samkws

210hp and 5spd auto is more than enough for a luxury car...but acura and infiniti is pushing it to the higher standard with more power...that makes the silky smooth lexus falling behind...also it is an aging design...came out 10 yrs ago...but still one of the world's best V6 in quietness and smoothness...no doubt...

don't see toyota will add more displacement on their engines in a couple yrs...

Guest

HP is not the be-all and end-all, as a 325 is pretty quick with only 184hp, and a Subaru WRX will smoke almost all cars with only 225hp. Lexus chose to keep the same engine, tweaked it and made it ULEV and quieter, and redesigned the interior to make it very luxurious for $37k. There is no ES300 Type S, and they could care less, they'll still sell alot of them regardless. I think it rides fantastic.

gohawks63

Correct on all points. Lexus is not marketing the ES300 as a "performance sedan". It's all about luxury, and in true Lexus fashion, it hits a home run.

I just can't get used to that front end though.

Guest

Amen, I think Infiniti's "be everything to everyone" approach fails overall because they tend to come up short in one aspect or another, sometimes on all of them. I say, do one thing and do it right, not try to capture every market with one product.

1SICKLEX

It is VERY apparant some of ya'll DON'T KNOW SQUAT about cars.
Anybody remember the 1st generation TL, or a Vigor. No (NO ONE DOES). Don't foget your roots. The ES 300 stopped PRETENDING to be a sports sedan back in 1994. Lexus dropped the manual and decided the ES 300 is about total isolation and luxury.

There is a 1992 ES 300 manual in the garage that has EVEN build quality as your 2003 TL.
Electrolumiscent gauges check
REAL WOOD check
8 speaker 180watt Pioneer stereo check
189,000 miles and still runs like new check
CAR and Driver 10 best check
The entry level LUXURY car standard check
The sales leader in the segment (until Acura's cost cutting effort, the 27k TL) check

ES 300 is for cushy comfort (that is why it has been selling over 5k copies ugly or not) and people RECOGNIZE it's reputation.

So ES 300 is not for you (or me for the matter) but say "Oh it only has 210 hp".

WHY IN THE HECK WOULD ANYBODY WANT A 290 hp ES 300??????????

MB-telecom

Why waste the extra dough on a new ES300 when you could have an Avalon or a Camry and save THOUSANDS? Oops...I forgot... Toyota isn't the 'same' brand as Lexus...

210 HP is weak relative to the competition. That is anemic. The bar has been raised. Will Lexus follow suit? The Acura RL is suffering in the same way.

Guest

Oh man, you're gonna fry for this one 1Sick. Oh, btw, did you mean over 50k instead of 5k ? I do have to admit that I was surprised that the ES300 didn't get a HP increase, and although the TL hasn't either, only 15hp separates them.

gohawks63

I tend to agree with you here. Acura's success in the late '80s was based on creating an identity around performance, remember "Precision Crafted Performance"? Then Acura wanted to compete with Lexus from the luxury perspective, remember the God awful and arrogant tag line "Some things are worth the price"?

Acura's turn around came when they returned to their roots in '99 by offering class leading performance with a splash of luxury and a great price. They've continued on that road with the RSX.

I owned a Vigor for close to eight years, and it's true that it was apparant that Acura didn't know what it wanted that car to be.

It had good performance, but not enough to be considered a "performance" sedan. It lacked the interior space to be considered seriously as a family car, and while it was well built, it didn't have the refinement that would allow it to be a serious contender with the ES300.

For me, single at the time, it was a sporty car that had four doors for the occasional times I'd carry passengers. It's reliability was dead solid, and because of deep discounts, I got it for a steal.

Guest

Well, for starters, an Avalon looks nothing like an ES, and although the Camry and ES are strikingly similiar, the ES offers more refinement (i.e. real wood, nicer leather, quieter ride, etc). You'll also get the same argument likewise from Accord owners or even Mazima owners too MB, and personally (save for the ES) I think Lexus has done a great job of differentiating itself from Toyota.

91M5

You guys are aware you are discussing the relative traits of a Camry and ES300 right? Maybe I should let all the 45 year hold housewives know what's up so they can contribute their first-hand experience.

