Guest

Hi All, I've been eyeing the Type-S for quite some time now. Having read all the car mag reviews about this car, I have very high expectations of what it can do. But then my feelings changed after this morning.

You see, I went to this BMW-sponsored Comparison Test today, where you get to drive and compare its major competitors in a circuit then simulates seven scenarios. Each of the scenario is designed to test one aspect of the cars. The car line-up is this: BMW 330i, 330xi, Audi A4 Quattro 2.8, MB C320 Sport, Lexus IS300, Volvo S6-T5, and the Type-S. All of them are equipped with their own Sport package, if available. Also, they are all shod with Michelins.

Coming into this event, I did not expect that the Type-S will out-do the Europeans. However, based on the reviews, I certainly expected that it will keep up with them and has a performance that's close to them. Boy, was I disappointed!

To keep a long story short, I found that the Type-S has spongy brakes and more body roll than I thought. Also, in the traction and stablity control test, it required more driver control and attention than the Bimmers and the MB (but on par with the IS300). The overall seat-of-the-pants feel is that it just doesn't inspire confidence in the me.

Being biased for the Type-S, I intially came up with two reasons for its disappointing performance: 1) BMW must have designed the circuit to favor its own, and 2) they must have tweaked the competitors to underperform.

However, it's quite unlikely BMW has done the above because I do find that C320 is up there with the Bimmers.

Another reason could be that the Typs-S has been abused by other drivers (there were earlier sessions) and has not been maintained well. Or, this particular car is an anomaly and is not representative of an average Type-S.

Anyway, I may still end up buying it because it's, quite simply, the best value of the bunch, and normal people in normal circumstances do not drive the way we did (nor face these scenarios in one's lifetime).

Am I being too harsh on the Type-S?

PS, the scenarios are:
1) TC and VSA test: accelerate car from standing start on a 15' by 21' nylon pad that is kept very wet. Then must steer around 3 sets of cones. We were asked to floor the gas all the way, except for the Audi.
2) Handling test: drive at constant 27mph in a mini slalom.
3) VSA test: drive at constant 30mph around a 180 degree on ramp.
4) Body roll test: drive at constant 27mph through a slalom.
5) ABS and VSA test: drive at constant 30mph into a curve, then brake hard in the middle of the curve (not before).
6) Acceleration test: start from 12mph, accelerating hard all the way to 42mph, then...
7) Braking test: bang on the brake pedal real hard from 42mph to 0.
(If the speeds look weird to you, it's because I converted them from km/h. Also, they may look real slow to you, but, believe me, they are plenty fast for that circuit layout.)

jsmith

whoa, that's not really an even playing field. the TLS is bigger than the BMW 3 series, the IS300, the A4, the Volvo or the baby benz. it's heavier, longer in wheelbase and overall length than any of those other cars. it is closer to the BMW 5 series if anything and i think the BMW is tighter inside and for the same amount of money you would be getting a stripped 525 as opposed to a fully loaded TLS w/ NAV. i'm strongly considering getting the TLS - any of those other cars are much too small for me. the others on my list from those families would be the GS300, A6 and Volvo S80.

anyhow as you suspected, that little course was rigged to showcase what their car is engineered to do. and anyway, in the real world, how many times a day would you encounter those conditions? i believe that the TLS is able to perform well enough for those situations. i test drove the TLS through some shorter curves and esses and i liked how it conducted itself, including lifting off in the middle of a curve. i drove my current passat through the same course and i felt the much vaunted audi suspension did not really have that much of an edge, i actually liked the way the TLS handled much better. bottom line, it's bang for the buck...

ngcreese

ca12394 -- I was in the same predicament as yourself. I think most people on this board (if not all) would agree that the TLS' achilles heel is it's handling... in the stock form. I too concede this to be true when compared to the bimmer.

That can be attributed to the fact that I don't think Acura expected the this car to suddenly become appealing to the mid 20's - to mid 30's age group. It had originally targeted the car for the mid 50's group. (i.e.: they have a hell of a sleeper on their hands and those of us who did the math found out!) But give me a break 260 hp, independent double wish bone suspension, CABIN SPAAAACCCCEEEE, and a reasonable price even with the navi???

I digress, back to the handling...

If you notice most people here (including myself, soon) have pegged the suspension problem by adding the comptech anti sway bars (for less body roll, and under steer) and/or springs (firmer ride, lower aggressive stance) to their cars. Hell, my dealer actually recommended the set to me! I guess Acura thought these were two things that weren't as important to mid 50 year old folks, as value for their money (little did Acura know we younger folks dig value too). However, with what you get stock there is SO much potential!!!

