Big Dom

And if I need to grab an ecm from ebay, I believe this is correct version?
pretty sure my car is Cali emissions.

whitetiger5

you will have to reprogram the keys so that the pass the immobilizer check.

Big Dom

Oh OK, thank you. Will call honda tomorrow. But....if the ecm is bad, wouldn't it present other symptoms or issues or weird check engine light codes?
and about the main egr port......could anything foreign be there? Nuts, bolts, screw, plastic, candy bar, baby frog? I mean, even though i dont have a camera tool to see whats going on, i can see the top and bottom of the port openings are squeaky clean! So where is the restriction and what is it restricted with? You ever see these youtube videos? Where there is visible mountains of gunk at the egr port openings? Mine never looked like that....still doesnt....after using 600 cans of seafoam.
wondering if renting a shop vac would help? Or taking to a car wash and running the pressure hose through the port (although assuming water is a bad idea, especially around intake.....

Thefireball

To be honest, you issue doesn't seem to be related to the EGR. There's a lot of posts to go over to follow everything you've done and to remember what issue you're facing currently. But the fact of the matter, is that you've seemingly gone over everything related to it being an EGR issue. You have to keep in mind that CEL codes are clues, and not necessarily a direct answer to your issue. Something else could seemingly be going on, but it's presenting something else entirely as the issue. Again, to clue you in. X is really happening, but it's causing Y to happen, so it's giving you the clue to look at why Y is happening.

As the ECU going bad, I have had this happen before. I had a CEL randomly come on, and everytime I scanned for a code, there was no code. Resetting codes, and even pulling the battery from the car did not reset it. I do remember one time having a CEL for the EGR valve, and I don't remember if it was on that specific ECU that was having issues or not. But the bad ECU still worked perfectly fine. Car drove with no issues. Why it went bad, I have no clue. But I replaced it, had it programmed, and everything was normal again.

Edit: Forgot to mention, have you tried resetting the codes? You could have maybe fixed the issue, but the ECU is still displaying the error and won't automatically remove it sometimes just because you fixed it.

Big Dom

Thank you, fireball! I tend to agree.....I cleaned the ports so many times, i could serve you dinner on them (im making lasagna tonight).

Yes. Reset computer a few times. By holding the positive and negative cables together for an hour and also by pulling the clock fuse for an hour........

Thefireball

Don't need to hold the cables together. Just disconnect both for like 10 seconds or more, and you should be good. Clock fuse is also good, especially if you have a radio like mine that requires going through the set up each time the power is disconnected (annoying).

Again, I'll look through your posts again to see what's going on so as to come up with ideas as to what you could look for and check. I'm the DIY type, and would personally avoid dealerships at all costs. They love to charge a lot, and often will say your car is fixed, or say they couldn't figure out the issue, only leaving you with the issue to being present still (interminnent issues that never seem to appear when you finally take it in to get checked out ).

If you want to make it easier on me and others, maybe detail what the issue originally was, what you've done, what's been fixed, and what you're currently facing still.

Big Dom

Thinking a used ECM from ebay is next. I did this years ago when I had to replace my fuel pressure regulator. Everything worked out. I guess u never know what u get on ebay but.......
gotta make sure I get the right part. i will check label again, i believe i have cali emmissions which means the part number ends in L55 (which replaced L53 and L54)......

Big Dom

Fireball - you are right. The dealer likes to charge big bucks....and often doesn't fix the issue.

SUMMARY
Nov 2023
Check engine light
1 code for transmission clutch switch
1 code for egr insufficient flow

Replaced transmission clutch switch. Code never came back.

Cleaned main egr port. Didn't realize I had six small ports and 1 main. Later I eventually cleaned the other 6. When I FIRST cleaned the ports, i did not notice gunk or crud or visible restriction. But I cleaned anyway. Several cans of seafoam. Deep creep, too. Pb blaster. Berryman12 cleaner. More cleaner. More cleaner. Aresol cleaner. Compressed air. Wire brush. Pipe cleaner. Straw cleaner. Screw driver up and down. Coat hanger up and down. Bicycle brake cable up and down. More cleaner.

Code wouldn't go away. Comes back on quickly after resetting computer. Like, within 5 miles.

Purchased duralast egr valve. Code still wouldn't go away.

Took to my mechanic (I like, trust him, does good work). Said ports are clear. Said duralast valves are shit. Said to purchase OEM Honda EGR valve. If that doesn't work, he said it's the computer.

