InspireS

Hi all,

I installed a set of Performance Grounding Wires over the weekend, and they proven noticable difference in low-end and mid-range torque, something that we all lack. The set cost me $100USD, and definately there was noticable difference. Even in VTEC range you can feel it come on stronger and quicker.

I believe it's a great performance upgrade for the considerable little amount of money spent.

I got the set at A&J Racing, they installed it for me but you they also provide the installation diagram.

The wires are partially hidden but the parts that are visible make the engine bay look nice.

If you are interested in the set let me know.

InspireS

ALFAV6

i wanna see.... .. tell me more...:p

rockinTLS

Call me a skeptic. Besides for potentially improved aesthetics, how would ground straps be an improvement?

I'm not trying to take anything away from your new parts but I'd like to see some real stats.

TommiGSR

iTrader: (1)

hehe, people amaze me at what they buy. you could always say i bought this sticker on my car and i can feel a gain of power rushing through my head as i push the pedal to the metal LOL it's just all in the mind buddy....i don't think grounding wires will do much to the performance of the car...maybe for a sound system, but i never heard of any gains such wires you speak of

Road Rage

Jeez, I see this sort of stuff in the Audiophile newsgroups, not here! (Solid silver cables, little stones to put on top of your CD player, $500 power cables, etc).

As a degreed EE, my professional opinion is this:

A ground merely allows the current to flow unabated. It is simply a resistance/continuity issue. With continuity you either have it or you don't. With resistance, if the stock wires were so resistant that adding special cables made a difference, I submit that the engine would not turn over, and if it did, would not run long.

Any improvements as noted by the poster would I suggest be the result of Placebo Effect.

InspireS

Hi all,

I'm just sharing my experience with you guys, I mean I noticed the difference, but the assumption or facts behind the grounding enhancement is as follows:

The heaviest current used by the electrical system goes to the starter motor. In fact, the current that goes to the starter is so high that it pulls the battery voltage down to about nine volts when cranking the engine. It is imperative that a heavy grounding strap connect the starter motor (engine) to the battery (-) terminal. The best way to make certain that the starter is getting maximum volatage is to connect the grounding strap directly from the battery post to the starter motor mounting bolt. Alternatively, a grounding strap can connect the battery post to the frame and then the frame can be connected to the starter via another heavy strap. Make certain that the connections to the frame are clean and well-secured. Most hard starting and slow cranking problems are due to improper grounding which reduces the voltage available at the starter. Thus, grounding not only the starter, also grounding the VTEC solenoid will provide enhanced spark boost.

Why do you think some of the limitations in competition racing do not allow engine grounding enhancements? Because they provide an advantage.

That's my 2 cents...I'm happy with the $100USD spent.

InspireS

TommiGSR

iTrader: (1)

not braggin on you bro, but there are better mods for the money spent..., as for the performance wires, i doubt we will need it for our stock internals...unless you had changed your internal engine solenoids and such, different wiring is not necessary. The cars in competition racing are very heavily modified that they take a lot of current, that's when they need better wiring...unless you've really heavily modified...not intake/cams/exhaust, but MAJOR work on your engine, then yea the wires would be a good thing.

Road Rage

Glad you like it, hope it looks good, but you are re-stating what I posted, and mis-interpreting it. Everything you say is correct about the effects of a bad ground, but you have not established there is a bad ground! What you are saying is comparable to saying that having a gas main sized exhaust pipe on a Yugo will provide more power. As long as the stock pipe flows adequate air, putting a pipe the size of the Holland Tunnel will not increase performance one scintilla, one iota. Same thing with the TL's ground equipment. And the current involved in the VTEC solenoid is a tiny fraction of the starter, for Pete's sake. Finally, Honda's have notoriously good gropunds, in some cases, multiple grounds.

IMHO, the product you put on answers a question not needing an answer, and fattens someone's wallet while thinning yours.

I would be surprised if Tim adds this one to the site, but perhaps it could go with the zMax, Tornado, etc in the Snake Oil section.

