seotaiji

OK.. what I hear is that... S4 is fast.. but TLS is still fast enough to catch up the S4.. and TLS is cheaper.. and junk S4 is $10,000 espensive.. right..
If TLS is $10,000 expensive than S4.. S4 will be really slow.. interms of technology and Engineering... which means TLS wins anyway..
Next time, TLS will have NSX tuned up ENGINE..
So S4 owners shall be quiet.. if you know what i mean...
S4.. i don't know who buys the crap.. if you buy that machine.. I rather drive BMW........with PRIDE.. or ACURA used NSX..... still who gets attention on the road.. NSX will be the winner...S4, shall be quiet... and don't tell me that you are .2 second faster than TL-S.. TLS is still fast enough to catch...S4 still gets high maintenance cost.. I heard mechanical breaks down occurs after high speed driving on AUDI.. Sorry AUDI.. too fast means fast break down!!!!!!! puhaha

ming 2.7T_RENAMED

How do you post a pic, I tried the img thingy but got the symbol of death pic.

4DR Assassin

Muhahaha.....and I thought some S4 owners say crazy ****.

Pshhhhh

Open up a copy of R&T and look in the back. S4 traps at 98.5 and the Type-S traps at 95.2. Then look at the difference in 0-100. Then go cry under your bed.

vandy786

Hey Pshhhhh,
I noticed you are the only person who has made this a personal thing. Every post but yours has been informative and productive. In fact, even posts by other Audi owners have been fun to read. It's always great to see things from the other side but I believe you are taking it too far. It's a disgrace that people like you even own Audi's and think they are the best sh!t. Each car has its strengths and weaknesses. Maybe next time when you get burned by my M5 you'll shut up and stop being so proud of your machine. You do believe that an M5 will eat you alive, don't you? If you don't believe me, just "open up a copy of R&T and look in the back. Then go cry under your bed"

PeterUbers

iTrader: (1)

I agree w/ the above post!

Props to 4Dr Assassin -- he has a nice S4 and isn't arrogant about it's abilities, -- he's factual, down-to-earth, and pleasant in the way he posts. Psssshhh... I ask again .. do you own an S4?
(Forgive me if you've already answered this question).

Most people will agree that people that pop up all of a sudden on ANY automotive forum will have less than five or six posts and will be talking all sorts of crap about whichever car they are more interested in. Let 'em cry and rage on, that's their perogative.

What I LOVE about the auto industry that wasn't true about it ten years ago is that the horsepower is going up in nearly every segment from the popular manufacturers!! We're apparently able to produce and optimize transmissions to procure decent fuel economy, w/ plenty of low and top-end power. Thank god for variable valve timing in EVERY make!! it's what's producing great responsiveness that just COULDN'T be bought w/o spending a lot of money ten years ago.

The S4 is an awesome car, and I think there is nothing more fun than a manual transmission that you need to learn to drive -- it adds more to the driving element -- and automative.. blah .. as stated a million times before, everyone's MOTHER can get in an automatic, be quickly taught how to brake-torque, and make it produce numbers similar to the popular carmags. However, most people need to learn how to drive manual trannies in specific cars to learn how to drive each car to its limit. That's fun!

Kudos to the level-headed posters, I've learned a lot and look forward to your future posts!!

Pete

Pshhhhh

Funny you mention an M5 because it will eat a stock S4 as bad as a stock S4 will eat a Type-S. You don't see me posting on audiworld how I beat a 12 yr old girl in her M5 and now I think I can hang with M5s (see ZodiakTL). Then I could post a bunch of non-factual info I made up in my head (again see ZodiakTL). BTW, a few simple mods on the S4 and it will keep up with the M5.

oblio98

Peter,

Being fair and objective does not work with these board invaders, best to ignore them.

Remember the PeteUbers guy?

:end

Mr Hyde

Hey Pssshhhhhhh You seem to have an awful big chip on your shoulder. Why do you even bother coming to acura-tl.com. Do you feel the need to prove something, do you have any feelings of inadequacy you need to deal with, or do you feel the need to impress someone? You arent impressing me one bit. If I wanted an S4 Id be driving one, but it just wasnt the right car for me. The TL-S was the perfect choice for me, and Im very happy with it, but you wont find me going to other sites trying to start crapp with drivers of other cars. As I said I am happy with my car, dont feel the need to prove anything. All the posts by the other Audi owners have all been very contibutive and reflect their enthusiasm for cars in general. Yours are just trash.