I then replaced egr valve with honda oem found at junkyard. Code still didn't clear. Then bought a standard motor egr valve. Code still didn't clear.

Cleaned ports again. And again. And again. The only thing I will say, and maybe this is nothing: when I pour a can of seafoam down the top port (on intake), the fluid pooled and sat on the intake.....I thought it would run down and out the lower egr port opening (where the valve itself sits). Made me wonder....is something restricted there? So cleaned more and used more compressed air. Code still present.

Bought Honda OEM EGR valve (bit the $240 bullet). Cleaned port again (to best of my ability....Im sure its not as great as what the dealer could do with their specialized tools and process?) .

Code still present. Egr insufficient flow.

Car runs fine. Seems to run better when CEL is not on. Seems to be sluggish a bit when the light is on....seems to chug a little too (like an exhaust chug). Could be my imagination. But always.....the car runs fine. And after the cleanings and the white smoke parade around the neighborhood, it felt like it ran brand new.

Hope that helps. Sincere apologies for driving folks crazy and for the 1000 posts. Theere are some really good folks on here trying to help and I appreciate them immensely.

Thefireball

I've got a couple of spare auto ECUs for testing before I converted my CL to a 6 speed. Still have the bad one, somewhere. It's certainly worth a try. There is an alternative to going to some one for programming, but it's not something to openly discuss due to obvious security concerns. What I can say is that I've had EGR issues in the past, and it was on & off again. It eventually just went away with driving the car. Seems you were having this issue too. Perhaps with all the cleaning that's been done, it just needs to be driven. Maybe give 'er a little gas? Sometimes redlining is good for a motor. Can really help clean things out.

Something I was thinking about that I'm not sure you've done. The EGR valve connects to the coolant passage, which is connected to the side of the front cylinder head. The head has a passage that runs through the intake runners, and into the intake manifold. Have you only cleaned the intake manifold passages & the beginning of the EGR valve passage? I read that you were using pipe cleaners, but were you able to truly get deep enough to clean the inside passages of the head & runners? I mean, if you spray a cleaner through the top of the EGR passage into the manifold, it should start flowing out through where the EGR valve is. This could tell you whether or not there is a restriction, or even how much of a restriction there is.

If there is a restriction, then you'll probably need to remove the manifold and coolant passage. Manifold is easy, but the coolant passage will be a messy endeavour that I always hate doing it. It's not hard to remove, but you'll always have some coolant leak, even if you drain the block/heads & radiator.

I still don't necessarily think your issue is EGR related at this point. It could be electrical. Perhaps a lose pin in a plug that connects to the EGR? Could explain an intermittent issue if that's the case. Movement of the car could cause movement of the pin, causing to constantly connect/disconnect. Had a similar issue with the auto trans plugs and shifting sporadically into gears.

As to the reason why, at least I believe, why the EGR issue is so prevalent is because of oil constantly getting into the manifolds. It's similar to how your nose works. You've got hairs in your nose, and they're catching dirt, dust, and debris as you inhale oxygen. Your nose produces mucus, which captures all of these things, and in turn creates boogers as it dries.
Same thing happens to the EGR. Oil gets into the manifold, and into the EGR passages. EGR recycles exhaust smoke, capture all of the smoke, and mixes with the oil. With it constantly being exposed to air flow & heat, it'll eventually dry and harden into a mass if not cleaned out in time. Red lining can help clear out things when it's still wet, but once it's that hard mass, you're going to have to chisel it out.



Here's the EGR passages on the side of a head. These are from a dual VTEC RL heads, so they're a bit different, but the overall EGR design didn't really change much over the years. Just something to look into while I continue thinking of others options.

Just don't exhaust and frustrate yourself focusing on it possibly being one thing (EGR). It'll cause you to just get frustrated, and saying "fuck it", and cause you to possibly doing something wreckless and doing more damage than good. Try and understand how the whole system works, and then look into other possibilities as to what could be causing the issue.

Thefireball

This specifically is what I said to try in my last post. You very well could have a restriction in the head/runners. It should flow right down to where the EGR valve is. Perhaps look into this. But again, removing that coolant passage sucks. It's not necessarily hard to do. Couple of hoses to disconnect, and like 5 or 7 bolts. Gotta wedge/pry it off usually. It's draining the coolant that sucks, and it getting everywhere.