Competition car grounding primarily is an issue around MECHANICAL integrity, not electrical. They want the electrical system to survive the stresses of racing, which far exceed a cruise to the Performance Wire shop.

bricot

RR,
You tellin me I need to take my Audio Magic Clairvoyant interconnects back????
j/k

Whats your take on bi-wiring?

Road Rage

Bricot:
Good question. The Professor will respond:

First, let us agree in terms. By bi-wiring, you mean running two sets of wires from the speaker outputs of an amp to a speaker?

Well, it is hogwash. Audiophile morons will tello you that the delicate treble is protected from the nasty bass, but electromagnetics does not work that simplistically.

Have you ever wondered how a complex musical waveform, consisting of say, a full second of Metallica, can be reproduced by one speaker? Same principle as the cables: the controlling law ois called the Law of Superposition. In this context, it states that any two currents applied to a linear network will result in the same voltages as either current applied separately.

Here, the linear network is the crossover and the speaker.

Bi-wiring identifies the iredeemeable idiots in our midst, persuaded by corrupt reviewers and greedy mfrs.

Only in extremely rare cases, where the crossover is very badly designed, could there be even the slightest benefit. In most crossovers with two sets of speaker connectors, the connections are summed anyway. Save your money!

Here is a freebee based on 35 years of experience, both profesionally and as a hobby: drum roll.....IT IS THE SPEAKERS, STUPID! The next time you think you need a $5000 amp to replace your $4000 amp, remember those words. Buy the absolute best speakers you can afford, stretch if you must, but they will aloways deloiver the best value.

in order of consequence:
1) Speaker
2) Room
3) Recording

Check out this product: P1-A at perpetualtechnologies.com

Austin519

RR:
Another EE/Comp. Engr. over here...totally agree with you...performance grounding wires won't help you unless you're drawing higher current that originally intended to go through the standard grounding wires (like I am). It's not like Acura would purposely place faulty parts in our cars that need to be replaced...(transmission...what? no never). But anyway, unless you're running a more powerful ignition or some fancy audio and electronics gadgetry there's no need for it. It's like the spark plug issue...yes if your current plugs are dirty or don't work properly then you will feel a gain, as the new install returns the status quo to where it should be...but otherwise you won't feel a difference. InspireS, just think of it as an aesthetic upgrade...because that's all it is.

Austin519

daverman

Boy, it's an Engineering party in here! I too am a EE/CE, and I totally agree with RR: unless the original grounding is inadequate, any gains in performance is all in your head.

And improving the ground for the VTEC solenoid--what does that do, exactly? The solenoid itself is not responsible for any power increase. In fact, the solenoid basically acts as an on-off device; making it "more on" (pun pun) when it's already on doesn't buy you anything.

Does the wire store have a return policy? I suggest you take advantage of it.

bricot

Thanks for the input RR,
I did just that when I bought my speakers. I was able to get into a stereo shop on a Sunday when they were closed and spent several Sundays doing double blind tests. I then picked those that sounded the best to me. (funny how fast Bose where thrown out...) I noticed my M&K's could be bi-wired, didn't make a lot of sense to me but I thought I would check it out.

Have you got to play with the P1-A? Sounds interesting.

Do you have any idea what the reality of HD-DVD is?

Austin519

bricot:
This is right up my alley my friend...comp. engr. who's done a LOT of stuff on optical data storage. Hmmm HD DVD...fancy name for blue laser DVD players...which is what they should have come out with in the first place. Well considering LG/Zenith, who usually is a relatively inexpensive provider of technology, has had the bottom stolen out from under them on this by bigger, richer firms (can we say Sony, Pioneer, Philips) have already taken it up. That and George Lucas is releasing Star Wars on it will probably throw it out there in good force. In terms of history, they do/did have blue laser CDRW drives quite some time ago...years now actually...which offer the same gains in terms of storage (4x more) but never took off. They were also backwards compatible. But because CDs are so cheap, and CDRW drives became so cheap, no one cared. It's sort of like CDRW media...you can rewrite it yeah, and it's about $5 a disk. But I can get CDR disks for about $0.45 apiece...they hold more, so it's a hassle to use CDRWs. I think that with LucasArts behind them, HD DVD will get a boost, and probably will be out there in mass quantity...but no more than HD TVs versus regular TVs. About 65% of people who have TV's don't even have TVs with S Video...90% don't have component inputs...so for them the added cost of the HD DVD player is pointless when it doesn't look any better. You'll probably have the same breakdown of normal DVD versus HD DVD. This of course means that guys who like to rip movies will have to go buy a HD DVD ROM...pain in the arse...but well...