Bottom line, lighten up or your opinions and views can be changed by me by one click of my mouse if you are allowed to stay.

vandy786

Pshhhhh,
Mods on an S4? What good are mods on an S4 if you don't even have an S4? I am only 19, and I will tell you straight. I do not take out loans, I paid cash for my TL-S, and I go to college. I simply cannot afford an S4 unlike many of the people here. If someone pays for an S4, it better be faster than a TL-S. Bashing the TL-S makes it sound like you can't even afford a Geo Metro. Grow up, stop wasting your time bashing cars, and be happy if you really do have an S4 because they are great cars.

ZodiakTL

and what non-factual info is it that i would have posted? how do u make references to one magazine and assume that those are the facts? and why is that when i have a few simple mods, that I cannot keep up with an S4?

btw, we went out again yesterday and had repeated results, neck in neck to 1/4, then after a 100mph the S4 loses me, but guess what, both of us got slaughtered by an Eagle Talon running 16psi.

hemants

Let's put things into perspective.

1. The TL-S is about the same price as a similarly equipped A4 2.8 or BMW 323. The clear winner? TL-S

2. The S4 is about the same price as a similarly equipped 328 yet it performs more like the M3. The clear winner? S4

3. The M5 is about the same price as an entry level Porche 911. the clear winner? Depends on whether you want a sedan or a sports car.

We are talking about different blends of luxury and performance.

The S4 is definately more performance oriented than the TL-S, if you have any doubts, drive both in anything other than a straight line; but it IS in a different price category.

Given the choice between the TL-S and a 323 or A4, if you want all the luxury features that the TL-S has to offer and are willing to compromise slightly on handling, then it is a category killer.

Hemant
2001 A4 1.8Tip QSX
2002 TL-S wannabe

Guest

and this will be my last reply to it. It seems that no matter how hard you try to have an intelligent discussion via the internet, there will always be someone with a more juvenile approach than you, and they will do their best to sling insults and profanity into the equation. Such a shame.
Anyway, Zodiak a few q's for you. Did you g-tech both cars again yesterday? I'm stumped by the outcome. A stock S4 should lay waste to my car, at least when my car was totally stock it should. My 14.4's are pretty quick for a 2.7T, the quickest that I've seen yet, and I was able to back up the run so it wasn't a fluke. Since the slight modifications that I've made (aftermarket BPV's and drop in K&N) I've made only 2 more runs down the 1/4. My et's remained almost the same (ran a 14.40 and a 14.42 instead of my 14.44 and 14.48) but it was very cold the night I ran, and traction was non-existent on the starting pad. I was engaging the EDL's (electronic differential locks) on each launch, which simply slowed the car down by braking the spinning wheels. I managed to run almost 2 mph faster (in the 97.5 range) with an et that was traction limited (my 60 times had increased almost .3) in conditions that do not favor the engines performance (in low temps the ecu will cut back on boost pressures to prevent harming the engine.) For these reasons, I'm fairly certain that I'm in the 14.2-.3 range now.
What I don't understand is this:
Your friends stick S4, should be just as quick as my car, if not faster, since it's carrying around less weight. When you race, I can understand you hanging with him until 100mph or so. But, in my minds eye, he should completely waste you off the line, and you should be playing catch-up.
My reasoning:
The 2.7T engine has oodles and oodles of torque. He should be able to launch like a spitball coming out of a straw. Not one ounce of wheelspin, rear bumper dragging the ground, front bumper pointing at the moon, like a linebacker just after the ball is snapped. From 0-60, it should be all him, by about 1-1.5 carlengths.
Now, you obviously cannot launch as hard as he, you just dont have enough traction. You need to launch delicately, but strongly. Once hooked up and in the powerband (which I have NO idea where it is in your car, but I'm guessing here so bear with me) you should be able to pull reel him in. I'm quite certain that your high-rpm power is greater than the S4's. (meaning, your engine makes it power in the higher rpm range, whereas the S4's engine is pretty much done by 5000 rpm) I would think that you'd be able to pull even by the end of the 1/4 mile. Above that, as I had originally posted way back, the gearing of the S4/2.7T 6 spd is optimized for high speed acceleration. Once he hits the top of 3rd (just under 100mph) the car accelerates much quicker than you'd think.

