RUF87

Okay - I heard several people going back and forth on whether leaving it in D5 is just as
good as SS, or even manually shifting it from D1 to D2.

Well I had to try it out for myself and see if there is any difference. My TLS is not
modified in any way and has 2000 miles on it.

The weather was 82 with humidity at 76% and winds coming at me around 15MPH. The road was straight and fairly flat.

I did two passes in each mode with VSA on and two with VSA off. A total of 12 passes.
In between each pass I allowed the engine to cool off a bit. I also power braked at
2500RPM for each run. The only other variable was the fact that the D5 and SS modes shifts from 1st to 2nd occure automatically around 6700RPM on my TLS. On the D1 manual mode tests I shifted at 7000RPM. Why? Because it was still pulling, and it felt and sounded strong. :-)

The method of timing I used was a stop watch that I started when I launched the car and
stopped it when the needle hit 60MPH. Again, I know it's not the perfect test of what the TLS will really do 0-60 in each mode. But it will give a decent idea of whether it makes any difference in what shift mode you use. I also had a 1/2 a tank of gas when I started the test. Okay okay, so I may have been 1 gallon or so lighter by the 12th run, but not a significant factor here.

So what happened? Well I found that my TLS didn't quite reproduce the Motor Trend
numbers. Didn't figure it would, but it was a little bit slower than I would have guessed.

Anyway, enough stalling right? Well here we go.

D5 Auto Mode (Just leaving it in D5)
VSA On: 7.47 (average of two runs)
VSA Off: 7.44 (average of two runs)

SS Mode (Sport Shift Mode)
VSA On: 7.17 (average of two runs)
VSA Off: 7.15 (average of two runs)

D1 Manual Mode (Manual shift from D1 to D2)
VSA On: 6.99 (average of two runs)
VSA Off: 7.05 (average of two runs)

Based on these results using D1 manual mode was consistently faster. However, notice
that VSA off runs were faster with the exception of the Manual mode. Read on to find out why I think that is so.

Okay, now what happened and why do I think so. Again, this was my test and I did the
best I could to be very consistent.

In D5 mode with the VSA on, the car seemed to "bog" down off the line and then pick up
speed. With the VSA off there was less of a bog, but still a slow feeling start.

In SS mode with VSA on the bog seemed less, but the shift to 2nd happens a few 100RPM before redline. With VSA off, there was some tire spin and I'm sure it cost a couple of 10ths on the time.

In D1 mode with VSA on, there was no noticeable bog and a lively launch with minimal tire spin. This mode resulted in a best time of the trial, 6.97. With VSA off, well I experienced a fair amount of tire spin and even some pulling of the front end to the side due to the tire spin.

So why was VSA off yielding slower times in D1 manual mode? I suspect that because the wheel spin was pretty strong and that amount of traction loss probably cost me around 2-3 10ths of a second.

So my bet is that a set of stickier tires and runnig in D1 Manual mode could result in runs of 6.6 to 6.7. Of course this is for my TLS and we know that there may be some faster ones out there, and slower ones too. ;-)

Anyway, go do your own tests and report back.
And have fun. I did. :-)

RUF

happy

Nice work Ruf! Times are indeed slower than advertised. How can you make the stock TLS go any faster than what you did? You were punching it to red line in every gear. Only other major factor is your measurement method. How did you time the 0-60? Some other factors I can think of are driver's weight (are you over 300 lbs?), 1/2 full gas tank, outside temperature, road condition (surface traction and grade), etc...

Does anyone else have similar test runs with modified TL or Type S?

neojin

Not a TL-S owner (yet), but do have some input.

What about the A/C? Did you try turning it off, and turning the heater on to allow some of the hot air to enter into the cabin and not the engine?

I'm also thinking temperature would have some factor. I mean 82 is pretty hot. I would try at night or early morning (so basically 72 degrees).

Any other thoughts?

neojin

bombs

manual stopwatch measurements as you performed are going to have atleast 0.2seconds variance each time. Each actually negates most of the differences you see, although the general trend for SS being faster may be correct. Recall it shifts about 10% faster. Speedometers are not exactly accurate either: +/- 3 to 5 mph is not uncommon. As your speedo been calibrated. If you are actually recording times to 62mph, the approximate times you have a quite reasonable. Find someone that has a Gtech and repeat the tests for a more accurate assessment.

EricL

The air cuts out at WOT (Wide open throttle).

Stop watches are really hard to work

A full tank weighs about 100lbs more than empty.

Low temps really help times. The air is much denser. Also, high humidity is a killer.


Future power wining tips:

Get the lightest 17" wheels you can buy -- it makes an amazing difference.

Go on a Jenny Craig diet or get your 100 lb petite wife to drive the car at the track.

Get sticky tires to hook up the power with VSA off.

The 7000+ shifts are correct, and even more correct with headers and CAI. Just watch the high shifts when after adding the headers, light wheels, and CAI -- the revs move up so quickly, that I have to shift at about 7000 to not get the rev limiter to smack me in SS mode.

bombs

stopwatch measuring system will have variations of 0.2seconds. Speedometers are commonly off by 2 to 4 mph. Factor both together and it explains your less than desired results. You may be running to 62mph and not know it. Find someone with a GTECH and repeat the tests.

