silver TL
Custom Ractive Air Filter, Comptech Swaybars, PIAA 1500 XT, Alpine V12 pushing Diamond Audio M3 Components, Alpine V12 pushing Boston Accoustics 10' w/box, Alpine CD Changer, Remote Starter, Hands Free Startac Kit, 35% charcoal tint, tweaked grill, silver painted calipers, foot well lights!, OEM wood gauge clusters, rear splash gaurds, block heater.

Lrpba300

I agree with that , but also, when you idle the engine alot, it can build up the "acids" that can deposit into the oil system faster, as if you had driven the 7500 miles!

Shoofin

The car actually warms up faster when you drive it rather than letting it just sit there for 5 minutes.
Ed

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Acura-TL.com - Forum Moderator

'99 TL Satin Silver/Ebony, Non/Nav, Comptech lowered, Comptech Air Filter Element, Inspire Tails, AEM Brake Pads all around, Comptech Axle Back Exhaust, "Guy Smiley" doll on the dash as my Co-driver...

Pics of my TL
Pics of my Miata! Wadya think?

NBP TL

Ed, I agree but i only live about 1 block from the expressway and i dont feel thats enough time to warm up before i have to drive at highway speeds. (65-75 mph)

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2001 BLACK/EBONY NON-NAV, FACTORY SPOILER, BURLWOOD SHIFT KNOB, RAZO CARBON FIBER PEDALS, WEAPON R HYPER INTAKE

SoundSpeed

Isn't the engine block heater supposed to help warm up the engine so your heater works faster?

How good does that block heater work? Does it help to get the heater to spit out warmer air faster. In the mornings if you have to scrape your windows off and you let the car run while you do that the heater is still usually spitting out cold air when you get back in the car. Would the engine block heater solve this problem?

BaLLxNxPaRLaY

Damn.... couple nights ago i had my car idling for like 30 minutes. I locked myself out while car was running. Heh, don't wanna talk about it..... Hope that didn't damage my car.....

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Matt Mui
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2000 Acura 3.2 TL w/ Navigation
Satin Silver/Ebony Interior
Stuff that's sittin in the garage waitin to be put on: 19 inch Lowenhart BS5 wheels, Wings West kit

genghis

A few years back in the dead chill of a New Jersey winter [cue for Canadians to laugh], I rode in a co-worker's car and was amazed at how his vents were spitting out hot air pretty much as soon as he turned on the ignition. It was a late-80's Honda Civic and was the first Honda I'd ridden in. I figured it was a Honda thing until I rode in a few other ones, got an Integra, etc.

Then I found out that he used to work in Yellowknife, which is where he bought the car. Yellowknife is in Canada. Far Canada. You can bet your ass he had a heater block (the kind you can plug into an outlet in a parking lot in fact).

So yes, I think these heater blocks really do work. But unless you live within an hour of the Canadian border I wouldn't think you need one.

Shoofin

By the time i drive a quarter to a half mile, the car starts to warm up..Go to 7-11 first or sumthin, get a paper, get some coffee, that will give ur car ample time to warm up..
Ed



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Acura-TL.com - Forum Moderator

'99 TL Satin Silver/Ebony, Non/Nav, Comptech lowered, Comptech Air Filter Element, Inspire Tails, AEM Brake Pads all around, Comptech Axle Back Exhaust, "Guy Smiley" doll on the dash as my Co-driver...

Pics of my TL
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Guest

quote:
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Originally posted by Gomez:
Letting your car idle for a long time is BAD for the engine.....

This is because the oil pump spins at a speed directly correlated with engine speed, and therefore oil pressure is at its lowest at idle. Thus, less sweet oil gets pushed into those tight nooks and crannies in the engine at idle than when running normally.

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Actually, you're wrong about the oil pressure. I agree that the oil pump speed is directly affected by engine rpm. But engineers design oil pumps to actually EXCEED the recommended minimum oil pressure of any particular engine, even when operating at idle speed (usually 700-850 rpm)

Think about it for a moment-- Any car spends a lot of time at idle rpm. Stopped at a red light, stop sign, fast food drive-thru, or sitting in bumper-to-bumper traffic for instance. Would you think that the engine is not getting adequate oil pressure in these situations? Of course not. Nobody is gonna turn off their engine while idling at a red light or even rev it while at the same red light, just to ensure the car is getting good oil pressure.

As a matter of fact, did you ever stop to think that running at high rpm doesn't push your oil pressure sky high? This is because oil pressure is maintained by a pressure relief valve/regulator. Of course there's a PSI range involved, but on a properly running engine, oil pressure is maintained within this range from idle to redline and everywhere inbetween.

Getting back to the original topic, the main reason that excessive idling is bad for your car is because of the fact that MANY of the sub-systems within the engine DO NOT FUNCTION AT IDLE.

Case in point: EGR system. It functions always, except at idle and wide open throttle.

This is just one example, but I don't want to make this a huge post, so I'll stop there. If you want more examples, let me know. I'm just trying to point out that at idle, a lot of sub-systems are not functioning, which makes the engine run inefficiently and cause excessive hydrocarbons in the oil etc.......

It all adds up to one thing-- It really is not good to idle your car for excessive periods of time.


