RUF87

Sometime back there was a discussion regarding rough idle, stalling and lurching at idle.

Well I just got back from my first oil change and while I was in I had them check out this problem. At first they tried to pass it off as maybe a bad tank of gas or some other anomaly. After telling them it's been happening since I got it and has even died on me a few times they finally agreed to run some diagnostics.

An hour later I get my car back, with 5w-30 Mobil 1, and notice that they made a note on the report regarding some change they made for the idle problem.

The note reads: "As per tech line disabled ELD so charging system operates all the time not just on deceleration."

I asked the service manager about this and he said that the idle issue is a known problem to the tech line folks and this mod seems to work. The ELD feature engages the charging system whenever it's needed. He didn't know much more beyond that, just that this feature may cause the idle speed to be adjusted too often and with everything else that is going on it results in an erratic idle.

Anyway, that's their story. I've driven it about 15 miles and haven't noticed any idle problems so far. Also, it seemed more responsive off the line and on down shifts, but it's too early to tell. Maybe this mod did the trick, or maybe it was the Mobil-1. Oh, I used my "free oil change certificate" and they even pick up the cost of the Mobil 1 for me.

I'll post an update after a few weeks and I can be a little more sure of the results.


RUF

bioyuki

Thx a lot...calling my dealer right now...

RUF87

Your welcome.

I'm fairly optimistic about this mod working.

I've also thought about the perceived better performance I'm getting as well.
I think that because of the erratic idle speed things were not running optimally. For instance, if the idle speed is dropping because the charging system is engaging and then the ECM has to send a message to compensate for that . And this is happening at a very fast interval, you can feel it and see it on the tach, you don't have a very clean and or smooth running engine. Which means you don't have an engine that is performing at its peak potential.

So while this may not mean more HP, it does mean more efficient HP which means better performance all the way around. It could be worth a couple of 10th in your 0-60 times depending on what the engine was going through at the moment you apply full throttle.

Then again, you will have constant drag from the alternator, however it is turning all the time anyway so this is probably not an issue.

Good luck and let me know if you have any trouble with your service department.

RUF

Road Rage

This makes no sense.

A charging system that only works in decel would cause a dead battery in a few minutes - think about - if you are crusing on the highway, you could go for hour without a decel.

Efficient horsepower? I gotta go look that one up....

I can't find ELD in my manual - what does it stand for?

RUF87

Road Rage.

What are you trying to make sense of?

Are you experiencing any idle problems? If so, just check with your service manager. If not, no need to worry about understanding it.

As for the way the ELD works, you'll have to contact Acura's tech line or a technical manual. You won't find something this technical in the owner's manual.

The comments could have just been a choice of wording their fix on the limited space the form provides. Which would allow for a real detailed explanation that most people wouldn't read or understand in the first place.

As for understanding efficient HP. I simply meant that all systems are working efficiently and maximum HP will be achieved.

Example: Rated HP is 260 for the Type S. If something is not working as it should, you will not reach the full potential 260 HP available. So basically, if you have the idle problem, it is hindering the engine from producing maximum HP at that point.

This I know that for a fact. Anyone who's a qualified mechanic or has similar experience will know this to be true as well.

Anyway - go talk to your service manager and let them explain it to you.

RUF

RUF87

I did a quick check for you and found out what ELD stands for.

Electronic Load Detector Circuit.

Make sense now, right.

Nate

I usually don't visit the Type S forum but thought this might prove useful. From SSMAN66

Ruf87, maybe you can check out your alternator and see if this green wire is disconnected. I'd bet it is.

Road Rage

Read more carefully:

1) I did not say owner's manual - I invested in the shop manual - did you?
2) Efficient horsepower still makes no sense - words mean things - an idle problem almost never has any effect on driving dynmics off idle - examine how an Idle air control works - it blleds in more air when the car is standing still or when accessories cut in, but is out of circuit when the car is over low RPM.
3) It still makes no sense that the charge would occur only in decel mode - hey, you guys posted it, make sense of it/
4) My car does not have that problem - why would I want to talk to the service manager?

I could not find a desc of the ELD, but I doubt it controls charging only in decel mode - it far more likely modulates the alternator output based on accessory demand, which will improve mpg somewhat by reducing parasitic drag.

