drbeatty

I have read numerous posts on this board mentioning the poor construction of American made automobiles. Recently, the production of Japanese namesakes in the states has also caused an apparent decrease in quality. Are Americans lazy, or not as detail-driven as their japanese counterparts? Are the car parts used in American constuction a lesser quality than those in Japan, and are they that way for the same reasons? I would like to hear your opinions about this...

QUIETSTORMMVN_IN

I don't think american workers are lazy, i have been to the Ford factory in Norfolk, VA. I say the attention to detail and the absence of quality materials, are the blame! There is so much emphasis on quantity, that quality is over looked. The workers can not slow the flow of the assembly lines, and the major car corporations do not buy or use high quality parts, plastic etc. Thus leaving us with mediocre or inferior parts which they sale to us for a huge profit.

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2000 Fire Pepper Red/ebony TL, non-navi. factory spoiler, std chrome wheels, 35% tint, comptech exhaust, wood trim kit, factory body kit...
Quiets ride

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Polyman

Someone had another good point on a similar thread. The fact that the US Auto Industry has so many unions to back them up may allow for conditions not conducive for attention to detail, but it is just a theory.

BarryH

GM just recalled all of the new TrailBlazer, Envoy, and Bravada SUV's they've built so far (30K) and shut down the assembly line for two weeks due to a suspension defect. The new Ford Explorer's launch was delayed for months due to quality issues. Sort of sad actually. I don't know whether it's bad design or poor execution but the U.S. car companies had better get their acts together soon. Toyota and Honda posted record march sales gains while GM, Ford, and Chrysler posted double digit losses. I wonder why?

TLwiz

I believe that Americans are lazy and less-detail oriented than many other nationalities. It is not to say that ALL Americans are lazy, but rather that other countries are more productive and driven towards perfection. As a whole, our society is more into the "ME" factor. More money for me, more time for me, more me. While other societies (Japan and Germany come to mind) strive to make perfection and quality in automobiles.

Again, I am not saying that America is inferior, just DIFFERENT. Kids today are more interested in MTV, music, clothes, etc than in learning the real important stuff. Just look at how we teach and kids learn here, compared to the way things are done in Japan for instance. Now, are they better off? No, just different.

FTM-1

This is hard to pin point the American Car Companies are still playing catch up.This started in the mid 70s when we had the gas problems.Ronald Reagan told Americans not to by Japanese Cars back in the early 80s. I got one a 80 Honda Prelude that I had for 15yrs.I think its some of the people at the top of the Car Companies fault. The head designers probaly had this idea of build anything & they will buy it. They also thought that quality was not important.All of them still have this going on just look at Pontiac. The Grand Prix GTP is an example the car looks kinda good.The inside is full of plastic switches that are not placed correct. The word is ergonomics most American cars don't have good ergonomics. Its just something about most American cars of recent years that turn me off. I am old enough to remember cars of the 50s. I also think its quanity over quality.

Brewboy

Most of the decisions to use inferior materials, looser specifications, and lower quality controls are based upon achieving the lowest price per unit. The big three only want to increase their revenues so they look good to Wall street and shareholders. Most upper management salaries and bonuses are tied to stock prices. Higher the stock price, the more they make. Do they care whether or not their product lasts 10 years or 20 years? No, they still get paid in the year somebody buys their vehicle. Most of these managers are close to retirement so they can care less.
Employee unions hold companies hostage for more money/benefits every contract. So the company either moves to another country for cheaper labor or makes their product cheaper for a greater profit margin to offset the rising labor costs. It all comes down to money. The bean counters are running these companies in the ground only to show a profit to wall street and to get a bigger bonus. The same thing is happening at Boeing were I work.

Guest

American factory: Union worker hurrying through his work so he can take his 3rd break in an hour, pick up his check, drink a cup of coffee, and shoot the shit.

