brune55

Hey TLers. I am planning on having my tranny flushed and want to replace fluid with Red Line High Temp ATF which they say is better then the D4 ATF. I searched and D4 is what Honda uses for their Tranny fluid. The shop says it uses 16 Qts for their flush jobs. Am I going to have to buy all matching fluid for the whole flush? Can I but 10 cheap quarts to do the flushing and fill it afterwards with the Red Line DV ATF or the High Temp ATF?
I also found an inline fluid pump with a built-in filter that I can place inline with a tranny cooler to increase the flow into the tranny. Do you think this would be benefit or be a waste of time? So far my fluid is excellent and she has 102300 miles on it. I just want to try and prevent the problem before it happens before I continue with my mods. Any advice or help would be greatly appreciated.
Also, is there any Northern New England TL clubs around that has gatherings and/or runs.

I hate cars

You want to flush with the fluid you're going to run. If they pull a cooler line to do the flush, it's a pretty much directional flow of fluid meaning old out, new in, and very little mixing of old and new if they know what they're doing.

As long as they drain the old fluid, fill it with your new fluid, and let it run with a line disconnected (while adding more new fluid) until the fluid coming out is new, you're not wasting anything.

Remember, the torque convertor holds over half of the fluid, that's why the flush is necessary.

Anytime you can cool and filter the fluid better it's worth it. You're not going to run it too cool with an external cooler as long as you keep the factory radiator exchanger hooked up. Install a Magnefine filter in one of the cooler lines and you're set.

FWIW, I think the Z1 fluid is crap. I've been using Amsoil for 40K of my 60K miles and it's great. Now that I have a good fluid, cooler, and filter I'm probably going to extend the changes to 60,000+ miles. The Z1 is usually dead (meaning oxidized and out of grade) in 20,000 miles.

brune55

I just wanted to cut down on the amount of the Red Line fluid I bought and do the first part of the flush with something cheaper. I have a "Desert Fox" tranny cooler that I had for my GTP that burnt up on me before I got to install it. The pump I found was at http://www.hopetechnik.com/motorspor...oil%20pump.htm ..... that I want to get but can't find a distributor. I wrote and asked them if I could buy it from them but no word yet. I even offered to buy a quanity of them. Oh Well...
What is this Z1 fluid you was speaking of?

I hate cars

Z1 is the stock Honda fluid.

The pump you mention would not help and could be potentially devastating to the trans. There's a lot of flow to the cooler in stock form.

As far as coolers, bigger is usually better. You want the B&M plate style coolers, not the tube and fin. It's very hard to overcool a transmission. I'm not familiar with the Desert Fox.

Do you still have the GTP?

brune55

No, unfortuneately..... The car caught on fire last Feb 14th, 07 in my driveway and lost the whole front half of car. I was on my PC when it happened. This year they sent me a recall notice for the problem that caused the fire. I have pics of it. From the rear end, you wouldn't even know it was totaled. It was an awesome running car. Blew away a LS6 Vette and never got out of second gear before having to back off at 95 MPH.

brune55

Here is the cooler....http://www.3800performance.com/Merch...001/df_new.jpg

I hate cars

That's a badass cooler. All a TL could ever need.

That's too bad about the GTP. The Buick motors seem to hate transmissions. I just bought tranny number 4 for the GN. This one has all the billet goodies and set me back more than I'm willing to admit. Somehow, I know it's still going to die in a year or so.

I know it's off topic, but what did you have done to the 6 banger?

01tl4tl

103000 miles and you want to experiement with trans fluid!!
What a thrillseeker!!!!
Is this the original trans? I give it 1 month on different fluid then the trans goes out
If you are still in extended warranty coverage- let the trans fail and get a replacement unit

brune55

Yes, this is the original tranny, as far as I know. I bought it cash last year after my GTP burned up. Had to refinace my home though. I just want to have a cooler running, better quality fluid in the tranny before I do any more mods to the engine or car.

brune55

Their were a lot of mods done before I bought it. I bought it from a guy who picked it up a a Govt auction. I knew it wasn't stock when I test drove it. It hit 100 going on a on ramp entering onto a turnpike. I did notice the SC pulleys were not a stock size, idle was a bit beefy and awesome exhaust. I put on before it burnt, a CAI, MSD coils & 8.5 wires and colder Denso plugs. When I got it home and started detailing it, I found unspent shotgun shells and .22 cal ammo in the trunk, hidden. I could tell by some of the door panels had been stripped down and searched. I gave away all my new parts that I bought for the GTP to the garage that did the mods on my TL S.