BarryH

Quite a few people have posted about a "pulse" that occurs when the car is stopped in gear. The general consensus was that it was the AC compressor cycling on and off. Actually, the ELD explanation makes more sense. Having the alternator cycle off and on as needed based on load could cause the same "pulse" as the ECM adjusts the idle to compensate. Occasionally, I feel this also but it isn't a big enough deal to have a system that's doing what it's designed to do disabled.

Road Rage

True, but I do not think that is what this thread is discussing.

Hey guys, did you disconnect anything?

One other thing - if the alternator is not charging, the charger warning light should come on the dash.

Another thing to consider - these hi output alternators get hot when deliver full current - there might be a long term reliability issue in bypassing the ELD, esp. in hot weather.

So I would only let the dealer bypass as a very temporary workaround.

The new 48v Euro alternators will be liquid cooled by the way.

RUF87

Sorry, I've given all the details that I got from the dealer.

Soapbox on -

As for your technical manual, I would have bought one from the manufacturer and not some auto store brand. They never have the full details. I know that for a fact because I used to have the "real" technical manual not the Chilton and such.

As for your comments on the effects it would have on performance, I hate to be blunt, but I do know what I'm talking about here. I had one of the most consistent cars on the track year after year and I built, not bought, built from the ground up my own engine.

Anyway, it seems that you are attacking this issue simply because you don't understand it. That makes no sense to me. My only suggestion is to talk to an Acura certified technician and let them explain what the ELD does and what exactly it does to the charging system.

Remember, Acura Tech Line came up with this solution and they should be smarter than both of us.

Soapbox off -

RUF

EricL

I don't know who is correct and who is incorrect -- that is NOT why I'm adding a comment.

If there is indeed a system that PULLs current during deceleration, this would be great! Since we don't have a battery to recharge (ALA Hybrid), the idea of actually pulling a good plug of current during deceleration (why not help braking), is a great idea. Why not use that wasted energy to "simulate" the operation of a TRUE HYBRID -- put the braking energy back into the battery (charge system).

If the system is NOT getting enough deceleration, than check for a too low battery voltage, and enable the field coils/controller to draw more power to keep the battery at a good power level.

(I like the idea -- that's all I'm saying...)

RUF87

Hey folks - I'm not trying to prove a point here, just trying to pass off a helpful tip that did fix the idle problem I had and understood others to have mentioned.

While Road Rage is trying to get the exact understanding of what, why and how all this is so, I'm satisfied that the fix worked and it makes sense. It was never explained to me how the charging system works in complete detail and I really didn't care. Perhaps I trusted the Acura Technical Support team on this. Perhaps it introduces some other potential issue with the charging system. However, I trust that these guys are smart enough to know if their fix disables the charging system that the battery will be dead in a few weeks. So I trust that the fix will not cause my battery to fail within a few weeks. If it does I'll post that it did and will eat my plate of humble pie.

As far as charging systems go, it's been sometime since I've actually worked on them and add to that the some things have changed. Regardless, an alternator doesn't need to charge the battery all the time. The way I suspect that this system works is the logic determines when the battery needs charging and then engages the charging circuit.

As for the effect on the idling issue, once the RPMs drop below a certain point, the alternator no longer puts out enough juice to power all of the cars electrical needs. Those needs are dependent on what accessories are being used. A/C, Lights, Stereo, etc. So taking this assumption one step further, the timing when the alternator no longer produces enough juice to supply those needs will vary. This variance can happen at various RPMs. Since the idle problem was not constant , especially the severity of it, this could explain what is happening here. You're slowing down and as you come to a stop the idle circuit kicks in and at some point so does the alternator. Then say that at almost the same time the A/C kicks in and so do the radiator fans. All these rapidly changing demands on maintaining the idle speed has the logic going crazy. Basically it is not doing a good job of keeping up with it all. Not only that, but you've changed the electrical demands of the charging system. So to help matters out, they remove one of the variables to mitigate the problem. Again, in my case it appears to be working.

Now the real question that I suspect that Road Rage has is what exactly is it that has been disabled? That is a good question and I don't have that answer. That is why I suggested following up with their service person.

I apologize for reacting to Road Rages comments regarding what I posted, but I stand on the comments about it effecting overall performance and such, and I will put money on it.

RUF

Road Rage

Jeez, all I asked for was an explanation of the principle involved. I am glad Ruf you have all this expertise, then how about explaining the principle behind your comments?You implied the idle system affects performance off-idle - how? As I indicated, every idel system I know of (GM, Ford, BMW) is effectively out of circuit off-idle.