Japanese factory: Japanese man paying incredible attention to his work, because do to the economic status of Japan, if his work isnt good......hes fired on the spot and his family starves. so he does his best on every car........because his family depends on it.

just my 2 cents

drbeatty

Why does the quality of American built "Japanese" cars (honda, toyota, etc.) seem to be going down? Is Japan willing to suffer the same fate in reputation as the big three?

liutang

Organizational slack.

Guest

To say that American workers as a whole are lazy, careless, and take too many breaks is just IGNORANT, and COMPLETELY UNACCEPTABLE.
IMO, it has nothing to do with either workers, or management. Consumers are the ones who dictate the overall business strategy that managent follows. As long as there is demand for American cars, domestic manufacturers feel "if it isn't broke don't fix it". And it is a strategy that obviously works, since American car companies are the largest in the world.
For me personally, reliability is absolutely important. That's one of the main reasons I chose the TL over some of the American counterparts.

Shoofin

The training process is much different in those countries. They take a LOT of pride in their work, and enjoy it very much. Americans? I have one word to explain Americans: Union
Ed

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Acura-TL.com - Forum Moderator

'99 TL Satin Silver/Ebony, Non/Nav, Comptech lowered, Comptech Air Filter Element, Inspire Tails, AEM Brake Pads all around, Comptech Axle Back Exhaust, "Guy Smiley" doll on the dash as my Co-driver...
= ------------------>
Pics of my TL
Pics of my Miata! Wadya think?

bdimc2001

Americans workers gets: Unions, benefits, 401K, dental, medical, vision, breaks, lunch, blah, blah, blah.

Japanese workers gets: Work.

And you know what, Americans wants more benefits and more pay, not that I'm saying they get paid alot or anything but that forces Corporate to buy cheaper parts to pay for the labor.

Parts for the American Assembled TL comes from Japan for those that didn't know.

UCITL

since the TL or some other cars like the accord are built here, i think there might be a decrease in quality. if there are two TLs: one assembled in US and one made 100% japan, i'm sure 99.9% will choose the japanese made one.

but think about it this way..... if the TLs are built in japan, the cost will run significantly higher, maybe approaching 36k ~ 40k, right infront of the lexus gs. that'll KILL the strong price advantage. still, a nice car though.

Nate

How do you call a car manufactured in Ohio and engineered in Cal a JP car?

mentl

Guys, to understand why Japanese products have excelled and American products have not, look into Dr. Deming and his relationship with Japan. When he was touting his philosphies of continuous improvement and such, Japanese companies embraced him while American companies scoffed at him. He was an American, by the way.

I'm over simplifying, but you owe it to yourself to learn about Deming.

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2000 Navi TL White Diamond Pearl
(they're magically delicious)

VTEC

See the M-B M-Class .............

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2000 3.2TL Firepepper red w/o nav
stock spoiler
Bosch 4+ platinum spark plug
25% Tint/Mud guards/
acura-tl.com sticker at front windshield
Comptech springs

Black2001TL

Many may not agree, but American quality of all products has actually gotten better over the past 15 years.

Late 70's and 80's automobile quality was horrendous. Although not where we want to be, American built cars are far superior compared to where they used to be. It will take the big three many more years to come close to Japanese built quality. It takes years to retrofit a plant, train employees, negotiate with unions etc. American steel companies are far superior to any other. But the American market continually gets crap steel dumped on the market. American companies then have to cut corners to compete.

The previous post concerning the late Dr. Deming and his theories is correct. Dr. Deming had spent the majority of his time helping the japanese re-build there industry. Many of his theories and practices did not take hold until the 80's. Now car companies have moved onto QS9000 and six sigma practices.

The unions and the car companies got fat and sassy during the 60's. This led to a quality disaster that they are still paying for today.

Sorry just my two cents worth after being a Director of Quality for 20 years.