Now, my ideas on what could be happening here:
1. I read that you have headers on your car. In a car that makes it's power at higher rpms, headers may actually hurt your low end. You will gain a few more HP, but you may have lost the same amout of Lb. ft, and that will hurt you badly in a 1/4 mile event.
2. How are you launching? I read that you brake torqued (or powerbraked). I have learned that that's not always the best way to launch an automatic. I have NO idea of what the stall speed is of you stock torque convertor, but I can give you an idea of what "flash stalling" the torque convertor did for me. (my last car was an automatic Maxima)
If you brake torque the engine to say 2000rpm, that will be your launch speed. You have, in essence, pulled the rubber band back to it's fullest extent and you are holding it there. It's stretched tight, and that's all there is to it.
If you brake torque to say 1100rpm (I mention this merely because it was the way that I launched my Maxima)all that you've done is raised the rpms to just above idle, so that the engine is not sitting with the throttle plate closed. When you get the go, you bury the accelerator and simultaneously release the brake (this must be done at the exact same time). What this does is allow the engine to race up a bit before the torque convertor stalls and begins transmitting full engine power to the wheels. If the stall speed is 1500 rpm, the engine accelerating rapidly to this speed will have slightly more momemtum than the engine that is straining against the brake at 2000rpm. This is a slight "slingshot" effect, and it can work wonders for your et. In the case of my Maxima, it made a difference of about .2 in the 1/4 mile. A couple of the automatic Audi drivers have tried this, and it has helped them, perhaps it will help you get off the line quicker. Now imagine this:
You and your buddy are neck and neck in the 1/4, then after 100 he loses you.
If you can cut your 60ft time by say .1, then you will be almost .2 quicker to the end of the 1/4. Which means that you will be almost 2 carlengths ahead of where you were previously, and thus about 1 full car ahead of the hard-charging S4. Sure, he will more than likely pass you, but you will hold him off for the entire 1/4 mile and a little more. In my experience, "flash stalling" the convertor has proven to be the quickest way to launch any automatic car that I've owned. Just before I sold my Maxima, I had a high stall convertor installed with a rebuilt for racing automatic tranny. My stall speed was 2200rpm. Meaning that flooring the throttle, the convertor would allow the engine to rev to 2200-2300 rpm before engaging fully. I was able to launch as hard (or harder) than a 5 spd Maxima with the same modifications as me.
Give it a try, or if you're not too sure about it, let me know, and whenever we meet up, I can show you first hand.

SimTypeS

Pshhhhh, the reason we don't see you posting on audiworld how you beat a 12 yr old girl in her M5 and now you think you can hang with M5s, is that we don't go to audiworld. At least I don't. Wht would I? The only reasons I can see is jealousy, or being too proud and arrogant, and not believing someone was driving a car like mine but didn't know how to trully drive it, and lost to car I thought it should beat. Even if your S4 beats our TLS by .5 seconds to 1/4 mile... sheesh, that's not worth $10K to me.
<sigh> Now you bring up mods again. Should I bring up that Supra one more time? Buy a used '98 for $30K, but $5K in mods, and do you think your S4 could hang with it? Wait, I can hear it now... "the Supra better hope it's not wet/damp out". Give it a rest, man. Your car is nice. Don't ruin it.

hemants

If you've never driven a very fast car with AWD then you don't know what you are missing.

All this talk about drag racing is moot. It's demeaning for an S4 owner to come here and say "My car is faster than yours". The S4 is a driving machine designed for twisty roads in all climactic conditions. To reduce it to a drag racer means you spent $20k too much because you could have bought a Camaro or Mustang for much less.

Peace.

4DR Assassin

Thanks. Being arrogant and an ass doesn't help anything. I dont' care to just hang around on just my kind of car forum. I have an appreciation for all cars.....well, maybe not the Aztec.

Rob

ZodiakTL

JimW,

I think that is an excellent post and the kind of information that most people are looking to find here.

We did not run gtech's again, as i only use gtech times as reference points between two cars. The time descrepancies that i've seen with people posting their gtech results null any accuracy that it may have for me. But, I think i can add several items that i think let me run with the S4 pretty evenly. I believe my reaction time is much better than my friends with the S4. He also does not launch as well as he will be able to some time down the line, as he's still getting used to this car. I think that if he was able to get ideal launches, he would jump out by about a car, and i would not be able to catch up. I am also sure that tires make a huge difference. I have ultra high perf. tires, where as he has P6000's all-season tires, and while they may be fine for everyday driving, they dont seem to grip too well at all. So even though he's AWD, he loses a lot of the advantage due to the slipping tires. From what i've seen based on my races with him, if he makes a mistake, i win, and if i make a mistake(such as VSA off, and not get a good grip), he'll run away from me and i have no chance of catching up unless he misshifts. But basically, it's a whole lot easier for him to screw up, then it is for me.

