Does anyone have the part numbers for the 2-3 and 3-4 switches, and a pic/diagram of which ones they are (locations)?

 

I'll link to it when I get home. The 2nd gen switches are $10 more each than the 3rd gen. They do look different too, 2nd gen has a larger opening on the pressure side but threads and I *think* the plugs are the same.

 

Hey, i started this dam thread a while back, been driving with Z1 in my 2000 TL I replaced the 3/4 switches and saw a slight improvement now things are going crappy again..there is shudder pretty often and there is flare..i deal with it by letting off accel just before it shifts...this makes it smooth and everything. I wanted to switch to non-FM stuff you said you were using in 3rd gen TLs long ago but you also said you were not sure if it would work in 2nd gens.....so is this confirmed to work now???? Any difference if it is 2000 5 speed instead of 4 speed 99??? Also what fluid specifically? -thanks

 

Any Type F will do. I use Redline because you get the benefits of the Type F and you get the awesome ester base oil but it's not necessary.

Many companies label Type F as "racing" or something of that nature. Amsoil calls it "super shift". Redline calls it "racing" or "lightweight racing" depending on which one you want. B&M calls it "trick shift" Royal Purple calls it "racing atf".

"Type F" specifies the lack of friction modifiers. Besides that, you can get it in dino, synthetic, thick, thin, etc.

The '99 I did a while back is still going strong. It was so bad that I told the owner this would not fix it but he might be able to limp it around a little longer until he got the money for a rebuild. It shifts better than stock right now.

I don't want to tell anyone that it will for sure fix a severe shudder and flare. Each time the trans shudders it wears the clutches excessively. Shudder is the clutches trying to grab, then slip, then grab again quickly. That's what you're feeling. Auto trans clutches aren't designed to slip for more than a few milliseconds. The excessive slippage of the shudder and flare are causing a ton of wear and some damage is done. However, if there's still some clutch lining left and the surface is not seriously hurt, the type F along with switches will nearly stop the clutch wear. If you did this from the time it was new, the trans would be the last thing you would have to worry about failing.

Anyone worried about shifts getting too harsh, they won't. But it you're really worried, do a single drain and fill and drive it around for a week or so. The largest change I experienced was the first one. The second brought slightly quicker shifts that surprisingly I could feel even less.

 

Ok, awesomness.
I wish i knew this earlier, it shudders now but 80% of the time it will shift fine, a little late but smooth. I can make it shift good 99.9% of the time with proper throtling but thats slowly pissing me off. Also it shifts perfect in Sport Shift mode.

I think changing the pressure switches helped it shift quicker gear-to-gear as in not delayed as it was but it didnt help with clutch slipping/shudder or flare. So im gonna get them to drain it and fill with Redline stuff....that way its about 50/50 old and new.

So, just to confirm/clarify you put Redline racing fluid in the 99 TL.???

P.S. I appreciate the help you have probably explained the clutch/fluid thing hundreds of times as far as i can tell from the forums. .

 

There's something else going on with the earlier TLs that I couldn't put my finger on. My time was limited but the one that I fixed also shifted late but shifted ok in Sport mode. I figure it shifted ok in sport because the line pressure is usually raised which will stop the shudder and flare. But the lateness is probably another sensor going bad. The one I fixed shifted very good but the 1-2 was late and the 2-3 was a little late. I'm sure it would be easy to find if I had more time.

The Type F fluid will make an immediate difference in shift quality but since the clutches are not directly fed with oil you have to work it in a bit. I took the '99 out and manually shifted it 2-3, 3-4, and back down again over and over and then I put it back in auto every now and then to see the results. After about 5 trips around the block doing this it was an amazing difference. It's like the old slippery FM has to be rinsed out of the clutch faces and the good fluid soaked in. You don't have to do this procedure but it will speed up the results.
I used the cheapest Type F from the auto parts store at the time because this one was so far gone the chances of it working were slim to none. I didn't want to waste any extra money on it. The synthetics like Redline are a great idea in very hot climates or if you plan to leave it in there for a long time. For a shorter interval there's less advantages to a synthetic.

