Exhaust Drone

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old 10-17-2011, 09:52 AM
  #1  
Senior Moderator
Thread Starter
 
fsttyms1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Appleton WI
Age: 49
Posts: 81,383
Received 3,063 Likes on 2,119 Posts
Exhaust Drone

Exhaust Drone. So i have been thinking about it and trying to get rid of the drone (while minimal with my setup) while allowing it to be louder than it is. Research has come up with the "J" pipe. Its a length of pipe designed to cancel out certain frequencies while not affecting performance. Something like this would be great for us as Drone is the biggest issue with our cars and exhausts.. Now we need someone to figure out the math and make some "J" pipes..

http://solo-performance.com/performance-exhaust-kits

This is an example of it from a Camaro




Info i have found on line


J-pipes do more than dampen the sound. They elliminate it. Basically, since the J-pipes are sealed, consider them a "high pressure" area.

Let me back up a little bit here. Exhaust gasses are racing (excitedly) out to the end of your exhaust tips so they can reach the air, where the pressure is lower than where they came from (The combustion chamber and various exhaust components, actually!) ... so Exhaust gasses want to "get out" to an area of low pressure. Got it?

So since the J-pipes are sealed, no real "exhaust gasses" ever get into the J-pipes to begin with. To the exhaust gasses, the J-pipes are simply another wall that is not an option to exit from.

Sound waves are completely different. Sound waves can travel through just about anything... water, metal, etc. Sound waves are a byproduct of combustion engines. If you've ever heard "open headers" like on race cars or demo derby cars, you know what everything "really sounds like" right out of the combustion process. Normal factory stock exhaust systems are usually over-engineered to appease the 'transportation' type of person who does not like hearing engine noises. This is why enthusiasts upgrade to aftermarket exhaust components.

Drone is usually solved by a nearly silent stock exhaust system (over-engineered) ... and drone is the uncomfortable level of soundwaves, as they reverberate not only in the cabin but also in your eardrums.

What J-pipes do is allow the soundwaves to enter into the "mouth" of the J-pipes, and if you remember cosine/sine graphs from math class, you know what sound waves generally look like. Now the sound waves are inside this capped "tube" ... bouncing off each side in a certain pattern (Hertz rating) ... then BAM. they hit that cap at the end of the J-pipe. Now those sound waves are reflected in the exact opposite direction, in exactly the inverse wavelength pattern (effectively cancelling out that calculated soundwave pattern) and then at the "mouth" of the J-pipe, they safely exit back into the exhaust stream and out the rear of the car, now the inverse of what they were when they entered the J-pipe. The magic happens when the two inverses collide, within the J-pipe itself. This actually elliminates the sound that was calculated (or in other words, the exact overall length that you made the J-pipe).

If your calculation is wrong, you will not elliminate the sound.

This is completely different than "dampering" the metal to make the vibrations a different frequency, like you seemed to have suggested. While that works in some applications, the source of this drone is the engine itself, with it's specific engine harmonics. As soon as that stock exhaust system is replaced with a "performance" exhaust system, you get the nice rumble of a freer flowing exhaust system, however, now those engine harmonic traits (drone in certain RPM and engine load combination conditions) show their ugly head. J-pipes to the rescue!
Simply put, the formula for determining the length of a Helmholtz chamber used to knock out a drone frequency is:

1100 feet/second (roughly the speed of sound) divided by the target frequency you're trying to eliminate (in cycles/second) gives a full wavelength in feet per cycle. Divide this number by 4 to get a quarter wavelength (a much more convenient length to work with). Finally, multiply this wavelength by 12 to get the chamber length in inches.