Tell you the truth, although the soft stock sports--suspension takes some getting used to I find the car to be quite competent and predictable when pushed through the corners not to mention comfortable. But it DOES take some getting used to, compared possibly with your older true blue car with suspensions mods.

Believe me, you'll be happier because:
-- you saved the $10k( $9k, if you want to get the sways, springs and have your dealer install them).
-- you can trounce on a 330i from a dead stop to what ever speed you want (they're slower than you).
-- you'll be able to out corner ( or at least nicely match) them should you upgrade the suspension.

Sorry for the rambling but truth is truth...

Pshhhhh

Sorry, but you'll never out-handle a 330 in a front-heavy FWD no matter what upgrades you do. 330 will tear you up at the track everytime. Also, last time I checked a manual 330 is faster than a Type-S. Truth is truth.

ngcreese

Pshhh -- My comments were based on more of an apples to apples comparison.

i.e.: tiptronic to tiptronic. Not stick to tiptronic (6spd TLS is still in debate)....

Handling, hmmm, you would probably want to debate that with folks who have gone head to head after the springs and sways upgrade I believe Mr. Hyde has a pretty cool thread on the subject where he, or someone on the thread went head to head with a 330i after the upgrade with pretty good results. I'll admit that in the handling context this is not really an apples to apples comparison. But we'er still talking about a 9K - 11k difference in cost (after you throw in 1k for the suspension upgrade)... :p

I have driven the 330i and is300 I know they are great handling cars, stock. But did they corner better then a RWD volvo with ipd suspension upgrades, bilstien shocks and some good rubber on the ground? I would have to say no. There are more than enough suspension kits to make up for those cars handling advantage.

Folks with suspension upgrades please weigh in on the subject...

vandy786

First of all, why are you still lurking around this site, Audiboy? Secondly, most drivers don't take their car to the track. I use mine for transportation (which means getting from one place to another). Why can't you get over the fact that the TL-S is the best (and most) car you can buy for $30K ? Also, about the comment on the BMW 330, most people I know who have that car have the auto. It would be interesting to learn what percent of the 330's that are sold are actually manuals. So most of the time, a 330 WILL lose to a TL-S. "Truth is truth."

ngcreese

right on...

t.i.t.

Guest

Thanks for all the replies. I agree, upgrading the suspension should take care of this. However, this would eliminate the price advantage of going for the TLS, depending on how much you spend on it.

But hey, you do get a larger car. So, after thinking about it last night and reading your posts (thx ngcreese, esp. for yours), I decide to go for the TLS after all.

ngcreese

Hey man, 1k extra is all you need. (tires and rims will cost extra) And my $$$ comparison comments inlcuded the navi on booth vehicles....

...so...

Don't forget the navi...

My springs and sways are due in on Aug 1st & 2nd (www.autocarparts.com, your link to the UPS tracking system is way cool). I'm looking forward to adding a couple of cents to the handling debate.

Scratch that, I'm looking forward joining others on this board in displaying that insane grin across my face as I whip around corners... at speed.

Have fun with your new ride!!!

Pshhhhh

I have no problem with the Type-S being one of the best cars for 30k. Yes your car is relatively fast in straightline. It could probably eek out a victory against a steptronic 330, but "trounce on a 330i", I think not.

As for handling, there is much more to handling that the suspension. Weight distribution, structural rigidity, unsprung weight, RWD/FWD/AWD, etc.. must all be factored in. Having said that, adding springs/shocks/swaybar will not overcome the inherent advantages the 330 has over the Type-S. Not to mention the 330 SP comes with a better suspension stock.

BarryH

I had a '97 C36 AMG. You know what? It could easily out handle all of the cars mentioned in this thread. Unfortunately, there's a downside to cars equipped with a high performance suspension that everyone overlooks. In NY/NJ where I drive, the roads are crap. Last winter I had to replace three AMG wheels and Bridgestone Expedia tires at $600 a pop due to potholes. You end up getting the wheels aligned and balanced every ninety days at $250 a pop. And in the winter, unless you get snow tires, driving a car with a high performance suspension and tires is totally impossible. For everyday driving the car was stiff and harsh to the point of being uncomfortable. I had ordered a C32 AMG a year ago. I started to think about it and it and just couldn’t rationalize the $55K price and the impracticality. The TL-S has enough balls to satisfy my desire for performance but is still a very livable daily driver. Can it out handle a 330i with the sport package? No. It's a heavy front wheel drive car designed for touring. But - for $30K it's a hell of a lot of car for the money and a good balance between performance and luxury. Having lived with multiple German cars, you do get a lot of engineering for the premium price that you pay as anyone with an Audi, M-B, or BMW will tell you. However, a loaded 330i or C320 is easily $10K more than a TL-S. For me, I just couldn't justify the price difference for the marginal levels of improved performance.