01tl4tl

brune
register and see if you are covered by the 7year9 month/ 109k warranty extension
see recalls section of the acura.com- need VIN to register
http://owners.acura.com/registration...erstepone.aspx
As long as the title is not salvage...

changing trans fluid at this miles OFTEN and QUICKLY results in trans failure and replacement

ChrisQ1980

I'm willing to bet you will do more harm than good doing this. If anything do the 3x3 fluid change with Honda ATF. Get the comptech cooler, even though it has nothing to do with the transmission life. The clutch packs are flawed and can go out at anytime.

If you already have a post 05 transmission, then just change out the fluid every 15k. I noticed in your sig that you have a "tuned uni-chip" Those also aren't such a great idea for the TL. Is the car dyno tuned?

I hate cars

His cooler has well over twice the cooling capacity of the Comptech. Why would you want him to downgrade the cooler?

The 3X3 change gets you only 30% new fluid.

Honda Z1 fluid is about the worst fluid ever. Why would you want him to use something inferior?

Yes, the cooler doesn't directly help the transmission flaw, cooler fluid is always better.

Once you have a new, superior fluid and cooler, there's no reason to change the fluid every 15K.

MikePA

Despite dozens of threads to the contrary, another tranny 'expert' gives advice. A cooler won't help the tranny last longer and the use of fluid not designed for the tranny will toast it. But, brune55, it's your tranny, do what you want. Also, a 3 x 3 drain and refill replaces 80% of the original fluid, not 30%.

01tl4tl

the trans holds 7.3 qts total
to really do a full cleaning and replacement of all the fluid- 3x4 or 5 would be the right method for the extreme

As long as I have warranty and acura keeps replacing trans for me as needed- its staying on the special honda fluid ~

6MTUA5

iTrader: (2)

&



Seen/heard about it too many times, including first hand.

I hate cars

A cooler won't help? Going by your logic, take the factory cooler off and is should last forever. It may not help the design flaw but a good cooler is always a good idea.

You're another one that has been tricked into only using the factory Z1 by Honda. It's nothing special. Tests have shown it's a very bad fluid. The only way I would think of using Z1 is for warranty reasons.

I've been pretty happy with the 63,000 trouble free miles on my "non recommended" fluid and external cooler.

ChrisQ1980

Even if the Z1 is a poor quality flud, the TL's transmission is designed for it. Where is the proof anyway that it's bad? Kris had 3 transmissions fail on him using the cooler. It's actually only recomended when using a supercharger. What type of driving will you be doing to justify the need?

At his mileage, we are simply suggesting leaving it alone because it will most likely fail. At this point I'd suggest a simple drain and fill and see what happens, If nothing do it again. The 3x3 change gets WAY more out than 30%, more like 80-90%. Flushes are not recomended as per Acura and the owenrs manual. It's not my car so all I can do is give advice.

I hate cars

I understand your reasoning. I agree that the cooler won't fix a design flaw but it's never a bad idea.

Here's the reason I think a good synthetic will work well with the design flaw... From what I've read, the third gear steels have the wrong finish. When it shifts to third the temp inside the clutch pack can exceed the Z1's limit, oxidizing it quickly. This is also a reason the cooler won't hurt. If the starting temp is lower, the ending temp at the end of a shift will be cooler. You can't cite one guy that had a cooler and had a few failures as a normal occurance. That would be like me saying the only reason mine has lasted past 60,000 miles is because I have a cooler on it.

I know everyone says that the Z1 turning black in a few thousand miles is normal but I have to disagree. My Amsoil looks like the day I put it in nearly 30,000 miles later.

01tl4tl

Maybe amsoil last so long because it doesnt pick up or suspend contaminents as well?

Oil change of color has little to do with its actual life- dirt is always there and good oil picks it up so its not stuck to bad things

I hate cars

I'm running a magnefine filter which probably helps. The Z1 that was analyzed was badly oxidized and I was told that's why it was black.

I do remember the Z1 has more zinc than just about every other fluid and that may be part of the reason it's considered "special". For this reason I went with the Amsoil ATD (for Allison transmissions) and not their regular ATF. Amsoil does not recommend the ATD in a Honda but so far so good.

Luke7

Please spend the time and money to prove that Honda Z1 is better than most store brands=you can't do it sorry. Had to chime in on this. I've seen similiar post so many time on how GREAT Z1 is. It's not and no one can prove that it is SO MUCH better for our cars.

ChrisQ1980

And what can you prove?