Tap this length of pipe into the exhaust tube, making sure the other end of the pipe is capped off, and you have a Helmholtz chamber that takes the annoying frequency and bounces it back into the flow 180 degrees out of phase, knocking it out. The results: no more drone.
Old 10-17-2011, 09:53 AM
  #2  
Senior Moderator
Thread Starter
 
fsttyms1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Appleton WI
Age: 49
Posts: 81,383
Received 3,063 Likes on 2,119 Posts
Discuss
Old 10-17-2011, 10:30 AM
  #3  
2003 TL-p
 
gold2003tl (90)'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Reading, PA
Age: 33
Posts: 1,587
Received 19 Likes on 16 Posts
i like the idea, for those who have taken math class, just think of sin/cos wave graphs canceling each other out. Trying to replicate the example you posted from the camaro might be worth a shot, if you guess the pipe lengths right. we have enough room in the rear for that, also i think its similar to the g35's set up. let us know if you do any experimentation, good luck
Old 10-17-2011, 10:35 AM
  #4  
MechEng
iTrader: (9)
 
03tLsNBP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Long Island, NY
Age: 34
Posts: 5,910
Received 486 Likes on 403 Posts
Cutouts would help. Open them when you want, close them on the highway. Not the most elegant solution but it works and it's relatively cheap.
Old 10-17-2011, 10:52 AM
  #5  
Avant Garde Wheels
iTrader: (23)
 
jjashaa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Cypress, CA
Age: 34
Posts: 14,026
Received 349 Likes on 291 Posts
something similar to this is like....

that 2nd chamber next to the muffler works to cancel out drone.. or so they claim.

Old 10-17-2011, 11:42 AM
  #6  
Racer
iTrader: (1)
 
swllen_cu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: New Orleans, La
Age: 36
Posts: 458
Received 15 Likes on 15 Posts
G35/350z HKS set ups are exactly like this. They have a jpipe with a big round resonator right before each muffler exit. I always wondered what those things were for
Old 10-17-2011, 12:06 PM
  #7  
Senior Moderator
Thread Starter
 
fsttyms1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Appleton WI
Age: 49
Posts: 81,383
Received 3,063 Likes on 2,119 Posts
I think its something with these motors that need to be looked into more. I think we could have great sounding exhaust without the drone.
Old 10-17-2011, 12:16 PM
  #8  
Senior Moderator
Thread Starter
 
fsttyms1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Appleton WI
Age: 49
Posts: 81,383
Received 3,063 Likes on 2,119 Posts
All it would take is a cap made and one could just slowly lop off a little pipe at a time and see how they like the result until they got the correct/perfect length
Old 10-17-2011, 01:27 PM
  #9  
Pro
 
KatabaticSaint's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Nova
Age: 32
Posts: 662
Received 48 Likes on 45 Posts
I like this. Its a little more elegant than cutouts and plus one of the reasons I haven't messed with my exhaust yet is the drone and rasp and if a j pipe could be manufactured to work I could finally build a custom exhaust that sounds like a G35 but louder... I have a friend who works in an exhaust shop ill see if he thinks it can be done.
Old 10-17-2011, 03:51 PM
  #10  
Racer
iTrader: (1)
 
swllen_cu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: New Orleans, La
Age: 36
Posts: 458
Received 15 Likes on 15 Posts
But how could we make it fit down there and not look stupid noticeable?
Old 10-18-2011, 12:15 AM
  #11  
Pro
 
KatabaticSaint's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Nova
Age: 32
Posts: 662
Received 48 Likes on 45 Posts
Won't be easy but if it's black might be less noticeable
Old 10-18-2011, 01:07 AM
  #12  
Unregistered Member
iTrader: (2)
 
Karanx7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Age: 33
Posts: 4,144
Received 556 Likes on 446 Posts
It looks like the idea is to build interference/destructive sound waves. Don't think like sin/cos, because sound waves move back and forth, not up and down.

It would be expensive research to find the best point at which the sound cancels well. Of course the frequency of the sound matters too. I'll look into this a little later, maybe tomorrow.
The following users liked this post:
phee (10-29-2011)
Old 10-18-2011, 01:18 AM
  #13  
Three Wheelin'
iTrader: (3)
 
n1njai's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: THE OC
Age: 37
Posts: 1,666
Received 70 Likes on 60 Posts
This is a sweet idea! Definitely need more research on this, is there a company out there that is looking for donor cars for something like this to happen?
Old 10-18-2011, 07:33 AM
  #14  
Senior Moderator
Thread Starter
 
fsttyms1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Appleton WI
Age: 49
Posts: 81,383
Received 3,063 Likes on 2,119 Posts
Originally Posted by swllen_cu
But how could we make it fit down there and not look stupid noticeable?
There is all sorts of room under teh car, not to mention odds are there would be no need for mufflers and they could go there. All one would need is a mid muffler/resonator.

