Las Vegas TLS

How come so many car companies develop a new "Sports Sedans" to compete with the mighty BMW and come up short? Either looking at the 5-Series or the 3.

Look at the IS300, now come on!!, if you are going to attempt to do it, damn-it do it!! Don't start offf with a under powered 6 cylinder and an automatic. Start off with a fire breathing SC 6 with a 6-speed!! Dont watch the car magizines write articles where they take your car up against the BMW and loose.
There has got to be at least tem examples of this, the G35 and the GS430 and the SC430 and, there has to be another half a dozen. Do me a favor, drive the GS430 and than the 540i, 6-speed and you will think Lexus was your grandmas caddy.

Do you understand my gripe? Car company releases thier newest BMW fighter and sure enough doesn't quite reach the performance or handling or the BMW's. So close yet far and anoter year goes by and the BMW reigns supreme.

I guess for the last 5-10 years I am always dissapointed when I get excited about the new kid on the block and than He ends up fighting the bully and gets his ass handed back to him.

Maybe it is just me who sees this?

ZodiakTL

realistically, i think that the issue is having a bimmer fighter for a fraction of the price. noone is willing to step up and build a bimmer killer (which most companies can) at the same price as that same bimmer... cuz then people will not buy the new kid on the block. so while bmw is the standard u pay for it through the nose, while the technology they use is quite a bit older. all the car companies are trying to find a compromise between price/performance so that people could say "hey my GPX42 drives like a bmw, only a bit faster and cost me 10k less" that would make a bmw killer....

typeSmaximum

well, many mags have the G35 handling just as good, and just as fast give or take a tenth, yet is costs way less. BMW will not be the king forever, and if the rest of their cars start looking like the New 7 :yack: with the wack I-drive, may god help them, as they just lost one of their key points, great style.

ming 2.7T_RENAMED

The Audi S4 beat out an old version of the M3 in Car and Driver a few years back. That same year I think the A6 2.7T beat out the 528 in C&D.

BMW doesnt have the edge anymore, that they once held. Other brands are catching up and for less money. Getting real competetive out there and thats good for us - the consumer.

Las Vegas TLS

All these people have hit really valid points. I believe the fact still remains, not one Car Company yet has been able to develop a car that is $5-10k less and that beats the BMW. I am sure that along the way maybe a car or two have come close.
Not to say that the car magizines know every thing about cars, but has anyone actually read the articles and listened to them.... The BMW seems to win every time. This has been going on for the last 10 years or so. Keep in mind the BMW's are over priced. You would think between all those other car companies, someone could do it. At least equal the perfomance for $5k less. When I say performance I just dont mean straight line accelleration, I mean total package, 1/4, braking, cornering and even the all popular, feel. I guess the first time I drove a BMW it was a 1978' 320I. For an old car that things was built for performance. Has anyone ever driven one of the new M3's?? Scary performance!!

STi

i think this is in the wrong forum?? anyways here's my 2 cents

BMW has long combined luxury, and performance in neat, well-balanced packages, their cars handle very stable and is very confidence inspiring even at the cars' limits, but when you don't want to go fast, they're fuel-efficient, easy to live with cars that have high quality and workmanship

now, if other companies want to beat it, their car would cost the same or more, and when that happens, people would buy the BMW because it has history and experience with the same or less price

yes, other companies are starting to catch up, but you know what? their prices are catching up as well, so either they sell expensive and scare off buyers or they price low and save money in not-so-obvious places

there are always trade-offs, for example, yes the g35 is a great car, but it's interior is not as well-appointed nor is the ergonomics up to BMW standards, and it handles great, and is quite fast, but once you pass the limit of the car, you will get scared out of your pants

the IS300 kills the BMW in the handling department, but interior is almost as "cheap" as the G35 and the engine is a gas-guzzler, it cost a lot as well

people get what they pay for, so until other companies come to the challenge and build cars that match BMWs in all categories, BMW will rule for now because driving a BMW just is an experience that not many cars in the same price range can provide

but i do hope other car companies can realize this and start cranking out BMW-equivilents because then, prices will drop, and consumers will benefit

thejavagod

BMW is old news. The Acura CLS 6 spd. was rated on par with the 330ci despite being FWD and a bigger car. The engine and transmission ranked higher than the bimmer. Now that is something!

It is widely known that Honda builds the best engines and transmissions around bar none....to be convinced one just needs one drive the awesome S2000.

And I agree, I have driven both 330ci and CLS 6 spd quite a bit and the new CLS handles like heaven!

It is only a matter of time before Acura builds the car that they should have 10 yrs ago. Then BMW and Audi will have to close shop

Want a sampling of what Acura is capable of... look at the DN-X. It is a concept that extracts 400HP from a 3.5L V6, can do 0-60 in 4.5 seconds yet delivers 42 miles per gallon. I have not seen any "German engineering" that can match this!!

Would take a Honda over a BMW or Audi anyday!