Unfortunately, i do not have any time slips(i plan to correct that this wednsday at Etown), so i do not really want to guess what my 1/4 is currently. All i know is that i can at the moment keep up with an S4 with an average stick driver.

In terms of what my headers do for me, according to the Comptech dyno's (I think they are some of the most reputable guys around, and I have no reason to doubt them) the headers will give me between 1-5hp gain throughout the whole rpm range up until ~5300rpm(negligable gains), at which point they really shine, and peak right around the 6900rpm redline with 290hp at the crank. I think that they do provide enough of a difference at the high end to really help out especially in 3rd, where I stay in that range longest. I also want to say that the TL-S's powerband starts at 4800rpm, when the 2nd stage VTEC engages, but i'm not sure that this is an accurate description.

In terms of launching, to the best of my knowledge, the TL-S stall speed is 2k rpm, and that is where I launch, doing exactly as u described - my left foot lifts off the brake as my right foot is flooring the gas pedal. If I understood what u said correctly, ur advise is to stay slightly below that 2k before launching? It definitely sounds sensible with ur explanation, and i will try it the next time around (mabye against u ). A better launch will help in everything, so here is one more thing to experiment with.

Hopefully this wednsday I'll be able to get several good runs in there and see what works best for me.

4DR Assassin

ZodiakTL,

Would a VTEC controller work on your car? If so, what kind of gains can be had with one? Just curious. Gotta know what my compotetion is doing.

Good luck tomorrow at the strip.

Rob

Guest

I know that I can sometimes get diarrhea of the mouth (or keyboard in this case:p ) But sometimes, I might actually say something that's important..
A little background on me:
I'll be 31 on 7/25, I've been a car nut since birth (first thing I ever read was a C/D magazine from 1973, I still have that magazine to this very day) I graduated high-school and went to Baruch college. I left Baruch and transferred to NYC Technical college, Automotive Technology student. (my intention was to be an automotive engineer) I've had classroom and lab experience in alternate powerplants, hydraulics, thermodynamics, engine assembly and dismantling, A/C principles and servicing, brakes, chassis and just about every other aspect of the modern automobile. I was also a speed junkie. Drag racing was my thing, I never had a really fast car, but I always raced whatever I had. Throughout college I worked as a Chrylser Technician (my last year in college) I needed a job (on the books) as a technician if I was to ever get a decent paying job in the repair field. This was to pay my way thru engineering school. I was a darn good mechanic, and the dealer exploited this. Here I was, 21 years old, and I could pull a auto tranny out of a car, break it down and rebuild it, and have it back in the car by end of the day. I did engine rebuilding there (even replaced the turbos on a Dodge Stealth RT (that job was a headache) and learned more and more every day. I moved onto working at STS in new jersey. I prepared to take the ASE certification tests to be a Master Technician. Then, because of the wrong woman at the wrong time, I fell off the horse and had a complete carreer change.
I was looking through my old timeslips lately, and I've got over 40 timeslips from my old Maxima alone. I've got pretty good experience with drag racing, and if there's anything I can help with let me know. I'm always willing to lend some helpful advice..
That's if you can bear to read it.

city001

remember 1 thing guys...most of those audis..rely on turbos..to get that speed...

and our tl-s does NOT have turbo....

and it comes only with AUTO and SS...no MANUAL..imagine what manual and Turbos/supercharger can do for the TL-S...

The one main reason I liked the TL-S is because it has 260 hp...it's Fast...and it's auto with SS....all for a great price around mid 30's with navi MY perfect combo in a car.

G

Turboara

This is a very interesting and informative thread. However, as is the case with many of these threads, we end up comparing apples to oranges. The Tl-S is a luxury sport sedan with the emphasis strongly on luxury. The S4 is a luxury sports sedan with the emphasis strongly on sport + $10,000.

The tl-S is more in line with a 325/330/525/530/A4/A6/ES300/IS300/I30

Once you throw in a hard core S4, there is a bigger disparity with a type S. An S4 is more for the GS400/M3/M5/AMG crowd.

And like someone above said, you don't want to reduce the S4 to a drag car b/c it will be killed by real drag cars like supras, rx-7's, dsm's, vettes, camaros and mustangs.

4DR Assassin

For the price, the TLS is very highly respected in my book. If I had to get an FWD sedan, it would be #1 on my list. Even though I'm a german car fanatic, I would take the TLS in a second over any other sedan in the 28-32k range.