If you do remove it, you might want to go ahead and just get a new rubber O-ring for the coolant pipe that runs through the middle of the block. They tend to break easily if they're old, and it's really annoying fitting everything back together, only for coolant to leak right there. I usually put some WD-40 on the O-ring to make fitting it back into the coolant passage easier, and less risk of it getting pinched & pulled out of place.

Big Dom

Great photo! If I had the skills to get to those sections, that would be awesome. I looked at that section and said to myself "how can I get in there". Maybe that is what needs the cleaning. Because as you said, maybe I didn't get down further enough. As far as redlining....after every dumping of seafoam and cleaner, I took on highway and put pedal to floor. Fun smoke show!!!

Thefireball

Always love running seafoam, but I'm sure my neighbors don't lol. Did it on my mother's Jeep compass that she had bought new back in like '07. Cleaned it out like a year or two ago for the first time. Looked like some one had done a burn out in the parking lot. Couldn't see shit lol.

It's really not that hard to do, but I get it if you're not necessarily mechanically inclined and unsure of what you're doing. But again, you did say it was pooling in the manifold and not coming out of where the EGR valve was. So it sure does sound like you have a restriction.

If you need, I can post a diagram of how the manifold comes off, and same for the coolant passage, if you're willing to take on this endeavour. It always seems like a lot at first, but I enjoy learning and growing my skills, even if all my plans don't always come to fruition (3 dead J35A3 motors, with one having been 'rebuilt' myself. Shouldn't have raced that mustang before properly breaking it in, and should have replaced the oil more often.)

Edit: Closer up pic that 619rcr just sent me.


Left and right ports are for EGR. Middle is for coolant.

Big Dom

Makes sense. Great explanation, Fireball. That head/runner/chamber would be ideal to get to......at this point, perhaps that's where we are best suited to investigate. With 235k miles, I imagine it could use a good cleaning.
thing is...I am not best to do this job. Being honest....
So may have to go to dealer or independent mechanic. I could just ask that they perform this specific service/cleaning.
But for now, is my next step: replace ECM or clean head/runner/chamber or both?

Big Dom

Great photo!! if we have a restriction, it has to be in that area. Almost certain. Again, if it's restriction and not ECM related.
question: if acura dealer performs the "clean egr port service", do you think their tools/process would be able to clear restriction if the restriction is where we suspect? Or,,would i need to tell them to specifically perfoem this action?

Thefireball

I mean, that depends on how much you're looking to spend, really. The actual removing of parts is pretty easy, but a mechanic will charge you quite a bit. Maybe $500? I don't know how much services cost, because I do all of my own work. But an ECU, maybe $50, Acura to program it, could vary from between $100-$500 maybe? Again, unsure of prices of services. A locksmith can also program it, but they've gone up in price, and we're wanting to charge me $150+ for programming. I had paid $100 in the past, and after hearing new prices, I decided to settle for the alternative path.

Also to add to this, I once considered going to Acura to have my ECU programmed. Closest dealership is about an hour away. They wanted to hold my car for 3 fucking days, and I think they wanted to charge about $300 or $500? My memory is shit, and it's been awhile. I literally asked if I could show up, swap it out, and have them program to save me the money on labor. They said no. It literally takes like 5 minutes to program.
I'm sure they would have the tools, yes. Problem is, dealerships aren't always the best. Sure, they know the car best, but that doesn't stop some one from being a lazy asshat and saying they did something, but actually didn't. Hell, they could disconnect all the parts, just eye ball it and say it's good when it's not.

Now obviously, I'm biased and dislike dealerships and other people touching my car. I've had some good and bad experiences. Not trying to scare you and say you're experience will inherently be bad. Us INTPs just tend to look at all possibilities, both good and bad. It's both a benefit, and a detriment at the same time lol. But I would specifically tell them to look in those locations and test to see if there is a blockage anywhere in there. Maybe ask for some pics, videos, or to see in person for yourself to confirm that it is or isn't it. Hell, maybe connect a couple pipe cleaners, and see how far down you can stick it through passage from the manifold side. You'll eventually hit that 'zigzag' wall, but if you wiggle it enough, you might be able to get through. If not, well, there's your blockage.

If you notice on the right passage, it has a sort of turn. I've noticed that this is typically where a lot of blockage happens. It is basically having to zigzag and hit against walls instead of flowing smoothly.