MB-telecom

The Honda engine can't even come anywhere near the TL-S's engine. That is why I bought the TL-S over the Accord. It isn't even close in that department. I wouldn't however buy the TL over the Accord for example; I would buy the Accord instead.

The engines in the Camry, Avalon and E300 are all very, very similar in HP. torque and overall peformance. The Avalon is also every bit as refined and quiet as the ES300. The Avalon is every bit as much car as the ES300 only for thousands less. You can also get a great deal on Avalons now.

Monte TLS,MAX

I would agree that the Max/I35 are the most similiar, a GLE is very comparable to a I35 whereas the top of the line Camry vs. the ES their is more differences this is to be said about the Tl and Accord as well. The Max is still sort of in a class on its own do you guys remember back in the late 80's and 90's when it was always Max against Cressida, and that they are what lead to the higher end and level of luxury in japenese cars today.

samkws

avalon is different...it is awful large...a japanese buick lesabre..
they rated as LARGE size car....

camry and ES...this time they have more difference than last time...as interior is totally different...even in mechnical...

camry has 192hp V6 and 4spd auto

ES 300 has 210hp V6 with VVT-i and 5spd auto

lexus would have the edge with more low end torque coz it has VVT-i and the 5spd reallie helps on the mid-range passing...

1SICKLEX

Well 91M5, those housewives are HAPPY with 185hp, then 188hp then 210 hp. VERY HAPPY.

BTW to the Vigors credit, have ya'll looked at the front fenders of that car. Look at how the fender BULGES over the front wheels, Honda did this back in what 1993.

Now look at damn near EVERY car and those same wheel arches over the wheels......

AC

Ahhh now I get it, you mean kinda like

"Why wast the extra dough on a new TL when you could have an Accordand save THOUSANDS? Oops...I forgot...Acura isn't the 'same' brand as Honda..."

Is that wha you kinda meant?

The last time I checked your 3.2 shares a lot of common parts as the 3.0 Litre Accord. How do I know? Well, it turns out that the same resonator box for my TL was the same part number as the Accords...the list goes on and on.

The ES is a superb car, yes it has 210HP or whatever, but the interior is second to none in its class.

The TypeS is a screamer no doubt, but don't make it sound like it's some Bentley of entry luxo car. Give props where it's due. I don't like the exterior of the new ES but love the interior. I bought my father in law a 01 ES300 and the car is great for the $31,400 I paid for it. To him it's the best car out there. (same buy that said my X5 4.4i's power was almost as good as his ES...LOL)

city001

It's all very basic guys...

the REASON...why BMW, AUDI has more electrical problems...cause it's got all sorts of electrical gadget all over the car!!!...

that's one main reason why the car breaks down so much and SO EXPENSIVE to replace..

with my sister's 94 honda accord...the seats r not electronically controlled ... she never had problem with the seats can't move...malfunction...but

with my younger sis's 95 maxima which has auto seats...it malfunctioned on her 2 times...

my dad's Benz malfunction like for god knows how many times...

that's why i tried to stay away from Bimmers..

city

gohawks63

Actually it was mid '91 ('92 model year). My mom still has a '92 Vigor. I loved that about that car. It did look very muscular and I got compliments on it up until the day I traded it in.

Of course it was immaculate!

Guest

But wait, what about the argument that a TLS has just as many if not MORE options (gadgets) for less money ?? If that is the case then a TLS is just as susceptible to electrical failure, OR are you implying that the mechanical quality is better in Acuras over BMW/Audi et al. ?

iNteGraz92

i agree because the new ES300 is UGLY!!!!!
but the interior is VERY NICE

MB-telecom

I disagree. The Acura TL-S IS the Bentley of entry level luxury cars. Look at the combination of 'luxury', quality AND performance that you can get for $31K - $33K; it is unsurpassed for the money/vlaue.