AC

I think that there is a misconception here that needs to be clarified. I added CT springs and sways along with 18's with 225 series "sticky" rubbers, yes my handling improved but you still will not out handle a 330 with S/P nor the IS300.

Actually, I think most 330's sold are stick, over 50% if I recall.

The TypeS is THE BEST BANG for $30K, and there is no denying that, period.

I agree with the post above, the TypeS will probably beat most cars off the line. Hell, I think with CAI and CT Headers, it'll run neck to neck with my 540i, but that's really not the point.

If I had $30K to spend on a car, it would certaninly be the TypeS, but if an additional $8K was disposable, I would certainly get the 330Ci or even the S4, wait, I'm actually not a fan of the 3 Series nor the A4's per say due to the size. Maybe I should have said the GS300.

evolaerok

Magazines do! It's sort of rigged for BMW's advantage. I went to one of those a few months ago in Denver for a X5, MDX, Rx300, Allroad, QX4, and ML320. Of course the Bimmer won, but when testing the cars at the dealers, they feel so much more different. In my opinion I think BMW test there tuned cars compared to used or lemon stock competition. The test that you mentioned also seemed more suited for the likes of BMW's "compact" sports sedan vs. our "midsize" sports sedan. Go test drive them at the dealers instead of a BMW sponsored test comparison.

coffeefingers

Dude,

When I bought my TL S-Type I knew this wasn't the "best" sports sedan on the market. But it was the BEST bang for my buck. That's why I bought it. I could have bought a BMW but I figured the extra $10K I saved could be used for better things...like buying more guitars!

99% of my driving is "regular" street driving. Getting from point A to point B without major fanfare. The TL does this SUPERBLY. I rarely use the full potential of my car anyway...so to buy a BMW for an extra $10K that can go a couple seconds faster on a race track is dopey to me. Plus...my insurance is cheaper with a TL and I know my maintenance cost will be less than a BMW. Well...it better be.

If I was worried about lap times on a track I would have bought a Vette which would have spanked all those cars.

It's nice to see those stats about those cars but most of that is just watercooler chat anyway.

I've read the threads on this board about people racing other cars in their TLs and it's entertaining to read...but in the end...so what. Big deal. I've seen too many reports on the news about dopey people who race on the streets and kill themselves and others so all this posturing about who's faster than who is a bit silly.

If you like your car then who cares what other people say about it.


SLAYER RULES!

sboje

I agree with Pshhhh on this one. You can't compensate for weight, unsprung weight, chasis rigidity, weight distribution etc. with a simple spring and sway bar upgrade. I'm sure it makes the car feel more solid. Furthermore, I think the TL-S is rougher than a 330 sport (must be unsprung weight.. dunno). You always feel the surface of the road in a 3 series, but the bigger bumps aren't jarring and the whole car doesn't get knocked around. I get that feeling in the TL-S.

The value of the TL-S can't be overstated though.

vandy786

My point exactly. Most people use their cars for transportation, not street racing. However, it is a great feeling to know that I can hang with a lot of the more expensive cars should I ever encounter such a challenge.

Fiddler

not to get away from the friendly flaming, but what did you think of the other cars? how did the Volvo and Benz compare.. waht did u like/dislike about all the competitors?
thanks

ngcreese

Hey guys, bottom line is:

It's a cool car, it can hold it's own, and it's easy on the pocket and the eye.

G'night fellas...


Fiddler -- The "volvo" is a long story in itself, some other time.

dean078

Acura had one of these when the cl-s came out too. it wasn't for the public, but it was for dealers and there was a review on it too.

there was the cl-s, a clk320, volvo c70, and a bmw 328ci. it tested interior noise, acceleration, and crap that the acura would win at.

bottom line is, it's easy to create a test where the car you want can come out on top. i can probably create a test where a yugo would come out over a s500.

coffeefingers

Dude,

LOL! Now THAT would be a GREAT car comparo! LOL!

MotorTrend...are you listening! Hehe...

Now, the problem would probably be to find a Yugo that's still running.

jsmith

to be totally fair, it should be the s600 :p

ever read this comparo over at edmunds? they may not be RT or CD but it's the same cars and they provide you with lots of data about the cars. even if you discount the subjective aspects i'd say it's very useful stuff IMHO...

http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/compa...8/article.html

ps. and guess what came out #1?