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'01 CL Type-S Navi
'99 M3

Guest

I'm living in Toronto... where temperatures are typically -10 to -30 celsius (below freezing in any case). Are you saying I shouldn't let my car idle for 3-5 minutes to let the engine warm-up and the revs drop below 1k?

Guest

Of course you can let it idle for a few minutes, but its really not neccesary. Just waiting a few moments for the oil to get up to pressure, then driving EASILY away is fine. Actually this is the recommended cold start procedure these days, unlike back in the old days when they recommended that you let the car idle until full operating temperature is reached.

The theory is that moderately driving with a cold engine actually brings the engine temp up faster than if it were sitting at idle. The faster you can get up to temp, the better.



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'01 CL Type-S Navi
'99 M3

LegendC

Exactly, think of it like this. When you engine is idling it is still doing work. By using this work to move the veichle you help warm up all kinds of parts at the same time and puts some stress on the engine causing it to warm up quicker than normal idling. Its not about Honda engines getting to 100K, thats simple. But if there is something I can do to help it reach 200K im all about it, especially if it is simple like this. BTW I drive a 94 Legend Coupe w/ 108k on it. I love this car so much I want it to last forever, or close to it. Peace.

Pawel

Gomez, if the oil pump is correlated with engine speed, wouln't it also be bad at higer engine revs???!!! Do you actully know WTF you talking about?? If it was as bad to idle as you say, 75% of engines in California would be trashed.
No hard feeling Gomez....
I think that Hunter101 has a good theory on that.

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2000 TL Pearl White w\o nav
1991 Volvo 940 Turbo Traded

"Just Shut Up and Enjoy the Ride"

Gomez

As I understand, in Sweeden (land of coldness), it is actually illegal to let your car sit idling to warm up. It's a waste of precious gas, and a cause of extra pollution. Not to mention unnecessary.

Fire her up, wait a moment, then drive easily 'till warm. (And run 97 octane gas and Mobil1 oil that you change every day if you wanna be a money-wasting dork...)

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'01 White Diamond Pearl 3.2TL
-Wing, tint, burlwood shift, Whistler 6-band
'88 White RX-7 Convertible
-Permanent tinitus courtesy of Rockford-Fosgate

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">[This message has been edited by Gomez on December 15, 2000 @ ]</font>

Gomez

Yea, they'd all be trashed here in Dallas, too. I'm used to spending an hour and going a quarter mile during rush hour.

1) No, it's not bad at high revs, due to the fact that oil pressure is limited.

2) Yes, I do know what I'm talking about. So does Acura. So do Consumer Reports and the mechanics books I've read. If you don't believe that oil pressure rises and falls with engine speed, drive a car with an oil gauge. My old BMW had one, and so did my RX-7. I think even my Starion had one, too. They're much more useful than these silly idiot lights, that only light up when there's a problem.

3) "...as bad to idle as you say..." - Well, I didn't say how bad it was to idle, did I? Will it instantly sieze your engine? No, just accelerate wear and tear. How much? Man, I don't know, but probably less than 1/2, as Acura only wants you to halve the oil change interval with "severe" driving conditions.

I think people have over-reacted to my post. Idling will not 'ruin' your car, but in fact does wear it out more quickly. So if you're trying to baby your baby, don't let it sit for a long time warming up, because you'll do more harm than good.

And for those of you guys who change oil every other day, there's a Consumer Reports test you should read. (No difference B/T 5000 mile changes and 3000 mile in a fleet of NYC taxis, and no difference B/T brands of oil.)

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'01 White Diamond Pearl 3.2TL
-Wing, tint, burlwood shift, Whistler 6-band
'88 White RX-7 Convertible
-Permanent tinitus courtesy of Rockford-Fosgate

LegendC

Well lets think about the oil pump, what happens at very high rpms? Oil starvation and frothing of the oil, and at low rpms, oil pressure drops. Logically running your engine at high rpms for extended periods would start to put wear and stress on the engine, wouldn't the same be true at idle? We have already had this discussion at the Legend board and came to the same 30 sec to 2 min warm-up guidelines. Most of us try not to take the engine over 3K until it is at operating temp.

grishulia

That sounds great... but it only worth doing if you plan to keep your car for a long... very long time... the engine would work fine, no matter what you do, for at least a good 100K miles...

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Just my 2 cents...

Road Rage

Anyone want an engineer's opinion?

1) It is not an oil pressure issue - there is plenty of pressure at startup, more than when the ngine is warmed up. Oil gets everywhere it needs to. That is more an issue of the proper viscosity and proper oil changes to avoid oxidation thicken lube.

2) The real issue is speed of warm up. Getting all the disimilar metals to the temperature that the design is optimized for to reduce wear, deliver maximum power, and lowest emissions. That is best done by driving the car. Idling also tends to increase the amount of unburned fuel blowby, which will more quickly pollute the oil and catalytic converter.

3) And yes, a block heater will give you heat faster.

4) One other thing - running the A/C will help your engine reach normal operating temp faster. The air is pre-heated through the condenser as it goes through the radiator.

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Rage On!
2000 TL w. Comptech header/exhaust
SSR Integral A2's
17x7 45mm offset
Pirelli P7000 (Summer) 215-50/17
Fender lips rolled