I hate cars

I've seen numerous UOAs of Z1 that was completely trashed in less than 20,000 miles. Z1 is fine if you change it very, very often. It's a 10K mile fluid. Change it that often and you will probably be fine.

ChrisQ1980

I change it every 10-15k, I don't know enough about, nor do I really care about transmission fluid for this car. The tranny is shit to begin with, and honda/acura seem to be dead set on the Z1 fluid so I'm sticking to it. Especially since I'm still under warranty.

I think the Z1 looks/performs bad over a short period of time because of the transmission it's in. On my previous auto Integra, the fluid looked great after 30k of use (when I use to change it) With this car I cut it in half. I just dont' want to see anyone get screwed out of a tranny because of a fluid change/flush. It's good to hear that you are having no problems after 60k of use on the Amsoil.

I hate cars

Looks like your OCI is perfect for the Z1. I would have no problem running it at that interval.

fsttyms1

First off the 2nd gen does NOT have a cooler. Trans fluid isnt routed any where towards the radiator to cool. It is routed to a small (what honda claims as a heater) for cold weather. (im sure when hot it may extract a very small amount of heat since it goes into a small device that has coolant in it)

2nd, the cooler may cool the fluid but its not helping the fluid at all thats in the 3rd gear clutch packs. Like you said (and is well known here to many) its a design flaw.
While i agree the honda fluid is nothing special, it is designed for the honda trans and its materials (just like dexron I II II IV and mercron and mercron.v were designed for their respective trans and if used in the wrong applications would lead to bad results) Is amsoil better Most likely. Will it help our trans, most likely not.

I went to a every oil change change trans fluid schedule and it did nothing to help the trans (in fact that trans lasted the least amount of miles of my 5 failures). I think fluid debate is a mute point on a design problem.

MurdaZ

iTrader: (1)

lol i know lots of people who dont change the fluid and the trans last a long time, opposed to changing it, on my 99, changed it, died in a month, same happened with my 02, so with this new rebuilt one from honda, i wont even touch it, the color is still a nice pinkish

I hate cars

The "heater" is very much a cooler too. Once the trans fluid is past the 190 degree engine thermostat opening the heater is now a cooler. No auto trans can run without cooler. You would have less than an hour of run time until it's ruined.

The cooler can't help the fluid while it's in the clutch pack but if it enters at a cooler temp, especially with an inferior fluid like Z1, it can't hurt. Plain and simple, the fluid will last longer with a cooler no matter what the design flaw is with the trans.

It's really insignifigant that a couple transmissions failed after a few short OCIs. You guys had major problems already. To say you're not going to touch the fluid now is implying that the short OCIs may have contributed to the failure. For the people whose transmissions aren't screwed from the get-go, following a shorter than factory OCI and adding a cooler will prolong the life of the trans.

If the transmission is built wrong, no cooler or fluid is going to help much. If I knew mine would go out for sure in 10K miles, I would run the cheapest fluid possible. But why not give it a fighting chance? You guys are not adding a cooler or a good fluid "just in case" you have a bad transmission. That doesn't make sense. I'm not trying to be that annoying new guy trying to teach everyone something they don't already know. Read the underlined portion again if you think that's what I'm doing.

MurdaZ

iTrader: (1)

this is like beating a dead horse...wheres that smiley

6MTUA5

iTrader: (2)

fsttyms1

Exactly, no cooler or fluid is going to help or prolong the failure. That said we are all hoping that the 05 updates will continue to show good life.

I hate cars

Yes, but you are assuming all of them have the problem which they obviously don't. For those like the op which seem to be ok, the fluid and cooler will help prolong the life.

fsttyms1

They all have problems. Why some make it 4, 5 6 times longer than others?? You can think that the fluid and cooler will help but they wont. Get more fluid to the 3rd gear and you would solve the problem.

I hate cars

With some units over 100,000 miles I would say not all have the problem. If it's just a surface finish on the steels, some steels could've come from a different source and had the correct finish. I'm sorry, but I don't believe they're all bad.

ChrisQ1980

We aren't even sure the OP has the original transmission.

The way I see it, is why waste money on a flawed unit? Just replace the Z1 every 15k yourself and hope for the best. There is no miracle fluid that will help it. If you have a supercharger, or tow, then an cooler should be installed.

I doubt it would hurt to install a cooler anyway, but it's kind of pointless. The problem is a LACK of fluid flowing to the clutch packs, not the temp of the fluid.

6MTUA5

iTrader: (2)

...

I hate cars

Thank you for your contribution. Very helpful.