STi

obviously someone is biased towards Honda but DON'T flame me yet
i agree honda has superb skill in making good engines and transmissions, heck, they are very good at making cars because they participate in one too many races :p
and YES, i love the s2000

but the difference is, yes the engine has more hp, and yes the clutch is a bit better than the bmw, but 1. there is no subsitute for RWD 2. the quality inside the bmw is better than the cl-s 3. the cl-s (but thie depends on the taste of the buyer, so no advantage here) is bigger 4. awesome engine on the acur, no doubt, but BMW's engine makes sweet, throaty notes while having an ultra fat torque band
ok, whether the more you have to pay for the 330 is worth it or not is up to the consumers

hemants

Lexus was smart.

I'd bet less than 5% of BMW buyers are driving enthusiasts. The other 95% are buying for the image.

Lexus with the IS and GS have tilted the performance/luxury balance more towards luxury and Lexus is now the best selling luxury brand in the world.

As an enthusiast as most on this form likely are, you may still prefer your 330 stick shift. But we are a minority.

Something to keep in mind.

P.S. I drove a Mercedes C280 yesterday (older series not the round headlights) - what a boat! Bleckh!

Las Vegas TLS

One of my points exactly, BMW has some older technology and look at the performance they acheive?

Why does Honda still sell cars that the passenger side mirror is an option? Rear drum brakes? Why did they team up with another company for the Rodeo? Why don they offer the Civic Si in a two door coupe? Other than the S2000, are any of the Hondas making you excited? And why in the heck does the TLS not have a DOHC? Why get so close yet so far?

I have owned five different products and am very happy. I guess soemtimes it is like voting for a President, the lesser of two evils wins.

phatratpak

like someone said, to make a acura or lexus version of 3-series and price match, people wouldn't buy it becaus it's not BMW. So the only way they can compete is either offer substantialy more performance or a more economical price-tag or a combination of both.

StanMan

well, i don't follow the hype! bmw might be nice and all, but to counter your argument against pass side mirrors/drum brakes/etc, why do they offer the 3 series??? bmw could also offer more standard features too. it's simple...selling cars and making it profitable. if i had the desire to buy a bmw, it would have to be at least the 5 series...if mbz, then the e class..and so on. it is so small and when i finally option out the car to the features i like, i would have practically bought a 5 series! personally, i don't care to drive a manual transmission so that doesn't bother me at all. and the thing about image is right! but whose image is it that you like most?!?!? that is what makes us choose what we choose and for me, it's apparent...

and to play devil's advocate, why doesn't everybody just go out and buy a m3...i know that is what every 325 or 330 owner *wants* right?

1SICKLEX

Cause of the IS 300 and complaining BMW owners, they adjusted the steering in the 3. The IS was deemed by many MORE 3 than 3 as the 3 is getting heavier and has to balance luxo and sport.

Let us not forget BMW took awhile to master the sports sedan, you don't just wake up one day and decide "okay let's make a BMW beater".

Did ya'll watch 60 minutes the other day. Part of it was about American Auto magazines and how full of baloney they are. BMW seems to pay the most perks, trips, all expenses paid etc etc etc etc.

SergeyM

E. G. <Honda builds the best engines and transmissions around bar none....>. I always want to ask "What do you mean? Are Honda engines better that those from Nissan or Toyota? Are they better than BMW engines? And you hear something like "No, but I used to have 1988 Ford Tempo and my 2002 TL's engine is much better". Or take this one: <CLS handles better that 330> Who in the entire world would believe it. A heavy front-driver handles better that much lighter rear drive car. I did not drive CL-S but my 2002 TL-S definitely was not a good handler in the stock form. As to BMW vs. ??? issue I don't think that anybody would want the exact copy. Look at GS 430 it is as fast if not faster that 540 and has much better Navi/Stereo/Dealer service. SO for many people it is a better car. And that's the way to go. You do not try to beat BMW on their own field you beat them in other areas. Ultimate goal for an r an automaker is to make money not to build a better handling car that BMWs.

hemants

good point 1sicklex

auto mags are undoubtedly prostitutes to the highest bidder - there is NO credibility left

Las Vegas TLS

You may be right about the automoblie magazines and them being in bed with different auto manufacturers and all.

Lets pretend that the car magizines make their money from advertisers alone and that perks and kickbacks are zero from car companies. Lets pretend that the magazine test drivers are unbiased. It seems that everytime a new "Sport Sedan" is unveiled it shows up in the newest issue of one or more of the car magazine and it is reviled up against one of the BMW's. My whole point was, unvaribly the BMW wins in overall package. The BMW may loose in one or more of the different catagories, but point total they win. Look at the 3-series, Car and Driver has put it into their "Top Ten" for the past 10 years.

It would seem that the kid that is always picked on, IE Lexus, MB, Infiniti, Acura. Would go to the gym and pump iron and learn karate, would come back and kick the snot out of BMW. As they other car companies get better, likewise BMW, and the same story is repeated year after year.

