Exhaust Drone
#1
Senior Moderator
Thread Starter
Exhaust Drone
Exhaust Drone. So i have been thinking about it and trying to get rid of the drone (while minimal with my setup) while allowing it to be louder than it is. Research has come up with the "J" pipe. Its a length of pipe designed to cancel out certain frequencies while not affecting performance. Something like this would be great for us as Drone is the biggest issue with our cars and exhausts.. Now we need someone to figure out the math and make some "J" pipes..
http://solo-performance.com/performance-exhaust-kits
This is an example of it from a Camaro
Info i have found on line
J-pipes do more than dampen the sound. They elliminate it. Basically, since the J-pipes are sealed, consider them a "high pressure" area.
Let me back up a little bit here. Exhaust gasses are racing (excitedly) out to the end of your exhaust tips so they can reach the air, where the pressure is lower than where they came from (The combustion chamber and various exhaust components, actually!) ... so Exhaust gasses want to "get out" to an area of low pressure. Got it?
So since the J-pipes are sealed, no real "exhaust gasses" ever get into the J-pipes to begin with. To the exhaust gasses, the J-pipes are simply another wall that is not an option to exit from.
Sound waves are completely different. Sound waves can travel through just about anything... water, metal, etc. Sound waves are a byproduct of combustion engines. If you've ever heard "open headers" like on race cars or demo derby cars, you know what everything "really sounds like" right out of the combustion process. Normal factory stock exhaust systems are usually over-engineered to appease the 'transportation' type of person who does not like hearing engine noises. This is why enthusiasts upgrade to aftermarket exhaust components.
Drone is usually solved by a nearly silent stock exhaust system (over-engineered) ... and drone is the uncomfortable level of soundwaves, as they reverberate not only in the cabin but also in your eardrums.
What J-pipes do is allow the soundwaves to enter into the "mouth" of the J-pipes, and if you remember cosine/sine graphs from math class, you know what sound waves generally look like. Now the sound waves are inside this capped "tube" ... bouncing off each side in a certain pattern (Hertz rating) ... then BAM. they hit that cap at the end of the J-pipe. Now those sound waves are reflected in the exact opposite direction, in exactly the inverse wavelength pattern (effectively cancelling out that calculated soundwave pattern) and then at the "mouth" of the J-pipe, they safely exit back into the exhaust stream and out the rear of the car, now the inverse of what they were when they entered the J-pipe. The magic happens when the two inverses collide, within the J-pipe itself. This actually elliminates the sound that was calculated (or in other words, the exact overall length that you made the J-pipe).
If your calculation is wrong, you will not elliminate the sound.
This is completely different than "dampering" the metal to make the vibrations a different frequency, like you seemed to have suggested. While that works in some applications, the source of this drone is the engine itself, with it's specific engine harmonics. As soon as that stock exhaust system is replaced with a "performance" exhaust system, you get the nice rumble of a freer flowing exhaust system, however, now those engine harmonic traits (drone in certain RPM and engine load combination conditions) show their ugly head. J-pipes to the rescue!
http://solo-performance.com/performance-exhaust-kits
This is an example of it from a Camaro
Info i have found on line
J-pipes do more than dampen the sound. They elliminate it. Basically, since the J-pipes are sealed, consider them a "high pressure" area.
Let me back up a little bit here. Exhaust gasses are racing (excitedly) out to the end of your exhaust tips so they can reach the air, where the pressure is lower than where they came from (The combustion chamber and various exhaust components, actually!) ... so Exhaust gasses want to "get out" to an area of low pressure. Got it?
So since the J-pipes are sealed, no real "exhaust gasses" ever get into the J-pipes to begin with. To the exhaust gasses, the J-pipes are simply another wall that is not an option to exit from.
Sound waves are completely different. Sound waves can travel through just about anything... water, metal, etc. Sound waves are a byproduct of combustion engines. If you've ever heard "open headers" like on race cars or demo derby cars, you know what everything "really sounds like" right out of the combustion process. Normal factory stock exhaust systems are usually over-engineered to appease the 'transportation' type of person who does not like hearing engine noises. This is why enthusiasts upgrade to aftermarket exhaust components.