Big Dom

If I go about having the header/runner cleaned, I would take to my mechanic. He specializes in Honda/Acura and I trust him. He's sharp. If I told him to do that specific task, I am sure he would do it and charge me appropriately. He charges $120/hr. labor.
acura told me they will program ECM for $150. Said it would take under 1 hour.

Thefireball

I'd take your personal mechanic over the dealership honestly. Crazy how they wanted to hold my car for 3 days, but will say they can do it in an hour for you. Guess it depends on how many cars they have to service and depends on where you're located. They were being real frustrating over the phone as well. Really left me feeling negative about them in general. Doesn't help reading about all the negative reviews on here about them over the years. Chalk it up to confirmation bias I guess.

Plus, as an Acura 'mechanic' myself, I always try to make sure I do the best helping some one else out with their cars. Hate people getting screwed over, and always want to help people understand what the issue exactly is. Would like to make it a legitimate business out of it eventually. Point being, smaller mechanics are typically going to be more honest as they're actually trying to make a living, compared to a dealership who just gets paid anyway they see fit. Doesn't mean they won't be scummy still.
Had one shop swap my auto trans when I first got my car and didn't know jack about working on them Found out during my 6 speed swap, they angle grinded the hell out of my subframe for the trans mount. Guess they couldn't get a stuck bolt off. Left some cut marks, a big ass hole, and the cuts were rusting. Got pics of it in my 6 speed swap. But I'm just ranting at this point lol.

I would say check the EGR ports first, since you already said it was pooling up. Maybe revisit that trick again. You didn't mention if you had the EGR valve off during this, but I imagined you would have. If it doesn't flow through the EGR valve port, maybe even adding some air pressure to it some how (maybe a straw and your mouth to blow, or an air compressor?), then you know for sure you have a blockage. If you swap out the ECU and nothing changes, then it'll just have been a waste of time and money.

Big Dom

Would I have to take the whole intake off and up, as shown in your photo? Or can I get to those 2 ports from the side...removing bolts.......side access?

Thefireball

Getting to the side portion of the passage would be best. That zigzagged wall is the toughest part, and going through the top won't exactly be the easiest to see what exactly is going on. However, you can attempt to check things through the top.

Removing the intake manifold is pretty easy. If you can get to at least the runners, it'll give you a much better look at what's happening inside, as you could shine a light down it. It'd also give you more room to stick something down there. Perhaps stick a pipe cleaner through, see how far down it goes into the passage, grab the pipe cleaner where it stops, pull it out, and compare to the passage on the outside of it. Just an idea.

Alternatively, you could also remove the runners themselves. They're a bit of a pain to get out admittedly. Those nuts and bolts are in hard to access spots. But removing them would give you a clear view through the passages, and would show you what the passage looks like on one part of the head.

It's probably a bit more than you're expecting to do. But you should at least be able to remove the manifold on your own if you wanted to attempt that.

Big Dom

UPDATE

Friday or Saturday, I am going to pull the top manifold up and perform ONE LAST CLEANING. This time, I will take photos and videos to share with the kind folks on here, so that extra eyes can see if I missed something. Thank you!

Big Dom

GONNA BE FUN!!!!

Big Dom

UPDATE

I think we may have resolved the issue (fingers crossed).

I say this because during my last and final cleaning of the top intake manifold and egr ports, this time, something was different.
You may recall I talked about cleaner fluid pooling at top of intake / egr port. Happened today, too. Was going to take a photo but decided on using my pipe/straw cleaners more and more. Then, I took HOT water and slowly poured down into the top egr port. ALL OF A SUDDEN, it was like the sea parted! The water rushed down and out the bottom of the egr port (lower port hole next to exhaust hole). This is the first time this happened. At that moment, I thought if this is fixed, I now know the moment when. So I continued pouring seafoam down the top port and letting it sit. Then hot water down the top port. Rinse and repeat. Used aresol cans to clean port too, except this time there was a noticeable sound. Like the aresol cleaner was making its way where it needed to go. No restriction. Just a nice flowing sound. So more seafoam and more hot water. Lots of crap came out. Dirty grimey yuck gunk! Repeated this multiple times until the hot water was clear. Then took a shop vac and sucked access water out of port (both directions). Took for test drive (after resetting ECM), no code present. Runs strong!






Tonight I will head to casino. We will see if the CEL returns.

For the first time, I am feeling CONFIDENT.

#HOTWATER!!!!!