You will get a smoother ride in the NEW ES300 and the interior may be (that itself is debatable) more refined than the TL-S (debatable again), but the performance that you get for the money is just not there. Lexus should have anted up when they re-designed the ES300. I wouldn't buy any car in this day and age for $37K - $39k that had only 210 HP. Whether or not one cares about performance, oneu should get more than just 210 HP when spending nearly $40K on an ES300.

The Avalon may be considered a different class of car, but it is very, very similar to the ES300 except in price of course

The bottomline here is that some prefer the ES300 or Lexus in general and the same goes for the Acura fans.

Guest

Well, what about a Legend, that had under 210hp for mid-thirties ? Why must you decide what Lexus targets for it's market ? They sell, and will continue to sell tons of them regardless of hp ratings. What if my perception was that no one should pay $32k for a car and get fake wood, guess what, that would eliminate the TL/TLS. There is no set bar that all cars adhere to, each tries to make their mark. And yes, the ES/TLS interior issue may be debatable, but I really don't see where you could really compare the 2, you'll see why you're spending almost $6k more, the leather is topnotch, the wood is real and it's everywhere, and just the feel of everything, the buttons, the dash, the creases, everything is pretty luxurious. Now if they put THAT interior in the TLS

Mr Hyde

Um yeah. Audis and BMW's are known for their electrics being one of their major nuisances.

It would probably be less than a 6k difference. For that $6k difference the interior had better be much better(which it is) because the premium didnt go into significant gains in handling, power or into a significant difference in amenities did it? For that $6k you had better get something. I was really suprised about the power though. I thought a bump in power for the all new ES was as good as a guarantee. The I is up to 255, The TL is 225 with an all new car one year away while the current S is already 260.

But in the end its a mute point really, the market has shifted for the ES300. They are going straight for pure comfort. Its way too sedate for me, but If I was 35-40 years older and/or female, maybe Id get one.

MB-telecom

TedC - Read my last post a little more closely. You mis-quoted me and took my statement out of context. I said: 'I wouldn't buy any car in this day and age for $37K - $39k that had only 210 HP.' What was the last year for the Legend? I am talking about 2002 and 2003, not 1995 when the Legend was last produced. The Legend is two, almost three generations ago for Acura.

Like I also said before : 'The bottomline here is that some prefer the ES300 or Lexus in general and the same goes for the Acura fans.'

BLEXV6

Goaub, I too had a Vigor (1994 GS), and it was black on black and I loved it, as did my wife. I also got it new for a steal. But the back seat was brutal and when the kids got bigger I had to get rid of it as the back seat was too small and the kids kept putting their dirty boots on the back of the seats. It drove me crazy.

gohawks63

Mine was a '93 White on Black GS. I really enjoyed that car, but you hit it on the head with the backseat. Brutal is a good word for it. I actually had to move up my seat so far to accommodate my 5 YEAR OLD, that it became uncomfortable to drive.

BLEXV6

Goaub, I love that song. When ever it comes on the radio, I just crank it. Despite the whining about the TL stereo system, it more than puts out to my satisfaction.

I saw AC/DC in concert many years ago, 20+, and Brian Johnson does not do it justice. Bon Scott was awesome on that one. That and Big Balls

gohawks63

Did you see the VH1 special on them. It was pretty good. Yeah AC/DC is great driving music IMO. The Back in Black album was HUGE during my Senior year of high school.

I remember a guy in my class bought a broken down old '67 GTO that year. It didn't even run, he had to push it home. He worked on it for 6 months day and night restoring it. One day we hear this car coming into the school parking lot that must of been running straight pipes. It WAS LOUD! Then around the corner comes this beautiful black on black '67 GTO. It was him. He pulls up to a group of us and there in gold lettering on the trunk it was "Back in Black".

It was mean looking and we thought he was sooooo coool.

High school !

BLEXV6

The music in our lives sure define how old we are. I am about you're age, 39, and I just loved the whole Back in Black Album, (many kids here don't know what an album even is). My kids, ages 9 and 12, only know cds and cassettes. BTW, when I saw AC/DC, the tour was For those about to Rock, We Solute you. Angus Young played like he was on acid. Oh the memories.

gohawks63

Yep, I have some great memories. I'm sure we're getting the from the young bucks on this board. I too will be 39 in a little over a week. It might as well be 50 here.