Drone is usually solved by a nearly silent stock exhaust system (over-engineered) ... and drone is the uncomfortable level of soundwaves, as they reverberate not only in the cabin but also in your eardrums.
What J-pipes do is allow the soundwaves to enter into the "mouth" of the J-pipes, and if you remember cosine/sine graphs from math class, you know what sound waves generally look like. Now the sound waves are inside this capped "tube" ... bouncing off each side in a certain pattern (Hertz rating) ... then BAM. they hit that cap at the end of the J-pipe. Now those sound waves are reflected in the exact opposite direction, in exactly the inverse wavelength pattern (effectively cancelling out that calculated soundwave pattern) and then at the "mouth" of the J-pipe, they safely exit back into the exhaust stream and out the rear of the car, now the inverse of what they were when they entered the J-pipe. The magic happens when the two inverses collide, within the J-pipe itself. This actually elliminates the sound that was calculated (or in other words, the exact overall length that you made the J-pipe).
If your calculation is wrong, you will not elliminate the sound.
This is completely different than "dampering" the metal to make the vibrations a different frequency, like you seemed to have suggested. While that works in some applications, the source of this drone is the engine itself, with it's specific engine harmonics. As soon as that stock exhaust system is replaced with a "performance" exhaust system, you get the nice rumble of a freer flowing exhaust system, however, now those engine harmonic traits (drone in certain RPM and engine load combination conditions) show their ugly head. J-pipes to the rescue!
Simply put, the formula for determining the length of a Helmholtz chamber used to knock out a drone frequency is:
1100 feet/second (roughly the speed of sound) divided by the target frequency you're trying to eliminate (in cycles/second) gives a full wavelength in feet per cycle. Divide this number by 4 to get a quarter wavelength (a much more convenient length to work with). Finally, multiply this wavelength by 12 to get the chamber length in inches.
Tap this length of pipe into the exhaust tube, making sure the other end of the pipe is capped off, and you have a Helmholtz chamber that takes the annoying frequency and bounces it back into the flow 180 degrees out of phase, knocking it out. The results: no more drone.
1100 feet/second (roughly the speed of sound) divided by the target frequency you're trying to eliminate (in cycles/second) gives a full wavelength in feet per cycle. Divide this number by 4 to get a quarter wavelength (a much more convenient length to work with). Finally, multiply this wavelength by 12 to get the chamber length in inches.
Tap this length of pipe into the exhaust tube, making sure the other end of the pipe is capped off, and you have a Helmholtz chamber that takes the annoying frequency and bounces it back into the flow 180 degrees out of phase, knocking it out. The results: no more drone.
#2
Senior Moderator
Thread Starter
Discuss
#3
2003 TL-p
i like the idea, for those who have taken math class, just think of sin/cos wave graphs canceling each other out. Trying to replicate the example you posted from the camaro might be worth a shot, if you guess the pipe lengths right. we have enough room in the rear for that, also i think its similar to the g35's set up. let us know if you do any experimentation, good luck
#7
Senior Moderator
Thread Starter
I think its something with these motors that need to be looked into more. I think we could have great sounding exhaust without the drone.
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#8
Senior Moderator
Thread Starter
All it would take is a cap made and one could just slowly lop off a little pipe at a time and see how they like the result until they got the correct/perfect length
#9
I like this. Its a little more elegant than cutouts and plus one of the reasons I haven't messed with my exhaust yet is the drone and rasp and if a j pipe could be manufactured to work I could finally build a custom exhaust that sounds like a G35 but louder... I have a friend who works in an exhaust shop ill see if he thinks it can be done.
#11
Won't be easy but if it's black might be less noticeable
#12
Unregistered Member
iTrader: (2)
It looks like the idea is to build interference/destructive sound waves. Don't think like sin/cos, because sound waves move back and forth, not up and down.
It would be expensive research to find the best point at which the sound cancels well. Of course the frequency of the sound matters too. I'll look into this a little later, maybe tomorrow.