As for the turbo vs. N/A issue, it doesn't matter. It's not how you make your power, it's do you have power. The main reason for the turbos on the S4 is to make a torque curve that's nearly impossible to do with an N/A motor. Max tq from 1850-4000rpm is damn difficult with a N/A 6 or V8. It makes for a very driveable car in day to day use. Now, having turbos from the factory makes for a big advantage in getting hp from mods. But with every pro, there's a con. Makes for a fun world, don't you think?

ZodiakTL

thanks Assassin.
as far as a VTEC controller for my car, i've seen a couple of things from people using it with modded TL/TLS. some claimed 10hp to the wheels, others claimed 25hp gains in hp band overall, when the 2nd stage VTEC point was lowered. Meaning it was able to produce all of its 260+ ponies faster than stock VTEC settings. But almost noone provides any dyno's, so i don't know whether its true and how it was measured. on the other hand, i can see how people might think that there are better ways of spending $100-200 then using them for a dyno. But regardless, there are still other mods to do, before i decide to try a VAFC controller. Next i'll be getting the CAI, and then probably pulleys. And hopefully by the end of the year the Comptech supercharger will be out, and then 360 little ponies will be pulling my carriage.

RUF87

Quote from ZERINS4 -

"Any of you TL guys wanna go head to head with my S4? If anyones in Houston and wants to run em, let me know!"


Yep - I do! How much money do you have to lose? It's got to be worth the drive down I45.

BTW - Not stock either and not a TLS!


Oh, and any stock S4s in the Dallas area, please be ready. Stock TLS is looking to see if you guys are any good.

Guest

I just recently purchased my '02 TLS (Today as a matter of fact), and I have been test driving cars for the past month. Going back and forth from BMW, Audi and Lexus. I was looking at the 330ci, the S4 and the sc300(total crap). It was only last week that I went into the Acura dealership, due to the fact that a friend of mine in Ohio just recently purchased a TLS and he said that I should go check them out. Here is what I came up with:

The 330ci is a very nice car, german engineering rocks, but I still think that the TLS is faster, but the handling isn't as crisp as the beemer.

As for the S4, I found this to be an extrodinary car. Although it is hard for me to make a side-by-side comparison between the two, it seems that S4 seemed a tad quicker though. As for handling, the S4 will blow doors off of the TLS. Again, probably German Engineering.

As for the sc300, not even going to say a thing about it, piece of crap and would recommend it to an enemy.

I bought the TLS for three reasons: First the performance that you get out of the car (good accelleration, speed, handling), Stock features of the car (leather, heated seats, xenon headlights, etc), and of course the value, great price.

Just my two cents...

1SICKLEX

Wow never heard anyone call the sc300 a piece of crap before....
True it doesn't offer half the gadgets of newer cars, but the sc300 still looks new (been out for 10 years ) while some newer cars look old already......

Wow a piece of crap.......(thought I was harsh:p )

I think the only comparo I saw with a S4 was the M3/saab 9-3 viggen and the amg c-class (forgot the name)

The S4 won (barely) which attests to the M3's greatness (also a 10 year old design)

hemants

[/begin half drunken rant]

No offence but you drag racer boys crack me up.

First of all racing on public streets is dangerous and perhaps you will only wise up when you kill some mother and her baby crossing a street.

That being said, performance times for most cars are published before you buy them. So what is there to prove in a stock car?

A stock Tl-S is about the same as a stock S4 automatic.

So if you beat a manual S4 it means the driver of the S4 couldn't shift as well as the automatic (which is not very good at all).

Enjoy your car and it's features and stop behaving like 17 year olds in their dad's mustang. The TL-S is a fabulous blend of performance and LUXURY so stop insulting it by posting "Do you think the TL-S could beat a __________"

[/end of half drunken rant]

Guest

Zodiak - I haven't even read through this whole post so you'll have to excuse me if I miss anything...

I have a 6 spd S4 and I'd love to run you. I'm in Central Jersey and I'm at Etown alot. I'd like to obviously race 1/4 mile, a few rolling starts from varying speed and a top end run. I can't get any TL/CL-S to play over here...So what do you say ??? Feel free to email me !

My s4 is bone stock, time slips are in my sig. It was about 85 degrees in the 14.2 slip. I'm still not cutting perfect launches should be in the 1.9's and i'll see low low 14's. I also beleive my trap speed is suffering due to ****ty stock bypass valves. Oh well, no excuses....let's run them

ZodiakTL

Prodigy,

I'd love to run against u, and i'm gonna be in ETown tonight, probably around 6:30 or so and till 10. Let me know if u wanna come down. Its a shame my friend with the S4 cant make it, cuz i know he'd love to get some tips from u. let me know. PM me or email me, and we'll trade numbers so we can meet up.