STi

that's business

giving consumers what they want

and hemants: u bet that 5% or less BMW buyers are driving enthusiasts? you know that roughly 60% of 3 series are sold in stick? and other than the 7 series, all BMWs are sold in manual versions as well as automatics, BMW wouldn't sell sticks if they're not making money out of them, so why? because the buyers demand stick, they make great manuals (but not as good as Hondas! of course)

so are you saying that those people who buy the sticks are less enthusiatic about driving than the TL drivers who run around with a bunch of torque converters?:p

i'm not bashing the TL at all, you know, i drive one and i love it

hemants

STi - you may have a good point, I'd like to see where you got your stats though.

If the majority of stick buyers are in Europe then they are not necessarily enthusiasts because everybody drives a stick in Europe.

If, however, 60% of units sold in North America are a stick then would be entirely another story (but I highly doubt it).

StanMan

...manual transmissions are usually standard, thus the car price being cheaper, and supposedly saves gas...

i don't think the stats *say* much.

STi

stanman, most people buy stick to save money, BUT, in the BMW's price range, do the buyers actually care?

hemants, the stats i read from C&D a few years back when they introduced the new e46 M3
they said things about the N.American market demanding sporting cars because about or over half of BMW buyers chose manual if one was available, and that makes BMW consider whether if it's worth it to introduce the new M3 using the 333hp engine
i douted the stat as well, but i do see many stick bmws around so, i'll go find out sometimes when i have time to kill

truthoffacts

Lets get back to the original subject,

Las Vegas TLS,

You seem to think that BMW is the holy grail with out competition.

The last time i checked the Infiniti G35 beet the bmw 330i in every car magazine comparison.

samkws

i don't think BMW has serious competition with other cars...it's already dominant and it will be the same for the next 10 yrs...just the brand image alraedy kills all and whenever a car can challenge the BMW like G35...BMW will always fight back...u think they are stupid and not improving their cars??

next car up to the competiton will be the new audi S4...let's see what happens...

samkws

just like will u care for having expensive preminum fuel and worrying for the fuel economy for the S500???

samkws

well...a gd car never equals to gd selling...

i don't believe those magazines crap....u sound like they are pointing a gun to us to buy the G35 over 330...who the hell cares??


"beet" 330i doesn't mean anything...i doubt it will outsell the BMW...the actual sales count...

STAGED

BMW's margins are getting smaller and smaller. And it's only in the hard-to-describe category of handling&ride compromise along with superb driver-road-machine communication. They certainly aren't winning the reliability wars, especially after several years and many thousands of miles. Once you factor that in, plus the fact that even a 325i sedan fully equipped lists for $36,000+ (just check MSN Carpoint and add the options up and see) and that BMWs are almost never given away for less than $1500 above invoice...you are looking at a much less attractive machine than magazines lead its readers to believe.

Keep a close eye on Cadillac. Their 400 hp CTSi will offer M5-fighting goods (heck maybe even comparable to the next generation NSX V8) for less than M3 price. It may still fall behind in the driver communication dept. but we don't know this for sure as GM is going nuts with restoring their once untouchable image.

In the meantime, the Lincoln LS McLaren edition with the roots-supercharged 3.9L V8 is another highly acclaimed model that will surely hold its value like Grand Nationals and will sticker about the same as a lightly optioned M3.

The TL and CL Type S are not bad machines at all and certainly more appropriate for most enthusiasts who have to double up their fun rides as daily drivers and family transport. The RWD may be a more direct competitor and frankly one of the highest evolutions of the BMW alternative. The Lexus IS300 may not set blazing quarter-mile speed records, but it is otherwise a razor-sharp sports sedan. Plus, the motor has tons of mod potential, probably as good as the Caddy CTSi in the mod dept. Audi seems to be trading more spots for first with BMW these days. Jaguar wants to not compete directly but offer a credible alternative to people. Heck even, Subaru's WRX is giving people reason to choose other than BMW.

All in all, BMW is still sweet at what it does best but everyone is nibbling away at its appeal and won't let up anytime soon. For BMW shareholders, it may indeed be a blessing that they are branching into SUVs.

StanMan

believe you/me, there are cheapskates in every money bracket as well as big spenders driving cheap cars!!!

i'm just saying don't take any stat for granted if you don't know the basis behind it.

STi

well said, there's a reason why peopl come out of BMWs with a fat smile on their faces after hot lapping in them, but reliability is not the best nor is the price very good
i think all the time why i saved so long for my 330Ci, but everytime i drive it, i just know the answer right away, (like why i bought a black TL, you just know why after you wash it!)is worth it? i don't know, but at least i don't regret getting it
the feel of the BMWs are just, unique, something you cant give a score in the magazine, but read them, they come up again and again, but whether if it's worth it or not is up to you

1SICKLEX

Well the IS 300 beat the 3 in a comparo and it's not like the world stopped spinning. Dude, the G35 has won (as the Tl-S used to win it's comparos) cause it's been deemed the best VALUE. Not best car. Best VALUE. C'mon comparing a 30k car to a 40k one? Who the fock would pick the 330? But a loaded 38k G35 vs a 40k 330, well the G35 is focked.

C'mon, Japanese cars have always been about VALUE to beat the Germans.

STi

very true, IS 300 is a great alternative to the 3 series though, very sweet handling