Guest

Nate makes a good point. The TL really is an American car. And, it is also considered as one of the most reliable automobiles in its class. Honda ranks reliability higher in priority than American companies and has established a process to continually improve it. Regardless of whether the cars are made here or in Japan the cars are equally well built.
For those of you saying that American workers are getting paid too much and are asking for more and more, I say, great. If they can make even more it'd be better. Nobody wants to stagnate at the same pay level for all their carreers. Well, almost all. Some of you seem to like that sort of thing. Perhaps, they should work for free so you can drive a really cheap car. Maybe we should also roll time back to the early industrial revolution ages where the fat cats took advantage of the little guy.

grishulia

LOL... this is funny but sad... quality still sucks... all because of Unions, as was said numerous times!
If only these people were affraid to lose thair job if they didn't perform I bet they would do a better job!

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Out on parole and on best behavior...

Shoofin

Let me tell you somethin... I am american born, and thats about it.. My father is old school.. Old school is best. No unions in my company, no NOTHING. My dad recently acquired a 60 year old company who had many worthless workers, and most of them got the boot. The warehouse and factory personnel are all union. Tell me, Do you really need one person to carry a box and another person to follow to make sure he/she doesn't drop the box? Do you need two people to roll a garment hanger across the warehouse? Why is the box taper only allowed to tape a box, and nothing else? That means that if there aren't any boxes to tape, he just sit's there with his thumb up his a$$ waiting for work.. Unions suck a$$. Union workers don't take pride in their work, if you need something done quickly, you can NOT rely on a union worker to speed up. Best of all, these people don't realize how bad that the union is screwing the workers w/o Vaseline!
Ed

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Acura-TL.com - Forum Moderator

'99 TL Satin Silver/Ebony, Non/Nav, Comptech lowered, Comptech Air Filter Element, Inspire Tails, AEM Brake Pads all around, Comptech Axle Back Exhaust, "Guy Smiley" doll on the dash as my Co-driver...
= ------------------&gt;
Pics of my TL
Pics of my Miata! Wadya think?

mgs333

one word: unions.

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Matt
2000 Civic Si
So Cal

BNut

Aye! I remember him! He's the guy the US sent over after the war to help them rebuild their country correct? Pretty funny Americans wouldn't take his advice and look what he did for the Japanese.

black2000

Lots of perceptive comments here. I agree:

• Unions are more interested in the treatment of workers than the quality of the product.
• Owners are more interested in ROI than the quality of the product or innovation of design.
• Japanese embraced TQM/Deming (great story about a Japanese autoparts company trying to do business with Detroit - They're told that they must meet a rejection standard of 2 per 1,000. They are mystified; Why would their partner want 2 bad parts?)

Even the best US cars (Corvette, Lincoln LS) have serious design and quality flaws compared to their competition.

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David

Black-on-Black non-NAV 2000


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LegendC

Consider this:
Japan has to import all of it raw materials for industry. They have to do this at a high price. Japanese companies keep their quality control very high and automate as much as possible so they don't waste their precious and expensice raw resources. Thier parts are built to higher tolerences so they will last longer and maximize the usage of materials. Thats the Japanese attitude "Do more with less".

Americans are the exact opposite. We have plentiful resources but are more interested in the volume of production. So what if we have to throw out some bad parts or if veichles only last 5-7 years....we will just build a new one to replace it.

It's funny that steel was broght up. Japanese steel has been superior to American until the last decade. When the US rebuilt Japan after WWII they put more emphisis on technology. America started to realize this and is just recently catching up.

To summerize its not about better engineers or labor (per se) its about the attitude these two sperate societies hold.


Sorry for the long post.

Black2001TL

Just about every steel plant in the US is half owned by the Japanese. US/Kobe Armco/Kawasaki etc..

One is incorrect if they believe foreign steel is superior to US, including Japan. Japanese have become more efficient but quality is still not superior.

Much of todays coil steel produced in the USA is exported to Japan for automotive use.

drbeatty

Do you think that the Japanese motor companies are risking their reputation by allowing their cars to be built in America? Further, is there any risk of American quality control deficits carrying over into the Japanese doctrine of work?