THANK YOU AND STAY TUNED.

whitetiger5

You make me worried using water around parts that lead inside of an engine.

fingers crossed for you!

Thefireball

Congrats on fixing the issue, and managing to wrestle the manifold off.

I wouldn't worry too much. Water in the motor wouldn't have enough time to rust anything internally, and would have been pushed out or burned away first start. Evaporated once warmed to operating temp and sitting for a bit.
Could effect piston rings, but I highly doubt it.

Big Dom

I was very careful with the water. Made sure I didn't get any (much) down the intake.

No CEL lightmlast night after driving around. Will see what today brings!

If I can get past this, I may consider investing more in the car. May have the oil pump seal (and oil filter gasket while there) replaced/fixed. Seems like the leak is getting slightly worse. Or at least I'm noticing more on the garage floor (but not on the dipstick, so that's good). I can't really wait for next timing belt job.....had that done not long ago (under 30k miles ago).
I suspect mechanic will charge me at least $500 labor but we'll see. Then maybe in 2024 I will look into cosmetic items such as new body paint. Who knows, maybe since it's a well maintained 2000, it will one day be worth more than it is now.

Thanks!!!!

Jon M

Dang, busy for a few days and I missed a lot. Congratulations on solving your problem. Not sure what the water will do though. Never thought of using boiling water although it works well for grease clogged plumbing.

Saudade

Nicely Done!!!

whitetiger5

@Domenic Ricci Finally! glad to see you got it resolved! Can you elaborate more on where the blockage was; in the intake manifold or the lower intake runner (injector holder per the parts site)?

Also "the sea parted" what happened here? i am assuming you poured some hot water in the port and saw very little flow then all at once a blockage was removed and build up water suddenly rushed out? Was there any carbon or solid material that accompanied this?

More details the better for others that may find themselves struggling here...

Big Dom

Do you think I am out of the woods regarding the "water" usage? I was careful not to let water flow down into the intake openings, although some did trickle down the opening nearest to top EGR port opening. There was a higher amount (good amount) of water that flowed down into the exhaust opening (opening next to bottom egr opening, where egr valve sits). Car runs fine; actually runs very well. I do have a slight "chugging" (was there before) when at idle. I may find a place that gives a free exhaust system inspection. Maybe I have a small leak somewhere?

Thefireball

Like I mentioned before, water getting into the combustion portion of the engine is fine, as long as it hasn't sat in the cylinder for long. The biggest concern would be damage to the piston rings or cylinder walls. The piston has a couple set of rings for creating a seal, and oil scraping rings that bring up oil behind the piston when going up to lubricate the walls, and it gets pushed back through holes in the piston, scraping the oil off of the walls, and back into the crank case. The cylinder walls have very very small grooves to capture some of the oil, keeping them lubricated for the metal piston rings. If this oil was not there, the cylinder walls & rings would wear themselves down very quickly, and oil would get past the rings, and your motor would quickly kill itself. The J37's are known for having oil consumption issues, though, I don't think it's ever been said as to why, as Honda won't say why themselves. So it's all speculation.

Now the water could have gotten in the way of the oil that lubricates the cylinder walls, and even has a chance to have gotten past the rings, and into your oil, contaminating things. Oil & water don't mix, and more than likely, the water would be sitting at the top of the oil in pan. The pick up tube sits below, and so I doubt it would have actually sucked water, which would flow throughout the motor. You really don't want water getting into places where oil acts as a barrier for metal on metal contact, like your crankshaft, connecting rods, camshafts, and so on. Water is not a good lubricant.

Considering you started the car up just fine and it's running, I highly doubt the water has damaged anything at all. It would have immediately burned off the water in the cylinders, if not pushed out during it's up stroke. Warming the motor up to operating temperature, plus driving, would evaporate any water on and in the engine due to the prolonged exposure to heat.

If you are at all worried about water contaminating the internals of your motor, then I would suggest doing an oil change, and seeing for any water being separated in the oil as it's coming out. But I would highly doubt water made it's way past those rings. If the water were to have sit for a period of time, it would cause rust in places. I don't think I need to explain why rust on your rings or walls would be bad; it's self explanatory.

Keep in mind, that I have heard stories, and even known people, who have flooded their engines driving through flooded areas. This hydrolocks the engine, causing the pistons to not even move up & down as it has to now fight the water pressure on top of the added vacuum that cylinders & pistons form. Even though, once they got the water out, their motors started and ran fine.