EricL

You nailed it -- a guy tested the CLS speedo and an indicated 60 MPH was actualy 58 MPH.

So, it would have worked in his favor on this particular CLS (I don't know about the speedo error in the TLS). It is just very hard to work the stopwatch.

A note about GTECH. They are a tool and can be used or abused. Some of the folks over at "our" CLS forum hold them in very low regard, others have gotten good results vs. the track.

If you don't calibrate the unit -- make sure it is level and dead ahead, you will get screwy readings.

The other thing you want to do, is make sure that the runs are done in both directions. If the reading is too far off in both directions, find a site with less tilt/grade.
The GTECH will "integrate" in the gravity and the squat of the car on launch will not cancel out. I don't want to put everyone to sleep for a thousand years.

The unit is worthy when used carefully.

Some people have complained that they have used 3 units (from friends) on 4 different runs and all got different results from all of them.

I have an answer for this (a pre-emptive strike) -- look at the 1/4 mile results of most non-pro drivers and they are all over the map from run to run. Enough said, the more runs the better.

Also, be sure to record:

Temp.
Amount of gas in car(1/8, 1/4, full tank)
Humidity (if you know it)
Your weight or number of passengers.


(Try throwing 3 200 lb bags of cement in the car, and tell me the car is running fast -- I want to hear this one.)

RUF87

Okay folks. Remember that the real purpose of the test was to see whick mode of shifting resulted in better times.

I knew that the actual 0-60 times would not be an exact science for several reason. Many of which were stated such as stop watch timing errors, speedo error, weather conditions, the cars condition, driver weights, and yes even drive skill. ;-)

So regardless of whether the 0-60 times are really reflective of the TLS or not. The test did prove to me that I can get better times using the D1 Manual mode with VSA on. Until I can get better tires that is.

As for some of the other details that were asked about. Well, the A/C was off and I weight about 162lbs. There were no other "baggage" items in the car and all the windows were up.

I believe that I covered the other questions such as weather in the original post. Another one that I can think of that wasn't asked was altitude. I'm not sure, but less than 1000' but more than 200'.

Let's hear from someone who has the right (or better) tools to do some actual real life 0-60 runs. :-)

RUF87

I might normally agree with this view if I was reading someone elses test results and didn't know how they did the test.

Since I did the test and I know what the variables are, I'm certain of the test result outcome showing that D1 Manual mode will more consistently results in better 0-60 runs. Since I ran each mode two times to check for the amount of variance between each run.

The average variance between each run was minimal. For D1 and SS modes with VSA On the variance was only 2 10ths. For D5, D1 and SS modes with VSA off the variance was 3 10ths. The only exception was D5 mode with VSA on which had a variance of 8 10ths between the two runs. Not sure why, but as I stated there was a "bog" of sorts in this mode and that is enough to cause a greater variance in times.

Again, I wanted to see which shifting mode produced the best times for me. So if I'm going to engage another driver, I'll be using D1 with VSA on. Until I get some better rubber. :-)

RUF87

For you guys that want the detailed times for each run, here they are.

D5 Auto Mode (Just leaving it in D5)
VSA On: Fastest - 7.43 / Slowest 7.51
VSA Off: Fastest - 7.42 / Slowest 7.45

SS Mode (Sport Shift Mode)
VSA On: Fastest - 7.16 / Slowest 7.18
VSA Off: Fastest - 7.14 / Slowest 7.17

D1 Manual Mode (Manual shift from D1 to D2)
VSA On: Fastest - 6.98 / Slowest 7.01
VSA Off: Fastest - 7.04 / Slowest 7.07

Again notice the degree of consistency between each specific shift mode.

I hope this means that I'm a more consistent racer than a tester. But I should be since I used to drag race. I was always very consistent on my reaction times and runs. Although I did make a mistake once and increased how quickly the transmission locked up and smoked the tires 1/3 of the track. And of course it was in the semifinal round. :-(

ZodiakTL

in my experience with the regular 00TL the D4 method was always slightly faster then SS. I havnt really done ne testing like that with TypeS because i havnt come up against any cars that can just beat me by inches, so theres no point. And until i go to the track with acurate times, there's no reason to push the car for that supposed extra .1sec. However all this info is useful for people who can't decide between SS and Auto.