This stuff will drastically cut down on clutch pack temps. A reduction in slippage makes a huge difference in temps. I read the entire report on the 2nd gen failures and to me it was a bunch of BS and inconclusive. There was a legit 2nd gear lube issue with the gears themselves but nothing else made sense. Everything pointed to excessive clutch slippage and wear which is what made me start looking at the electronics and fluid. Obviously the mechanical failures were the end result of bad switches and a fluid with too much FM causing the slip, wear, and heat.

They seemed to want to concentrate on the effects (excessive heat) rather than the causes (slippage).
I've done it a few times lol.

The thing you will notice is after a few drains and fills is you will eventually have little to no metal on the magnet. Mine shed a ton of metal with Z1. Luckily I got that out of there at 20,000 miles. I used Amsoil ATD which is a Dex III equivalent fluid for about 50,000 miles. It has less FM than Z1 but obvioiusly more than Type F. This cut down the metal on my drain plug magnet by about half. I just changed my Type F Redline out after nearly 30,000 miles and there's absolutely nothing on the magnet. Fluid stayed perfecty cherry red for the entire interval. It seems like both clutch and metal wear virtually stops with this stuff. When I checked the dipstick, there's nothing but trans fluid on it. Normally when you pull it out and wipe it on a white towel you see the darkness of clutch material on it. This is no longer happening.

Since clutch wear is cut down considerably as is hard part wear and with the great base oil of the Redline and new pressure switches, you can actually *safely* follow Acura's change intervals without it causing excessive wear as it did with Z1. I think this fluid combo will go an easy 100,000 miles but I'm not sure if I want to test that theory yet.

It's really too bad what happened to the 2g when it's such an easy fix. This won't be able to fix all of them but if this fluid was used from the factory, it would have eliminated these things would never have had the shudder and flare problems. The 2nd gear lockup probably would have happened. I still wonder how much of that lockup was caused by excessive clutch material and crap plugging up the filter though.

I'm half asleep so I hope this makes sense. I probably could have said the same thing in half the words.

 

I thought I would mention since you're in Canada that in very cold climates you need a mixture if you go with the Redline.

Z1 is 7cSt when hot. Redline Racing is 10cSt when hot. Redline lightweight racing is 4cSt when hot. It's not a huge difference and it won't hurt a thing to run it without mixing but if you want near stock viscosity, 2 quarts of the racing and one of the lightweight will get you pretty close. They're both Type F, only the viscosity is changed.

I know this can be confusing but keep in mind it's really not that important unless you live in a seriously cold area. Most people don't mix but some do.

 

Keep us posted Maybe do a diy with pix and descriptive changes that you noticed from using the Redline product so that this can help others with the same car which are driving around in numbers.

 

The temp outside right now is -20C and it ranges from -30C to +35/40C so i gotta take a look into this. When i drive for about 1.5h i do notice that the trans performance kind of goes to crap no matter what...im assuming because of the change in fluid viscosity when hot.

So im draining everything that will come out which will be about half of the total fluid. How much total fluid fits?

2 quarts Redline Racing
1 quart Redline Lightweight racing

if the above is half then the rest will be Z1 and in total I get:
50% Z1
17% Redline Lightweight Racing
33% Redline Racing

Also yes, i will make sure i report in with what happens ill make notes.

 

Part of the problem is when hot is FM can get "more slippery". This is part of the reason it's so bad. The harder you work the trans, the less holding power the stock fluid will give you. The non FM fluid will make it more consistent for sure. It will always shift harder when cold and softer when hot but it won't be a large of a gap.

 

Yea i notice there is a sweet spot between cold and too hot where it shifts nicer.
Having a thicker fluid won't affect the way my car starts up just the initial shifting while cold...if its harsh but not bad for my trans i dont care.

 

And..i'm still looking for the stuff every place in the whole city doesn't sell any. All they got is Royal Purple and I think Amsoil.

 

Amsoil "super shift" will work great.

 

As well as redline or what?
It says high torque applications (monster trucks)..so this is no prob?
And it says non-slip im assuming no F-Modifiers as you suggested?

