Boulder GT3

If you couple the low sales numbers with the poor C&D review this month there are not a lot of good indicators. This is a very competitive segment and I think they need increase value not discount. My suggestions:

Come out with some kind of a "sportline" flavor to broaden the range of appeal. By and large, enthusiasts don't consider the RL in the same league as an A6 or 5. It would do a better job of keeping the migrating TL owners in camp too.

Fix the quality problems and take care of current customers. For all of the complaints, justified, about BMW they quietly increased warranties to 7 years on the some of the 745's and E46 M3's that had problems.

Stop the discounting and subsidize inclusive service. Look at the MB #'s. They have quietly slid away from the service plans and Acura could reach some of that market by offering a "full" high end treatment.


The RL feels lost in space and the numbers support if. I've had 2 NSX's, 3 Legends and my wife drives a TL now. I loved the NSX's and Legends and I'm pretty so so on the TL. I thought about buying an RL but the dealer was marking them up $5K when I was in the market. Phew, glad I didn't do that. I'm an enthusiast and past Acura fan but I'm drifting. I doubt it's happening to just me.

jhr3uva90

First, Acura needs an identity. What does the average person think when she hears Acura? In some cases, the response might be "What's Acura?" Lexus is known as a luxury brand, not a sporty-car brand. That's why they can sell the GS, which is not particularly sporty, in larger numbers than the Infiniti M. BMW is known as a sporty-car brand ("The Ultimate Driving Machine") and Infiniti is trying to build a similar brand. What's Acura trying to be, cars for gadget fiends? If so, they need a slogan and an image that emphasizes geek cred. Personally, I think Acura DEALERS (not Acura corporate) want to be the folks who sell "near-luxury" cars for less than the competition. Clearly, that approach isn't working.

Water-S

I think it's just a weak economy. People are holding on to their cars longer. people don't have the money to go out and get a 30 or 40 grand ride.

jhr3uva90

I agree, and Acura customers are more likely to hold off on acquiring new cars during times of perceived economic uncertainty.

mrdeeno

Disagree...all models would be subject to the same market conditions as the RL.

If the market condition was weak, then its rivals (especially the Euro's) would suffer also. Actually, since the RL is the most value-conscious of the group, RL sales would probably BENEFIT from a weaker economy.

jhr3uva90

Acura customers tend to be more money conscious than, say, Mercedes customers. Therefore, if economic conditions look shaky, Acura customers are more likely to hold off on a purchase. To put it this way, a Mercedes customer generally won't switch to Acura because money is tight. Instead the Mercedes customer will get the car s/he wanted anyway, or downgrade to another class of Mercedes if necessary. Under similar conditions, an Acura customer would probably decide to just not buy an Acura and buy a Honda instead, or just hold off on car purchases altogether.

ilas

I know of someone who was about to buy a TL, but decided instead to get an accord hybrid to save some cash.....

jhr3uva90

Nothing wrong with buying an Accord to save some money. That's how Acura customers are, and there's nothing wrong with being thrifty. Unfortunately, thrifty people don't often buy $50K vehicle and want that vehicle to have everything under the sun when they do. How many Acura customers out there have been complaining because the RL is not a full-size, RWD car with a V8 for $50K? Mercedes or Lexus customers don't have those kinds of expectations.

mrdeeno

Of course MB and Lexus customers wouldn't complain about a full-size RWD car w/ a v8...they could get one from MB or Lexus.

The reason people complain that the RL isn't RWD or offer a v8 is BECAUSE it isn't rwd and doesn't offer a v8. If it did, no one can complain!

The full size thing doesn't make sense, but the RWD/v8 thing does.

mrdeeno

This is one of Acura's big problems.

They need to reach those customers that care less about VALUE than what a car has to offer. Those customers are less likely to be swayed by market conditions and are more likely to buy a car just because they like the way it looks.

Again, I think Acura gives it's potential buyers too much credit and Acura thinks they will buy a good car for the right reasons. But in the $50k range, very few people buy their cars for the right reasons and until Acura realizes this, they won't be capturing these buyers.

jhr3uva90

Again, I agree. That's why Acura needs to promote the RL heavily and effectively. Personally, I think Acura should have found a way to link the RL with tomorrow's Oscars. According to an article in the current Fortune magazine, Toyota provided 5 chauffeur-driven Priuses for the 2003 Oscars. Why can't Acura do that for tomorrow's Oscars? Having a big star jump out of an RL would be more effective for image building than advertising.

Oh and another thing about Acura buyers: not only would they want RWD and a V8, but they would want it for well below $50K. That's just how we are. We want the everything, including the kitchen sink, for a relatively low price.

mrdeeno

I think they can do this, considering other automakers can do a v8 mid-size luxury sedan under $50k, albeit depending on options packages.

I'm sure they can offer a v8 and still undercut the v8 competition. This is Honda, and they've done some amazing things in the past, and they continue to do amazing things, but their marketing is ineffective and they have lost touch with potential customers simply because they are too conservative and even cocky to a point.

jhr3uva90

Really?