Turboara

All this talk about how "a 330 will house you on the twisties at a track" beggs the question: when was the last time any of us participated in a road race and were passed by a 330 on the turns?

Uhmmmmmm
how about never. It is very unlikely anyone would take tl or 330 to a road course and expect to be competitive.

On the regular roads streets and highways I seriously doubt there are enough hard core turns where a 330 will blow by us around the turn.

So the truth may be that a 330 will outperform a tl-s on the turns at a track, but in the real world I think that is hardly relevant. Not nearly as relevant as an extra $10G's in my pocket.

derrick

<i>ca12394</i>,

when did you go? i was there 4:30-6:30 on Saturday. let me say that i was <b>not impressed</b> by the way that Acura they had performed. although i've never taken my car out on the various tests they had, i know that the roll the test vehicle they had was a sign of 1500km of abuse! (i read the odometer when i sat in the car) it swayed a lot more than my 'stock' car.

did you know that they had to stop running the car on the obstacle course near the end of the day 'cause the car started to make a weird clicking noise in the steering wheel?

although it was apparent that the Type-S was bulky compared to the others. the front end dip on the ABS braking test was readily spotted. the body roll was a bit exaggerated on the slolam. i drove the car when the brakes were hot as hell so some of the braking distances were not realistic-- the hard left/hard brake test suffered as well.

all things being equal, i have to admit, the MB C320 sport, IMHO, was the clear winner of those autos I drove on the obstacle course. of course, in canada, you're paying a C$59000 premium (before our ridiculous taxes!) to have the privilege to drive a car like that. I am seriously looking into the C32 AMG coming out this fall. if it performs nearly as well as the C320 sport, the added <b>raw power</b> of that engine will entice me to make a serious upgrade... (and a GS430 was 'the contender' before...)

<b>BOTTOMLINE:</b> I have to say I had a great time on Saturday. I learned so much about how critics rate vehicles and I learned some of the weaknesses of my driving. I will seriously think about taking the BMW driving school they offer. And lastly, the MB is definitely a sleeper auto! BMW is good but Mercs can hold their own!

Guest

This site is full of people with extreme psychic hunger that cannot be filled by upgrading their cars, yet they keep trying. These people care very much about what other people say and think. This site consists in large part of young guys who are trying to impress, and/or out-do other guys. Its all for fun, competition, and testosterone induced posturing. Hopefully, nobody gets hurt, but ultimately we know people do get hurt and killed with these machines.

It's been said many times, but boys will be boys. I say let the games continue, and let those who sell mods keep getting richer and richer!

My two cents!

Fiddler

why are there no comments about the volvo? and why was the audi not allowed to brake like the others? (or was it turn?.. i'm too lazy to read the thread again).
And as far as teh whole 330 vs TLS thing... personally, i dont care if it can pass in the twisties or beat it in a line or wahtever.. it is just the feeling u get when u drive it.. I never drove the 330 but i drove the IS300 and just the way it handles is enough to make u smile.. i never get taht feeling in the TL/TLS. It's just more fun / more connected. same reason people like stick better.. you might not be a good enough driver to make your stick faster than my auto for instance, but it's just the fact taht you are in control of the ride more and you know exactly what's going on (and are not at the mercy of the auto trans computer gremlins)

Guest

derrick, I was in the 9:30am to Noon session. I made sure I went early so that we wouldn't have the same problems that you had. So now you know what to do the next time round! BTW, I remember the rep saying the next comparo is in October - I hope it's the SUV's turn and Toronto has an early snowfall on that day! Maybe I will see you there. 9:30am sharp, eh?

I agree with you that the C320 Sport is a sleeper, but IMHO the 330i still comes out ahead, and costs less to boot!

Fiddler, I didn't care about the Volvo so didn't drive it at all. Ah, the Audi. The BMW guy wanted us to feel the difference driving an AWD with no VSA on the wet nylon pad. When you floor the 330i, TC and VSA will kick in and make the car inch forward, while allowing you to manoeuvre around the cones with 100% confidence. With the Audi, AWD kicks in to propel the car forward much faster, but this can cause you BIG problems if you don't lift off gas right away (remember, you are trying to round those cones). This serves as a reminder that 4x4s could be hazardous to you if you aren't careful!

I wish to clarify that I have no interest in street racing whatsoever. My main point is that the TL-S used in the test did not feel confident in emergency situations, which concerns me.
Although the TL-S completed all the tasks, I couldn't help but feel unsafe riding in it. Not that it's really unsafe, mind you, but there's this nagging feeling...