The Kinematic Viscosity is about the same as Z1 7.1cSt so thats good.

 

Would be great to have more 2G owners chime in. It'll be a few days till i can get my hands on Redline....Amsoil doesn't seem as attractive.

Cant afford a screw up, I drive my family around in this car often.

You remember specifically what you used in that 99 TL so i can make some comparisons?

 

All type f fluids will shift the same. I used a no name brand in the '99. Both amsoil and redline are great. Redline has a slight edge on the type of base oil. They are so close that I would use whichever one is more convienent.

 

Dude "I hate Cars" knows his stuff. 3rd gens have their random failures too so the fluids they use to prevent failures worked because 2nd gens were using them. If you want red line. Order of internet and that's that. Aimsoil says hi torque applications meaning your car too. The torque is too high for stock clutch plates so your transmission is in that classification.

 

If I switch to Redline ATF, is it necessary to remove the old fluid with a 3x3 or can I just do a 1x3 and gradually remove the old?

 

Economically, gradulally remove the old. 3x3 is a better way to do it, if cost is not an issue.

 

It's all the same as long as you do at least 3 drains and fills. No worries about mixing. You can do a 1x3 now and wait a year or you can do all 3 in an hour. As long as you drive it in between changes and hit every gear including lockup at least once you're fine.

The biggest difference will be the first drain and fill. After that you will still feel a difference each time but not as much.

The cooler line method is actually much better. If the 2g has a cooler you can have 100% new fluid using only 8 quarts of fluid where a 3x3 gives roughly 80% new fluid with 9 quarts.

 

gen2 lacks a seperate external cooler,,maybe thats why acura made the 3x3
plan-
which according to the book: is for IF you add any amount of dextron3 to the system,
it must all be washed out with a full change.. plus some


IHC- how much type F is dex3?

 

01, Have you used Redline's ATF? I think I read earlier in the thread you were going to get some.

I have a new trans with 40,000k miles. Ive been doing a 1x3 with Z1 every 10-15k miles with no problems. If redline is a better fluid Id like to give it a try.

 

i got a 2g 2002 with 50 thousand miles. Fluid changed regularly... Not to many problems with a shudder.. Maybe Every once in a while...Would you recommend the swap to redline.

 

It's a good idea even if the car is new. Even if it's not having issues, a type F fluid will quicken shifts and greatly reduce clutch pack wear. By the time you get the shudder, clutches are worn already.

Let me stress, Redline is probably the best out there but any Type F fluid will do. You don't have to pay $10 a quart, you can use the cheap stuff down at the autoparts store also.

The thing is, changing Z1 every 1,000 miles won't help. It's loaded with friction modifiers which make it a terrible fluid for these cars. You need to get rid of the friction modifiers with a type F fluid.

 

What makes an ATF, "Type F"?

 

No friction modifiers. Friction modifiers are a "slipperiness" additive designed to soften shifts. They also greatly reduce holding power of the clutches. It would be like driving a 6mt with your foot on the clutch pedal the whole time.

Otherwise type f can be synthetic, dino, thick, thin, etc.

 

Auto Transmission Fluid bro... ha ha ha !!! Even the bottles say that so seemed obvious. Follow now I hope that helps.

 

Honda knows better what fluid is best for the tranny. The question is why do they keep using the z1. I am sure they didn't mean to use z1 so the tranny can go out sooner and cover the repair under warranty.

Friction Modifier, means adding additional additives and agents to the fluid. so, it costs more for honda to do so. Non FM, means cheaper in a sense as there no additional additives and agents. Let say Non FM is better, but wouldn't Honda worry about other parts going bad sooner if such additives and agens are not present.

 

The friction modifiers in an ATF are for the sole purpose of softening shifts. If you're talking about hard part wear, there are other extreme pressure additives that take care of metal to metal wear and then there's the oil itself.

Honda screwed up plain and simple. They have to know by now. Their new fluid seems to have a bit less FM in it. Too bad it took them 10 years. A manufacturer's goals are to sell cars. I can assure you that comfort comes before longevity.

 

This thread has inspired me to order some Redline racing ATF.