This is a very informative thread, BTW

yu888

While I am no fan of unions, I must say that while a fear of losing one's job is a motivator, I think we need to look at the entire culture of Japanese and American management. Japanese management thrives on better and better quality. When they get their error rating down to 1 part per million, they look for 1 part per Billion. When an American company hits a low error rating of 1 part per million, everyone goes out and has a beer to celebrate. They dont make those continuing strides to acheive mroe quality.
Instead of instilling fear in the employees, I think the managemnet needs to instill pride in the work that they do and the products that they produce. they need to increase BOTH quality and quantity, but with the input of the employees as well as managemnet.
The Japanese systems put managemnt and unions on the same side, striving fr the same goals: increase quality and production. If the US union leaders would get off their fat asses and take care of the actual union members, maybe we'd see incentives for both companies and unions to strive for better quality which will grow the businesses, the paychecks, and the economy. But for now, Union dues probably go to some fat Union boss and his mistress on the side.
Just my 2c

genghis

Union-bashing is easy and fashionable, but like anything that's easy and fashionable it's a gross simplification.

Homer Simpson put it best: "Lisa, if you don't like your job, you don't go on strike! You go in every single day, and do it REALLY half-assed. That's the American Way!"

Guest

It is indeed easy to bash unions in today's environmnet. Just think about where we would be without them! The problem is that unions have not kept up with the times. Strikes are more political than because of actual problems, and if you want to know where all those union dues go, check the DNC (democratic national comittee).

However, if you want to know why Honda's have better quality than Fords (fix or repair daily) or other American car's it is an extremely complicated formula.

Ask a Honda supplier what a pain in the ass it is to work with Honda. But if the supplier has a problem, Honda doesn't drop them, instead they help them to meet Honda's needs. Japanese companies look at their suppliers as partners. When one company suffers, all the companies in that supply group suffer. American companies look at suppliers as expendable. Look at all the American car companies that are forcing their suppliers to reduce cost each year. Cost control is important, but you can't just blindly demand 10% cost reductions. You have to look at the process and materials and determine reasonable places to cut costs.

There was an article in the Columbus Dispatch Sunday edition last week or the week before (it's available on-line) that talked about Honda's relationship with suppliers.

The next reason Honda has good build quality is because they ask the factory to be involved in the design process. The factory provides valuable input regarding assembly processes, plant layout, dealing with suppliers. Almost every concern they have is brought to the design table. In addition, the plant workers are encouraged to provide ideas for improvements of any and every kind.

There is also a different management philosophy. Sure personell management leaves a lot to be desired at Japanese companies, but when it comes to project management, it is difficult to beat the thorough process used by most Japanese companies (TQM, etc.). Many U.S. companies have started to implement TQM, and it was a VERY hot topic in the late 80's and early 90's. Why are the Accord and Camry always amoung the most stolen cars? It's not because theives want to dirve Japanese cars. It is because there are a lot of parts that are used year after year, so you can steal any year Civic and find parts that you can fence through a repair shop to any other Civic owner. This is because they keep the good parts from year to year and replace the ones that can be improved. Again, this comes from a man named Demming: incremental improvement. If it ain't broke don't fix it, just make it better next year!

Sorry for the book, but as you can see, very little of this has to do with unions. Although unions would make it very difficult for design engineers to go work on the assembly line for a week to understand the complexities of building a car every 47 seconds! And how their part design affects the guy that has to put one on a car every 47 seconds. The UAW would also probably make it more difficult to get factory representation at the design table.

Enjoy your Acura's!

drbeatty

That was a very informative response, and well reasoned at that. Thank you all for your contribution.

AnthonyG

Another item to consider is price. That is, it is much more cheaper for Honda to export cars built here (in the USA) to their markets, than for them to export them from Japan. BMW and Mercedes realized this as well, as built new plants in South Carolina and Alabama. This is also a result of the exchange rate (Yen to U.S. dollar) and Euro to the U.S. dollar. It all boils down to economics!

Polyman

Wow Pedestrian, that was very informative indeed. This has been quite a learning thread. Welcome to TLU!!