You could do something like this



Last edited by fsttyms1; 10-18-2011 at 07:36 AM.
Old 10-18-2011, 07:35 AM
  #15  
Senior Moderator
Thread Starter
 
fsttyms1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Appleton WI
Age: 49
Posts: 81,383
Received 3,063 Likes on 2,119 Posts
Id be half tempted to try and modify a set of G8 pipes like above
The following users liked this post:
KatabaticSaint (10-20-2011)
Old 10-18-2011, 10:13 AM
  #16  
Instructor
iTrader: (4)
 
doneACCORDingly's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Burlington, NC
Posts: 108
Received 12 Likes on 8 Posts

3" inlet/outlet 2" piping...
what I will be going with next year

you guys may like something like this to use at the split in the mid-rear

Last edited by doneACCORDingly; 10-18-2011 at 10:16 AM.
Old 10-18-2011, 10:36 AM
  #17  
6G TLX-S
 
Edward'TLS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: YVR
Posts: 10,191
Received 1,152 Likes on 823 Posts
If the J-pipe cancels out exhaust drone at some frequencies, drone at other frequencies may suddenly appear because the new addition J-pipe will now resonate at different frequencies than the previous pipe it has replaced with.
Old 10-18-2011, 11:20 AM
  #18  
Senior Moderator
Thread Starter
 
fsttyms1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Appleton WI
Age: 49
Posts: 81,383
Received 3,063 Likes on 2,119 Posts
Originally Posted by Edward'TLS
If the J-pipe cancels out exhaust drone at some frequencies, drone at other frequencies may suddenly appear because the new addition J-pipe will now resonate at different frequencies than the previous pipe it has replaced with.
Its designed to cancel out the low annoying ones. Listen to the in car vids of the G8. You cant hear the exhaust while cruising, when he jumps on it though you can hear the bark and the sound outside the car is great(of course with a V8). I think we could achieve something similar with a little playing. When i bypass my comptechs with my inserts the sound is great, at 3k its almost exotic sounding while cruising. BUT at 2k-2500 its very very annoying.
Old 10-18-2011, 12:20 PM
  #19  
Racer
iTrader: (1)
 
swllen_cu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: New Orleans, La
Age: 36
Posts: 458
Received 15 Likes on 15 Posts
I wonder how our cars would looks without a muffler though... Or I guess we could used big tips instead.

That's the main reason why I sold my tanabe hyperedallion. It sounded sexy at every rpm except 2000-2600. Droned like a mother
Old 10-18-2011, 12:26 PM
  #20  
Team Owner
iTrader: (15)
 
Flipster23's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 35,747
Received 2,334 Likes on 1,962 Posts
Noice. This would be dope!!
Old 10-18-2011, 02:37 PM
  #21  
Registered Nonmember
 
TheMightyQuinn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: San Diego
Posts: 343
Received 62 Likes on 53 Posts
Is there an accepted range of frequencies at which this "drone" occurs?
Old 10-18-2011, 06:33 PM
  #22  
Senior Moderator
Thread Starter
 
fsttyms1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Appleton WI
Age: 49
Posts: 81,383
Received 3,063 Likes on 2,119 Posts
Originally Posted by TheMightyQuinn
Is there an accepted range of frequencies at which this "drone" occurs?
2k to around 2600 or so
Old 10-18-2011, 06:34 PM
  #23  
Senior Moderator
Thread Starter
 
fsttyms1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Appleton WI
Age: 49
Posts: 81,383
Received 3,063 Likes on 2,119 Posts
Originally Posted by swllen_cu
I wonder how our cars would looks without a muffler though... Or I guess we could used big tips instead.