Mercedes E500 starts at $58,400.
BMW 550i starts at $57,400.
Audi A6 4.2 Quattro $53,770.
Lexus GS 430 $51,375.

I would love to see a V8 in the RL. Let's say a V8 was ready in time for the 2007 RL. Unfortunately, the RL would be the only Acura that could accommodate such an engine at this time. That would probably make a V8 RL very expensive, due to the lack of an economy of scale to spread the cost. If people are whining about a $50K RL, they would REALLY whine about a $55K RL with a V8.

Another alternative, of course, would be to put such an engine in the next MDX as well as an RL. That would help spread the cost, but when will a new MDX arrive? Would Honda be able to implement a V8 in both vehicles at the same time? And could Acura somehow keep the cost of a V8 MDX and a V8 RL close to $50K? Most of all, could Acura dealers sell or service such machines?

jhr3uva90

Basically Acura needs to reduce the MSRP and increase the advertising. Putting 18 inch wheels and ventilated seats wouldn't hurt, either.

ilitig8

I have encountered an interesting stereotype of Acura with the profession I am in and the others I come in contact with (like physicians). Being an avid car guy and always up to chat about vehicles. I have heard more than once Acura being called a "wife car". Classic example is my father in law (surgeon) only somewhat of a car guy and when he first moved up to high line cars he bought a MB (no surprise) when it came time to replace his wifes car 2 years later they bought a Legend which he never failed to rave about as a great car and a MUCH better value for the money, equaling the Euros at a much better price. Then 2 years later when time to replace his MB he made a call to me and had me working him a deal on a 740IL, didn't even consider a LS, Q or God forbid an Acura, it was of course a "wife car". Though I had never considered it Acura may have cultivated a cult of thrift, by doing this they have severely weakened their brand equity and they will have to either live with a 45K cap on car sales or do something outside their personality to woe people that buy cars with their heart not their head, those are the people that make an upscale car line a hit.

jhr3uva90

Excellent point. I wonder if Acura has what it takes to overcome the stereotype. Or maybe Honda is just happy that Acura is there so they can spread the cost of the Global Midsize Platform?

mrdeeno

Yes, really...you left out the cars w/ v8's that could be had under $50k.

M45 starts at $47,150
STS v8 starts at $47,520

So yes, other automakers can REALLY offer v8 sedans in this segment under $50k.

mrdeeno

I don't think they want to overcome the stereotype. And if they did, their actions and decisions really don't show it.

ilas

oops, my wife is a physician and she tells people that the RL is my car.....

jhr3uva90

What comes with the Infiniti M or Cadillac STS V8? Also, bear in mind that Acura's V8 would most likely need to be mated with AWD, so the price would be closer to the A6 4.2's.

ilas

Av8 RL in the mid 50s would probably still sell, as it would at least differentiate the v8 RL from other cars in the Acura lineup. Maybe some TL owners who could afford the RL would then step up because they perceived enough of a difference between the TL and Rl even despite the higher cost. However, a v8 RL would need to capture buyers of other brands for it to be worth it for Honda. Whether it would or not is debateable given the discussion we have had ad nauseam about brand image.

jhr3uva90

Good point. I still think Acura would have to offer TL owners the world in a car before they spend $50K, though.

msu79gt82

I agree with your logic.

The redesigned 2nd Gen '07 MDX will be released this Fall (I hear Sept/Oct). It has been confimed that there will be a Sport package, but know one knows exactly what that means.

msu79gt82

Not sure I fully agree about the wife-car part of your comments; but I whole-heartedly agree with this part. I believe that many people consider (I know that I do) Acura a "best-bang-for-the-buck" brand. That's why I bought an '01 loaded MDX and an '02 loaded TL-S w/ Nav and why we traded the '01 MDX for another MDX ('04).

Both with the '01 and the '04 MDX I considered them the ideal vehicles at the time regardless and price and thus consider them great values. But I must confess that the competition is much more heated now and whereas I still may get anoter MDX, I'm not sure it will be another regardless of price situation. The '02 TL-S absoluetly was "best-bang-for-the-buck" purchase - it was a good deal for me at the price but not a money is no object vehicle!!.

This is the very reason I chose not to get an RL. For me it was NOT a "best-bang-for-the-buck" at all (and others on tis site have said the same thing). For those who love the car and do not mind the price (and there are quit a few on this site) the RL is the car for them. But the competition at his price point is fierce.

ilas

Acura easily come close or even undercut these with options and a base model, which is what these cars have

ilas

I hope the sport package has BOTH a v8 and suspension/wheel upgrades. However, I fear what Acura will do is simply have a suspension/wheel package. Our MDX will be in need of replacing within a few years, so I am planning on checking out the redesigned one. Hard to say what we will do though, because the MDX is mainly my wife's car and she loves the new Mercedes M class. Her attitude is that SUVs are the only cars one should drive.

mrdeeno

Yes, but that is the point...it IS possible to equip a car in this segment with a v8 and price it below $50k.

It's ACURA's fault that they have to offer the RL fully equipped.