I agree that Acura engineering has more knowledge than us - so what is the point of that? - that is not a response to my question. I was merely questioning the long-term effects of their field correction - these happen in the car biz, but are usually tremporary until the eng. folks come up with a better solution, or parts to correct. Are you saying that the disconnect is a permanent fix from Acura? Then my comments about longevity are unfounded. If it is not a permanent fix, then my admonition to remind folks to stay on their dealer abut the permanent fix is valid.

I asked an Acura technician about the ELD (two actually) and neither knew what it was. One did agree that a system that charges only on decel would run down the battery - which is exactly what I said. You seem to suggest otherwise in the last post, if I read you correctly. I also believe my premise that the ELD modulates charging as opposed to switching charging off and on depending on whether the battery needs current is much more likely to be how the system operates.

Hey, man, I am on your side - I just read so many posts on this site (not from you) that are just flat out gasbagging, that I feel I can contribute sometimes by asking folks to extend and explain, in the hopes that the rest of the Forum readers can sift out baloney from gold. Some of the statements made on this Forum are so wrong that they could affect safety or longevity of your car. (Remember the Great Amsoil Debate - 25k oil changes with a less than G5 lube? - not in my car!)

If you find out more about the ELD, I for one would love to hear how it works, and if I anything I posted is shown to be wrong, I will be the first to admit such.\

Iloveyouman!

Road Rage

I did some checking and there are a few posts on the Web about the ELD - it appears to send a message to the ECU about current draw, so the ECU can modulate the idle and keep things smooth. That appears to be all it does. It does not appear to actively control alternator function. (that was posted by an Acura tech guy at a dealership, for whatever that is worth.)

Wash n Wax

I'm buying...

Chill pills included...

LoveSick

The dealers get pissed when I told them that I know what the problem was. Because they felt that I was telling them what to do. They were very pissed when I told them that I found the solution of the problem on the internet.

RUF87

Hey Road Rage,

Let's take the up on the beer and we can shake on it.

In otherwords, I apologise for responding to your response in a negative manner. As you said you felt it may have been a bunch of bunk and your response to my post came across as a negative instead of positive questioning.

Anyway, peace!

As for the performance improvement item goes I truely believe that there is an improvement. Why, if the engine is not dealing with the idle problem effectively then it is very likely to have not been running optimally. So I don't mean this fix makes the car faster, it just run more efficiently. Basically a poorly running engine won't make the most of its potential HP or what I coined as efficeint HP.

Let me know if this makes sense. If it doesn't send me a PM on where to call you and we can chat about it verbally since my verbal communications is better than my written.

RUF

Road Rage

Ruf - due to my professional affililiations, I need to remain anonymous. I made the mistake of going "visible" on an audio newsgroup (my other love) and I now have 10 guys asking for advice on their audio systems every day. I am staying a mole baby.

But I am cool with you - of course you are right about an engine running better when all is well. My ooint was (is?) that most idle systems have not effect on general peformance. An idle problem can be caused ny zillions of things (EGR, sensor, etc.) but idle control systems are "out of the loop" whenever the throttle is "open".

BTW, do you own a Ruf Porsche, or are you justa Ruf dude?

rahgir

can the same mod be for a 97 3.2 TL? i have idle problems sometimes when first starting the car up. Thanks

2K3_TLs

My idle problem was caused by a dirty IACV. took it off, cleaned it, no more idle problem. Although, what you are talking about seems that it was a more severe idle issue than mine. But I'm sure you looked into that IACV before delving as deep as you did here. Anywho, I'm glad that you have that idle issue resolved.

sqa4life

My car has rough idle after the mechanic replaced the timing belt, water pump and clean the fuel injection system. I took it back to the shop & they couldn't pull any code. They keep telling me to replace other parts like, engine mounts. still idle rough after all engine mounts were replaced.

Do you guy think I should take it to the acura dealer?
Normally, how much do they charge for diagnostic?
What if they can't find the root cause? Will I still have to pay?

Blue_TL

Pull your throttle body and upper manifold, then clean the EGR port and the IACV. Look in the DIY section, it has step by step instructions with pictures. My car had the same surging idle, once you see the gunk on the IACV and the EGR you will understand.