That's the main reason why I sold my tanabe hyperedallion. It sounded sexy at every rpm except 2000-2600. Droned like a mother
Probably look much better as you wouldnt have those 2 large canisters hanging there
Old 10-18-2011, 08:36 PM
  #24  
kill you till you die
 
yeedatoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Charlotte, NC
Age: 39
Posts: 669
Received 46 Likes on 46 Posts
Originally Posted by jjashaa
something similar to this is like....

that 2nd chamber next to the muffler works to cancel out drone.. or so they claim.


Mugen makes Twin loop mufflers that look similar to this..DC used them as well. Even the rip off versions on Ebay work...they sound great.
Old 10-19-2011, 10:17 AM
  #25  
Registered Nonmember
 
TheMightyQuinn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: San Diego
Posts: 343
Received 62 Likes on 53 Posts
Originally Posted by fsttyms1
2k to around 2600 or so
Are you sure it's that high? That would equate to a length of about 1.5". Quickly browsing another forum one guy claims the drone resonance occurs at 115 Hz in the G8 which yields a pipe length of 29" which seems similar to the helmholtz chambers others are making.
Old 10-19-2011, 02:06 PM
  #26  
Senior Moderator
Thread Starter
 
fsttyms1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Appleton WI
Age: 49
Posts: 81,383
Received 3,063 Likes on 2,119 Posts
Originally Posted by TheMightyQuinn
Are you sure it's that high? That would equate to a length of about 1.5". Quickly browsing another forum one guy claims the drone resonance occurs at 115 Hz in the G8 which yields a pipe length of 29" which seems similar to the helmholtz chambers others are making.
I thought you were talking about the RPM. As for the frequencies i have no clue, i dont have a meter but im sure its similar. Its pretty low and deep in the spectrum.
Old 10-19-2011, 04:39 PM
  #27  
6G TLX-S
 
Edward'TLS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: YVR
Posts: 10,191
Received 1,152 Likes on 823 Posts
Originally Posted by fsttyms1
Probably look much better as you wouldnt have those 2 large canisters hanging there
Even though those extra canisters will do the job, but will they also slow down the exhaust flow. Slower exhaust flow = loss in mid-to-high rpm performance, but good for low-end torque.
Old 10-19-2011, 04:42 PM
  #28  
Senior Moderator
Thread Starter
 
fsttyms1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Appleton WI
Age: 49
Posts: 81,383
Received 3,063 Likes on 2,119 Posts
Originally Posted by Edward'TLS
Even though those extra canisters will do the job, but will they also slow down the exhaust flow. Slower exhaust flow = loss in mid-to-high rpm performance, but good for low-end torque.
For the average driver i doubt you would ever notice any loss. For me and my new 3.5/6 motor im looking for every ounce of top end power possible. When i put in my inserts that bypass the comptechs baffling you can feel the gain in upper rpm power. But like said above the drone isnt something fun to live with.
Old 10-19-2011, 05:37 PM
  #29  
Avant Garde Wheels
iTrader: (23)
 
jjashaa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Cypress, CA
Age: 34
Posts: 14,026
Received 349 Likes on 291 Posts
Originally Posted by yeedatoy
Mugen makes Twin loop mufflers that look similar to this..DC used them as well. Even the rip off versions on Ebay work...they sound great.
i believe mugen's twin loop design is to suppress loud. not drone
Old 10-19-2011, 05:39 PM
  #30  
Avant Garde Wheels
iTrader: (23)
 
jjashaa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Cypress, CA
Age: 34
Posts: 14,026
Received 349 Likes on 291 Posts
then again.. i could be wrong.
Old 10-28-2011, 02:44 AM
  #31  
10th Gear
 