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'02 Nighthawk TL-S
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Comptech Springs / Comptech Headers / Mille Miglia Action 17x8 Rims with Bridgestone Potenza RE730's 235/45/17 tires
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Alpine CVA-1005 Head Unit / Alpine CDA-7863 CD Player / Alpine G320 EQ / Alpine DVA-5205 DVD / Alpine NVE-N851A Navi / JL Audio XR653-CS 3-Way comps for the front powered by a bridged Alpine MRV-F407 amp / Boston Acoustics 5.5 ProSeries 2-Way comps for the rear powered by Alpine MRV-1002 amp / Dual 10" JL Audio W-6 sub powered by Alpine MRV-1005 amp / Two Alpine CHA-1214 CD Changers / 20% Tint all-around

__________________
'00 Nighthawk TL
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Aem Short Ram / Comptech Sway Bars / Comptech Springs / Cross-Drilled Rotors / Pirelli SP7000 Tires / 35% Tint all-around
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Pics of my TL and Fun/Crazy Pics

PeterUbers

iTrader: (1)

If someone doesn't have a "VTEC-GTECH" or another type of controlled system to test the 0-60mph stat (as in this case), my suggestion is to stick w/ the stopwatch. However, after testing the TL-S .. go get into another fairly quick car if you have access to it, and conduct the same test using the stopwatch method, clickin' in at WOT, and clickin' out at 60mph. Then, take both sets of data, TL-S and XX-Car and compare them to the suggested magazine times C&D, MT, R&T supposedly achieved. You'd be surprised what will result.

I think most people will understand just how much removing "ideal" conditions costs these precious performance stats that some use to glorify their autos. The GTP and Buick Regal GS are supposed to achieve 6.3 seconds at best 0-60mph .. it's funny, my buddy can't get his past my TL-S to 90mph. Conditions are key, I totally agree w/ EricL:

Ideal conditions for any engine, but especially for our automatic, V6 that produces most of its power up high on the PB, and has relatively low peak torque (for drag racing):

- less than 60 degrees, low humidity (as mentioned
- Good road conditions
- 1 light driver
- near empty gas tank
- VSA off, light brake torquing
- RXN Time ~= .5->.65
- The D1-2-3 shift method
- I'd say better tires here, but we're talking about stock, since that's what MT used to get 6.28seconds for their TL-S run

But come on people -- how often are we IN these conditions when that Z28 or that Mustang pulls up to us on the road late at night, hehe, when we JUST filled the gas tank on the way home? It's happened to me many times. Also, in my experience, brake-torquing can work against your ET sometimes, it all depends on where the tach ends up after you let off the brake -- that's why launching is more exact in a manual trannied automobile (though still a task requiring some mastery).

As a side-note, always remember that whatever conditions work against your TL-S (temp, humid., road cond.) they also work against whoever you're up against.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">[This message has been edited by PeterUbers on June 07, 2001 @ ]</font>

RUF87

[QUOTE]Originally posted by PeterUbers: -
I think most people will understand just how much removing "ideal" conditions costs these precious performance stats that some use to glorify their autos. The GTP and Buick Regal GS are supposed to achieve 6.3 seconds at best 0-60mph .. it's funny, my buddy can't get his past my TL-S to 90mph. Conditions are key, I totally agree w/ EricL:

Good point Peter.

Just to clarify again in case there is a misunderstanding here. The test I ran was not to see what the TL-S' 0-60 times are. If that was the case then I would agree with most of the posts. That's why I even stated in my original post that this was not a perfect test.

The test was to see which of the shifting modes results in better times. Based on a reasonable set of criteria I found that there is a difference. Whether or not that wins you races is not a certainty. You can still screw up in some other part of the race process and there by cancelling out any advantage your may have gained.

If it's worth racing against, it's worth winning the race. So use every advantage that you have and do your best. If you don't someone, or me, will beat you. ;-)

Consider the case where I raced a M3 Roadster (Z3 with M Badge). We took off from 50 and went to 110-115 or so. Technically on paper the M3 Roadster should have beaten me. But perhaps because I was getting into the peak of my powerband (4700RPM) and maybe he was wasn't. Just enough of an advantage to pull him by 1/2 car length or so. Who know what else he may have done wrong, but the end result was a kill.

Got that one framed! :->

RUF87

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ZodiakTL:
i havnt come up against any cars that can just beat me by inches, so theres no point. And until i go to the track with acurate times, there's no reason to push the car for that supposed extra .1sec.

Actually the difference can be as much as .5 seconds. And even just a few 10ths of a second add up in the end. Think about how much time it takes to close a .5 second gap at 60MPH. If I've got you by 1/2 a car length at 60MPH you are going to need several seconds to close that gap. Unless you have a real big HP advantage.

I used to beat "technically" faster cars just because I could get a 1/2 to 1 car length jump early on. And like wise, with my bad old Malibu SS I would have to catch them if I lost too much traction off the line. I even got beat by a VW because I lost too much traction and could catch him before the end of the track. So watch out for VW bugs, they can be really fast, especially off the line.
I know what I'm talking about because I used to drag race alot. And not just street, but actual competition at the local drag strips.

Anyway, just remember that a couple to a few 10ths are there if you ever need it. But if you're already getting beat, then it's too late to use it.

RAdams

Just to add some confusion... my times at the track in my 2000 TL were consistently .2 seconds quicker when I used SS to hold 2nd gear until just before the limiter versus just leaving it in D5.

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2000 WDP 3.2TL non-NAV
AEM CAI w/bypass, Comptech header