Austin519

Austin519

Oh and check this out:

http://www.digitallyobsessed.com/showarticle.php3?ID=40

Austin519

InspireS

It's funny how I first posted this topic on the Grounding wires, and probably was the first one to install them. Then I got flammed by engineers etc. of the board. Now the site is selling them..Ironic.

Inspires

juniorbean

iTrader: (5)

I don't quite see the irony the way you put it since #1, those people aren't even on the board anymore, and #2 the opinions of members on the board have nothing to do with the ownership and running of this site.

That said... did you ever get a dyno to see if any gains were realized?? I know that a lot of the Z owners are buying grounding kits and are also noticing some smoother performance.

Edward'TLS

Hey, business is business. Who cares what others said, as long as there is always someone who believe it will work and spend the money buying it.

Better grounding wires may get rid of noise and interference in the radio or amp system, but in no ways will it increase the engine output. Rather than replacing the grounding wires, higher voltage transformers and better +12V wirings for the ignition plugs will do a better job at boosting horsepowers and torque instead.

r10apple

Wow...RR, why can't all of your posts be this funny???
It's even more ironic to follow up on what JB is saying in that the Z guys (and the CL guys) are all saying the Hyperground stuff is working...
I would agree with the degreed here, but these performance guys keep saying it...Some of those guys don't truly pi$$ money away, don't have an interest in selling the stuff and don't have/do every mod available...What gives? I doubt any of us seriously would bother to spend $100 on a dyno after a $100 mod...If someone had ready and cheap access to a dyno, then go maybe we'd all know...

zigzagzig

forget all the technicalities, import tuner did several dynos on different vehicles; all showing good gains for a set of "wires". some were as low as .2 hp gain, some were 10. if it works, it works. as for the placebo effect, the dyno clearly compromises the integrity of that idea. dynos are dynos.

MoDzHuNgRy

Where are you ordering your Mugen stuff from? I am considering about ordering the Mugens just to be the one of the only few to have them also.

InspireS

juniorbean,

Actually, I have not dynoed the performance gains, but as you notice in my starting post I did say I noticed difference. Good to hear that Z owners and North American magazines are realizing gains and improvements with these kits.

I still hold my previous comment that they do make a difference, it's just funny that how when you're the first to try something and try to share it as a good experience you get people flaming you.

Maybe it was more of a sigh of relief that people are now believing.

InspireS

InspireS

A&J Racing (www.aj-racing.com) ask for Ben.

InspireS

car_lost

the tl is already grounded pretty well... IF there are any gains... they will be very little... im not flaming you... just putting my 2 cents in.

Bxscig

I had asked about this earlier and the ads/company claim to have power gains. I just thought it was looks but now i see them advertised on the main page.

car_lost

for some cars, it will make pretty good gains... maybe up to about 10hp. but, like i said, the tl is already pretty well grounded.

Road Rage

I am an EE, and unless you have a completely hosed up stock grounding system, there can be, and is no, benefit to performance wires of this sort. If the ground were so messed up, the VTEC would not work at all. It is not an incremental system - it either activates or it doesn't. This is pure snake oil, meant to appeal to those untutored in the physical principles.

I also am an audio reviewer, and a member of the Audio Eng Society. I have seen claims for "audiophile" speaker cables (some $12k for 10 feet pairs!) that are absolutely fraudulent in their claims. Same thing here.

Save your money - any SOTP gains are attributable to placebo effect.