BUT, It's a good thing derrick confirmed that the tester did not feel like his 'stock' car and did develop problems later in the day. Maybe the tester's in really bad shape after all.

ZodiakTL

u can't have it all, either get amazing handling, or sacrifice it for more room. now quit *****ing and buy a new car! :p

Fiddler

I will as soon as they come out with one that has nice handling, is powerful, is no more than $35k and can fit people comfortable

AC

]

ZodiakTL

i don't think even an accord can stay on the road long enough for that to happen

Bitium

You forgot to mention the most important one "The Driver"

So Type S or 330 I'll kick your ass anytime any track...

wakkolio

I test drove the 330 before buying my TL-S. I must say i don't like the way the dash looks. Thats just me though.

nickchop

Check out Edmund's review of the BMW 330i, Acura TL--Type-S, Infiniti I30t, Mazda Millenia S, Mercedes C320, Volvo S60, Cadillac Catera Sport, Lincoln LS V8 and the Lexus IS 300. These are professionals who more than likely had reservations about the TL-S and would normally be biased to the BMW and/or Lexus. Based on several categories, including value, the TL-S won.

http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/compa...8/article.html

I currently have a '97 I-30T and read this article 10 days ago, figuring I would purchase an IS 300, a 330i or even the Max..uh I-30T again. Within 4 hours of reading it, I had purchased a 2002 Acura TL, Type-S with NAVI (WDP w/Parchment interior). I'll have it August 14th...counting the days, literally. I am actually losing sleep over this. My wife is soo sick of hearing about it. I give her additional info on the car and what add-ons I will put on it daily.

I truly believe the TL-S is the absolute best of the bunch. The NAVI is unbelievable and if you were not considering it, you really should. But, I will say this, better hurry, the prices are rising. I think it is only a matter of time (1 or 2 mos.) before the shortages become like the Acura MDX (+$1k or more over MSRP). Good luck on your decision.

13 days (312 hours or 18,720 minutes) and counting.
Come to papa...2002 Acura TL, Type-S with NAVI (WDP w/Parchment interior)

91M5

How is a test that includes braking, slalom, acceleration, etc. biased towards BMW? Maybe it is biased towards driving. I don't get it.

Most BMW owners will admit they are willing to pay the extra dollars for the "feel" of a BMW despite more maintenance costs. The other ones do buy it for the name. That is our culture. Volvo buyers like to think of themselves as safe and practical. They are still buying a car for image.

The TL appears to be a great sedan, good value and fast when you need it. However, it is not a sports sedan in the tradition that the BMW 5 series is. For $10-20k less that is just fine.

You know, you could all buy a used 91-93 M5 and be faster than all the cars mentioned here (C36 is quite close though). I did three GTECH runs in my car and was under 5.8 every time. I have 139k miles on the clock.

ngcreese

nickchop -- that review drove me over the edge and was the reason I bought the DEP w/ Navi Acura TLS, 2 weeks ago.

Funny, my parents have this belief that the best time to buy something is when a manufacturer is fighting hard to earn the customers' respect. Not when that manufacturer is already on top. Because when they're on top, either the price is bloated that much more, or the name brand is what is carrying the product as opposed to quality.

It seems that Acura is trying to earn the customer's respect.

I've got about 1000 miles (had to get that break-in done ) on my ride, suspension parts are coming today (thanks www.autocarparts.com your ups tracking is kool). I've never been happier.

I've gotten a lot of compliments from people in the streets. And my buddies at work dig the value (read: everything's included except for the Navi! ... thats the way an entry level luxury sports sedan should come, not with luxury or sport as an option!!) and sheer speed of this thing.

The only slight thing I found a little off about my ride so far is a driver's side door handle squeak that was immediately (and I mean immediately) fixed by the dealer's service department.

my2sense

based on several categories, the bmw would have won that edmunds comparo. the tl-s value was the sole winning factor for the car.

but hey.. value is value.. right?

vandy786

I guess so. Other than getting points for best steering, least rattles and squeaks, best climate control and stereo system, fastest 0-60 time, best quarter mile time and speed (tied), most horsepower, value, and best fuel economy, the TL-S did not get first place in the other things. So I guess if they just looked at rear seat room, secondary controls, cupholders, entry/exit and storage space, even the car that placed seventh (Infinity) could have been first. Depends on how you look at it. The TL-S may not have gotten first place points in everything, but it got enough points so that it BEAT the BMW fair and square.