taman86's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Age: 36
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
may sound dumb, but anyone just put in a series of resonators or a couple of 24"ers. my 97 grand prix gtp with 3.8l v6 i sold recently had some pretty serious drone. alot of guys complained about it also. they cut the stock res and mid pipe and put 2 24" resonators or 3 16" ones, took away the low drone at lower cruising rpms. i had flowmaster 40 series baffeled mufflers with stock res and ebay headers and i really like the sound of it and didnt mind the drone too much. not a v8 with headers and x pipe but not bad for a v6. when i get some better cash flow i am going to upgrade the exhaust for sure on my tl, cant even hear it. going to be looking for a nice muscular sound trying to stay away from the ricer sound.
Old 10-29-2011, 12:40 PM
  #32  
Senior Moderator
Thread Starter
 
fsttyms1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Appleton WI
Age: 49
Posts: 81,383
Received 3,063 Likes on 2,119 Posts
Just saw Dynomax makes these mufflers with the flap inside that opens and closes.

http://www.dynomax.com/mufflers.php?muffler=vt
Old 10-29-2011, 04:26 PM
  #33  
I got the Shifts
iTrader: (5)
 
phee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 35
Posts: 14,203
Received 230 Likes on 163 Posts
Step one would be to take a wind shielded cardioid condensor microphone and record the exhaust at the rpm range that creates the drone (no higher, no lower)

Pop the audio file into a program with any type of spectrum analyzer and adjust high/low pass until the drone is isolated. Play the sound through a speaker into your exhaust and tweak the piping to eliminate the drone.
Old 10-29-2011, 04:27 PM
  #34  
I got the Shifts
iTrader: (5)
 
phee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 35
Posts: 14,203
Received 230 Likes on 163 Posts
Your exhaust would have to be off the car. And the speaker would have to be sealed where it meets the piping.
Old 10-30-2011, 12:39 PM
  #35  
Senior Moderator
Thread Starter
 
fsttyms1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Appleton WI
Age: 49
Posts: 81,383
Received 3,063 Likes on 2,119 Posts
Im going to try the Dynomax VT mufflers and see how they do.
Old 10-30-2011, 02:57 PM
  #36  
Pro
 
KatabaticSaint's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Nova
Age: 32
Posts: 662
Received 48 Likes on 45 Posts
Haha fstty you beat me to it i saw a commercial last night for the vt's and was just about to mention them. I was a little to drunk to type last night...
Old 01-27-2012, 01:26 PM
  #37  
Pro
 
KatabaticSaint's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Nova
Age: 32
Posts: 662
Received 48 Likes on 45 Posts
Any Progress with the Vt's Fstty?
Old 02-15-2012, 09:09 PM
  #38  
ibs
Advanced
 
ibs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: atlanta, GA
Posts: 96
Received 10 Likes on 10 Posts
I have a tl and my best friends dad specializes on Acura, cool guy, drives the baddest NSX I have ever seen. He said he's gonna look into it
The following users liked this post:
KatabaticSaint (02-16-2012)
Old 02-16-2012, 02:57 PM
  #39  
Senior Moderator
Thread Starter
 
fsttyms1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Appleton WI
Age: 49
Posts: 81,383
Received 3,063 Likes on 2,119 Posts
Originally Posted by KatabaticSaint
Any Progress with the Vt's Fstty?
Not yet. Still working on motor and with the new baby time isnt something i have yet. Soon though
The following users liked this post:
KatabaticSaint (02-16-2012)
Old 02-16-2012, 04:45 PM
  #40  
Bonki' Ehrite!
iTrader: (2)
 
ANC297's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Boca Raton Fl, Mooresville NC
Age: 31
Posts: 2,307
Received 17 Likes on 16 Posts
If anyone decides to try this design, I can help with the math if needed.
The following users liked this post:
KatabaticSaint (02-16-2012)
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
DerrickW
3G TL Performance Parts & Modifications
9
11-15-2015 05:52 PM
joflewbyu2
5G TLX (2015-2020)
139
10-08-2015 11:16 AM
kb1rl
2G RL Audio, Bluetooth, Electronics & Navigation
5
09-30-2015 10:17 AM
prbori
3G TL Problems & Fixes
1
09-27-2015 01:37 AM
ivan06106
Car Parts for Sale
0
09-26-2015 04:38 PM



Quick Reply: Exhaust Drone



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:54 PM.