Guest

What?!? You do realize that the U.S. has an ENORMOUS trade deficit for a reason, don't you? Mr. Honda built a plant in the U.S. 20 some years ago because he believed that it is important for the culture of an area to have an influence on the product you sell there. For the same reason, he started an R&D facility in the U.S. a few years later. Now the TL, CL, Accord 2D, Civic 2D and MD-X have all been designed here in the U.S.

Cars that Honda builds in North America (including Toronto) are typically all sold in North America. Except for the Odyssey (Lagreat in Japan) which is only made in Canada, and TL which is only made in Ohio (sold in Japan as the Inspire or Sabre) I don't know of any Honda car that is extensively exported from North America. Like I said, Honda's philosophy is to build them where they sell them.




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Pimpin_TL

i wish my TL was made in Japan. My prelude was 97% constructed in Japan and I didnt have any problems except they had a recall on the emissions sensor. My TL squeaks too much. the cd tray pops out unexpectedly. my moonroof rattles. thats it but still thats a lot. don't get me wrong i love TL, but my moms mercedes or lexus never did these things. Nor did my prelude. just a thought.

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'99 3.2 TL

Black/Black
Burlwood Shift Knob
Bodykit
Spoiler
Tint

hunter001

My in-laws' Mercedes 2000 S500 has a couple of rattles and a squeak from the dash. My friend's 2001 S430 also exhibits the squeak from the dash....my TL however is squeak and rattle free till date (knocking on burl-wood shift knob).


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2000 Naples Gold 3.2TL/Navi - Factory Stock but with up-graded tires

jmboone

Lots of people mention the AFL-CIO as an inhibiting factor of the quality of Amercian cars... I think that you're overlooking the real effect they have. Basically, they have prevented the adoption of hardcore, pervasive robotics technology in their assembly plants. After all, robots don't go on strike, and don't vote.

Contrast this with the Japanese obsession with robots, and I think we have a winner. Robots don't make mistakes, have just insane repeatability rates, etc etc. Didn't Nissan have plans for a megafactory that was totally robotic, with something on the order of 5 humans to run the computers?

Pimpin_TL

hehe. well you're lucky then! a lot of other cool people (TL owners) have had my problem too.

you're fortunate. btw, my dad used to own a mb too and we never had any probs with it. (oh yeah the cupholders sucked dick, but other than that)

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'99 3.2 TL

Black/Black
Burlwood Shift Knob
Bodykit
Spoiler
Tint

Closer

If 1 robot can replace 100 laborers and the result means more profit for the company... GOOD. They are now able to to hire more engineers, QA, designers, increase wages, increase job security, lower prices, research and invest in alternative fuels and give more to their share holders (including middle income investors).

Look at computers today. While yes, people lost jobs because computers replaced them, many jobs opened up working AT computer related companies. People fear change... but in the end they adapt very well.

Sherlock

I too have seen a change in quality from my first 1989 CRX (built like a solid brick) to my 1998 Accord (interior panels come loose, steering neck popped loose, window sticking on way up, just had to replace 1st and 2nd gear syncro's and first gear at 45k miles), to my 2000 TL. I would say the TL is better in the Accord, but I would expect that for the product line. But all in all, I think American production hurts our quality.
My roomie works for NorthWest airlines, their union workers SUCK. They have had the hugest losses and problems this year due to shoddy work, and on strike they go again, we want more.. ME ME ME. They have signs up in the shop "don't forget to go on break"..

I would imagine the RL is probably pretty sweet as in import.

But then again.. had the TL not come down to $29K.. I probably would not have gotten one.

So it's a mix, I like the price, but miss the original Quality.

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1998 BlackCurrant Accord EX4 Coupe (Watson)
35% Tint, full Honda front Mask,
Polk Dx all around, Alpine 353, 2xMTX 10"
2000 Laguna/Fern TL (Sherlock)
20% Tint / 20% Platinum, otherwise stock.