It would be expensive research to find the best point at which the sound cancels well. Of course the frequency of the sound matters too. I'll look into this a little later, maybe tomorrow.
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phee (10-29-2011)
#14
Senior Moderator
Thread Starter
You could do something like this
Last edited by fsttyms1; 10-18-2011 at 07:36 AM.
#15
Senior Moderator
Thread Starter
Id be half tempted to try and modify a set of G8 pipes like above
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KatabaticSaint (10-20-2011)
#17
6G TLX-S
If the J-pipe cancels out exhaust drone at some frequencies, drone at other frequencies may suddenly appear because the new addition J-pipe will now resonate at different frequencies than the previous pipe it has replaced with.
#18
Senior Moderator
Thread Starter
Its designed to cancel out the low annoying ones. Listen to the in car vids of the G8. You cant hear the exhaust while cruising, when he jumps on it though you can hear the bark and the sound outside the car is great(of course with a V8). I think we could achieve something similar with a little playing. When i bypass my comptechs with my inserts the sound is great, at 3k its almost exotic sounding while cruising. BUT at 2k-2500 its very very annoying.
#22
Senior Moderator
Thread Starter
#23
Senior Moderator
Thread Starter
Probably look much better as you wouldnt have those 2 large canisters hanging there
#24
kill you till you die
#25
Registered Nonmember
Are you sure it's that high? That would equate to a length of about 1.5". Quickly browsing another forum one guy claims the drone resonance occurs at 115 Hz in the G8 which yields a pipe length of 29" which seems similar to the helmholtz chambers others are making.
#26
Senior Moderator
Thread Starter
Are you sure it's that high? That would equate to a length of about 1.5". Quickly browsing another forum one guy claims the drone resonance occurs at 115 Hz in the G8 which yields a pipe length of 29" which seems similar to the helmholtz chambers others are making.
#27
6G TLX-S
#28
Senior Moderator
Thread Starter
For the average driver i doubt you would ever notice any loss. For me and my new 3.5/6 motor im looking for every ounce of top end power possible. When i put in my inserts that bypass the comptechs baffling you can feel the gain in upper rpm power. But like said above the drone isnt something fun to live with.
#31
may sound dumb, but anyone just put in a series of resonators or a couple of 24"ers. my 97 grand prix gtp with 3.8l v6 i sold recently had some pretty serious drone. alot of guys complained about it also. they cut the stock res and mid pipe and put 2 24" resonators or 3 16" ones, took away the low drone at lower cruising rpms. i had flowmaster 40 series baffeled mufflers with stock res and ebay headers and i really like the sound of it and didnt mind the drone too much. not a v8 with headers and x pipe but not bad for a v6. when i get some better cash flow i am going to upgrade the exhaust for sure on my tl, cant even hear it. going to be looking for a nice muscular sound trying to stay away from the ricer sound.
#32
Senior Moderator
Thread Starter
Just saw Dynomax makes these mufflers with the flap inside that opens and closes.
http://www.dynomax.com/mufflers.php?muffler=vt
http://www.dynomax.com/mufflers.php?muffler=vt
#33
I got the Shifts
iTrader: (5)
Step one would be to take a wind shielded cardioid condensor microphone and record the exhaust at the rpm range that creates the drone (no higher, no lower)
Pop the audio file into a program with any type of spectrum analyzer and adjust high/low pass until the drone is isolated. Play the sound through a speaker into your exhaust and tweak the piping to eliminate the drone.
Pop the audio file into a program with any type of spectrum analyzer and adjust high/low pass until the drone is isolated. Play the sound through a speaker into your exhaust and tweak the piping to eliminate the drone.
#35
Senior Moderator
Thread Starter
Im going to try the Dynomax VT mufflers and see how they do.
#36
Haha fstty you beat me to it i saw a commercial last night for the vt's and was just about to mention them. I was a little to drunk to type last night...
#37
Any Progress with the Vt's Fstty?
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KatabaticSaint (02-16-2012)
#39
Senior Moderator
Thread Starter
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KatabaticSaint (02-16-2012)
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KatabaticSaint (02-16-2012)
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