But the point is, Acura CAN offer a v8 in the RL and price it below $50k if they wanted (and if they had a v8).

msu79gt82

RE: Redesigned '07 MDX

I doubt a V8; but they could add SH-AWD and a SportShift transmission w/ Paddle Shifters

jhr3uva90

I thought the RDX was coming this fall and the MDX would come next year?

Power1Pete

When the new NSX super car, new SH-AWD TSX and new MDX come out in fall 2007, Acura's brand image will improve greatly. Hopefully, the V8 RL will be ready by then...

AltecBX

The TSX is not coming out with a awd. The next ride is the RDX, then the MDX, and then the TL in '09.

Water-S

no way will be ready by then. I work for Honda personally. Plus my dad works for Honda. We both work at the Engine plant. There's no way in 1.5 year we'd be ready even if they started building today. you're saying well hell it's 18 months why not?
#1. They have to actually build the area(which takes about a 8 months to a year depending on size and how many docks doors they put in and how they 'bend the line'
#2. Machines- they have to go to a machine builder and get them to build machines and install them
#3. getting the people trained and ready on their job..
#4. other smaller equipment installed ,ready and people trained how to operate it(like conveyers, fork lifts, tow motors,etc)
#5 what everyone loves PAPERWORK
#6. A lot of our suppliers are running at "full steam" so their running either 18 hours or some 24 hours a day 6 days a week. if you add a v-8 line they'd either have to run 24 hours 7 days a week or build on to current operations. again this takes time.

mrdeeno

Maybe they'll just pull a move from the Volvo playbook and use Yamaha V8 engines.

OR since they already supply v6 engines to GM, maybe GM will supply V8 engines to Honda

Power1Pete

You know, the GM Northstar V8 can be a good temporary solution for Honda.

However, there is no way anyone can jam the Northstar into the RL's engine bay...

Water-S

#1.won't happen GM doesn't meet Honda's quality standards. Honda has high quality standards.
#2.Plus the shipping cost would be UNGODLY. I assume the Northstar V-8 built in Detriot they'd have to design and make water tight crates to send the engines fully assembled across the pond in because the RL built in Japan. Salt water makes almost anything rust except stainless and a few other exotic metals. Plus the money invested of while the motors are "in transit" would be big too.
Honda/Acura is like most companies they want to make money as ethically fast as possible. if you got 5000 motors that takes a month to get across Pacific that's a lot of money tied up at sea.

Water-S

There's a story behind the Honda motor in the Saturn Vue. GM came to Honda said "we need a clean burning(for CA), reliable, V-6." Well Honda was pretty well maxed out. so they gave them this stupid high offer bid per motor. GM said "okay we'll take it."
This isn't a joint venture because they like each other. Honda did it only to make money and GM getting ass raped on the deal. Only thing GM gained on this is reliability on the motor,clean emmissions.

the Honda motor we supply to Saturn. sales of that is way down. I think in the next year or 2 GM cut that contract or let it run out. I saw where 400 Saturn employees in TN was laid off a couple days ago.

ilas

Everyone,

Honda is the number one producer of engines in the World (lawnmowers, power things, cars, motorcycles, etc). No way they let their image slip by taking someone else's motor. GM? Another Japanese brand like Yamaha? Please, that would be the ultimate losing face for Honda and a sign of weakness. Never gonna happen!

mrdeeno

that's funny, because when the SUV craze was in effect, Honda had to slap their badge on WHOLE CARS that weren't theirs just to try to get a piece while they try to catch up. that shows a lot more weakness than borrowing just an engine. And I'm only 28, so if I can remember that period it wasn't that long ago.

As for losing face, AS SOON as they have a production engine larger than the 3.5L v6, they will lose face because they have maintained and insisted that a larger engine is not needed.

History seems to be repeating itself...they maintained SUVs were a "fad" which is why they didn't enter this market...until they had to EAT THEIR WORDS and pull the Isuzu move until their own SUV was ready. They say they did this to "study" the market, which is a face-saving way of saying, "we studied the market and decided it's a fad...then we realized we fukked up!"

Nissan lost face and showed weakness when they were being re-structured by Ghosn....look at where they are now.

Honda may not be in dire-straits like Nissan was, but maybe that's the problem. they need a kick-in-the-ass to get them to start competing effectively with the top dogs, because it just seems like they are getting complacent.

ilas

Your talking about company financials and cars with the exception of the Isuzu thing which I doubt will ever be repeated. Also, that SUV did not involve a honda built body with someone else's engine. Honda's main claim to fame is the engines they produce, and they regularly push in adds how they are the number one volume engine producer. Mark it down, they will NOT take anyone's engine for a car built and designed by them.

mrdeeno

I agree, it's unlikely they'll use anyone else's engine.

But isn't it a SHAME that the NUMBER ONE engine producer hasn't produced a production auto engine larger than 3.5L, while companies that ARE NOT #1 quantity producer can produce great engines of all ranges and sizes?

GM can claim they are the #1 producer of automobiles...that still doesn't say anything about their cars.

honda can claim they out-produce the next nearest engine manufacturer by a billion units or a TRILLION units...they STILL don't have a v8!