FLL Type-S

I saw them here in Ft. Lauderdale in concert last summer. My wife thought I was a crazy 40 year old trying to recapture my mispent youth. She may not have been that far off on that count.

Great concert though, and I got to smoke the first weed in about 10 years. Angus rocks!

asiankidd

with luxury car i dont think power especially hp is that much of an indicator...i think torque is the thing that deserves most of the credit.....like mercedes..they arent meant for high rpm power but for low end torque.....like the c32 amg has like 300 sum thing lb-ft at 3600 rpm but 95 percent of that torque is readily available at just 2000 rpm....now thats usable power right there

RUF87

Yep, and raw number are simply just that as well. :yack:

Remember, no two cars are identical off the production line. That's partly why you have variances. There are many other reasons as well.

My rule of thumb is any car with a time difference of .5sec or less is pretty much equal. Then it comes down to those variances, driver, maintenance etc.

So raw is as raw isn't.

RUF

RUF87

The same type of people that opt for the:

330i vs 325i
430MB vs 320MB
430ML vs 320ML
500SL vs 380SL

Shall I go on???

Yes one more . . .

GS400 vs GS300 or
GS430 vs GS400

So give me a break about why people buy these cars.

RUF

RUF87

That must be why I see more women driving GS400s than
I see driving GS300s.

Just quit before you dig an even deeper hole for yourself.

RUF

RUF87

Watch it good buddy . . .

I'm 41 and will likely never go for sedate. :yack:

Matter of fact, I'm looking for more performance and will consider reasonable mods. And I'm still hanging on to my classic 64 Malibu SS.

I'll just need to wear a neck brace though.

RUF

Guest

To be honest Ruf, although there is a little more torque in the 430, they both still produce 300hp, so most people don't cross-shop the two, one is new, the other is used, plain and simple.

Mr Hyde

You misread me, I said 40 years older, not old.

CH-TLS

Let's look at the numbers that really count (especially to the manufacturers): The number of units sold...

for 2001 sales year:
TL ~70,000 units
ES300 ~45,000 units
I30/35 ~36,000 units
3 series ~103,000 units (330 series 34,000 units)
A4 ~ 33,000 (estimated, don't have the full yr #, only the last 6 months)

Based on the TL/I30/BMW numbers, looks like those housewives are interested in a little "go-power" to go along with their cushy leather and wood. Less than 1 buyer in 5 is selecting an ES300. Almost 2 in 5 are selecting BMW 3 series (thus the target all mfgs put on the 3 series)

I like the new ES300 looks, but I'd never buy one because it's too slow for my $35K - The ES300 is a top-notch ride, but it's way underpowered - the TL-P, I30 and any model BMW will beat it in acceleration.

Now that the IS300 is in the product line, Lexus flat out said the ES is no longer about sporting performance, but the IS has some major flaws: it's very small (compared to TL, I35 and ES), and is RWD, which is a turn-off for many drivers in areas where it snows. (these flaws don't seem to hurt 3 series sales, though)

All Lexus needs to do is drop a 3.5 in the ES, and this discussion will end promptly - then they'll have a 1st class luxery sedan with performance similar to the "class leaders"

My $0.02

Guest

But to be honest CH, the IS wasn't brought out to compete with the TL, I35, etc. it competes with the 3-series (and rather well IMO), and AWD is the only real all-weather option, but until that happens, I myself would take a RWD sports vehicle over a FWD regardless of the climate.

CH-TLS

Agreed - The IS broadens the Lexus product line and allowed the ES to concentrate on luxury. With the addition of the 5 spd, it is now a legit BMW competitor (What were they thinking by releasing it without a standard tranny??? - what is Nissan thinking on the G35??)

That said, 210 hp is still at the bottom of the class, and for no good reason - Toyota has some of the finest engineering capabilities on the planet - it's not that they can't do a more powerful V6, it must be that they don't want to.

I honestly feel that my wife would have gotten the ES300 over the TLS if there wasn't such a difference in avail. power - her quote " this thing feels too slow"