 

I got rid of the Z1 by doing the Redline racing 3X3, let me tell you guys it transformed my car. You will love it. Shifts are quicker and it feels like I'm putting more power to the ground now. I am REALLY glad I did this. Many thanks to "I Hate Cars"! I think the way to go for the newbees is headers, CAI, lightweight crank pulley and a Redline 3X3.

 

Very nice quarter mile time on auto. I bet the times drop now even further with the fluid change in the transmission. Go line her up ASAP.

 

Another day of searching and they do not have Amsoil Super Shift just the regular stuff and some other crap.
At the end I found some nice Asian guy who owns this performance/race shop who is going to order Redline if not Amsoil stuff for me. He says all they use in their manual race cars is non-slip stuff...i will further inquire.

Also, the local Canadian Tire shop wouldn't touch the car, I laughed cause the guy looked scared as he was telling me they were afraid to be the last ones to touch it, all i wanted was drain of 3 quart and fill 3 quart. .

 

Thats where you should have went in the 1st place. Performance stuff are easily found at performance shops... Glad you found it and your shifting probs will soon be gone... we hope. Make sure you post a review.

 

Ok, I put in 3 quarts of Amsoil Super Shift. Been a while but we were snowed in pretty hard so couldnt test things till now. Everything seems a little tighter, shifts are smoother...i do notice it revs a little high before shifting but thats not too bad at all. There is no more shudder and I have done my best to make it shudder but it didnt, that is awesome. Gonna post more when i get more time and maybe do another 1x3...

 

please remind us of your symptoms
did you have the shudder shift into 2nd and 3rd at low rpm?

 

Hey IHC thank you for all the advice on this issue. I only had one question. On the 99 that you were working on, was he throwing any tranny codes? I have a lot of the same symptoms but just got the P0740 code. I have had no shutter issues but I do get the lag between shifts. Hoping that a 3x3, pressure switch change and cleaning the solenoid screens may clear that code. Just wondering if its worth it at this point. Thanks again for all your advice

 

Hey, basically I started getting frequent shudder going into 3rd and 4th, I did notice that this was happening when i was accelerating lightly so yea lower RPMs. I also had flare i guess its called my RPMs would climb a little high before it would shift. Also the general trans performance/shifting would go to crap after a longer trip, i guess because of the heat.

I did a 1x3 of Amsoil Super Shift a week ago. Then another 1x3 just yesterday. The first eliminated shudder and a little flare and the second reduced the flare a little more.

Things are much improved...no more shudder, smoother shifts, and I went for a 120km trip last night and shifts were way more consistent/improved start to end.

So: From what I figured out------------------------------------

- Delayed shifting (time between gears)
+ Fixed with 3rd/4th pressure switch replacement a while back.

- Shudder/Flare/Crappy Shifting on long trip
+ Fixed with 2x3 (so far) Amsoil Super Shift trans fluid.

This is on a 2000 TL with 205k.---------------------------------

The best thing of all I can drive without easing off the accelerator to make it shift without shudder.

Thanks to all especially IHC for all the help. Hopefully this lasts. .

 

that part when the rpm increases is called Slipping--
ease off the throttle and let the trans engage when it happens

you are describing worn clutch pack issues--be gentle and start thinking about your options

when its a problem after driving a while- thats clutch material clogging the TC outlet screen filters and not letting fluid flow--let it rest 30-60 minutes and it will drive again until crud clogs..

try another 3 qts of new fluid and the external trans filter- if not replaced yet
trans capacity is 7.3 so you are still carrying old fluid mixed with good new fluid

 

The RPMs increases if you accelerate harder getting more power out of the gear, the car delays the shifts to do this. If you let off the accelerator the car senses that you not trying to accelerate as hard and shifts up earlier. If there was that much slip wouldn't there be shudder instead of a smooth shift?
What is average shift on your car?
For me at average accel:
1-2 @15-20km/h 2400rpm
2-3 @40km/h 2500rpm
3-4 @55-60km/h 2500rpm
4-5 @ about 80-90km/h simmilar RPMs
These are just what I noticed most of the time, they vary of course with acceleration and such.