psteng19

Sorry, I quickly read your post and thought you were talking about the RL sinking to Q45 levels.

jhr3uva90

No problem.

iNteGraz92

truth
too bad people will still make up weak excuses to make up for it.

Saintor

You are overlooking one important aspect. Appeal. Gotta-have it factor. Sorry to burst your bubble, but E-Class and 5-series are not selling on image alone. They sell better at higher price because they are more rewarding for the owners and the brand is more trusted as upscale. More offerings too.

Acura was too greedy at once, insisting on the wrong attributes; I hope that their RL product manager was fired.

jhr3uva90

So, where's the appeal of the Lexus GS, for example? It can't be the V8, because the majority of the GS's that sell are V6's. Where is the GS superior to any car in its class?

Also, how is a brand "trusted as upscale?" The BMW 5-Series is an impressive sports sedan, but what is the E-class' claim to fame?

lindros2

I'm actually one who thinks that the RL is a good piece of kit. Did I buy it for that reason? Hell no.

I would have traded my 2004 TL for an A6, 530i or M35/45 if they gave me the same "hassle-free" experience as Acura.

And just to think - I consider myself to be a "car guy"...

Power1Pete

Honda needs to upsize the RL rear seat legroom. Otherwise, no one will spend the extra 10000 for it. People will buy the TL instead.

Saintor

A Lexus GS is a truly handsome sedan. Not an anonymous car that could be
confused with an Olds Aurora.

As for the E-Class, again, beauty. And panache. MY ex-boss had a E55 AMG 2004. 469HP. Is this an enough claim of fame to you?

I don't understand why the 5-series sell so well. It is horrible in my book.

jhr3uva90

The RL already has more legroom than the TL, although not by much. And it has the same legroom as its competitors.

Now it's time for my nightly heresy: maybe the problem with Acura is . . . THE CUSTOMERS?

Most "regular" Acura customers (not fanatics like us who write on message boards) have Acuras because they are a good value. For example, people are willing to give up the BMW 3 series' perfect weight distribution and RWD for the TL's standard DVD-A changer and leather seats. Because of that "value" mindset, Acura customers want the whole world for $50,000. For example, I've spent time on Lexus boards, and I have yet to hear a Lexus customer complain because the new GS is the same size as the much cheaper ES (or the even cheaper Avalon). And BMW drivers don't seem to mind the fact that the new 3 series is closer in size to the 5 series than its predecessors (they also don't seem to mind spending $1500 of a CD changer, but that's another story). When you really compare the RL to the GS and others, it is a competitive car. But will your typical Acura customer ever accept the fact that they are going to have to actually, you know, spend real money to get the RL's level of features?

ilas

the one mistake Honda probably made was viewing competition for the RL as cars like the E class, 5 series, M, and A6, but not guessing that competition would come from its own TL. Looking at the specifications, the Rl actually has very similar (and even larger) rear leg room than all of the cars Acura considers as close competition. However, the TL turns out to be roomy and close to the RL in terms of legroom (well, I guess the Rl has nearly an inch more or something like that). Now this within Acura competition is coming back to haunt them.

jhr3uva90

Again, is it Honda/Acura or is it the customers? Lexus owners are willing to pay substantially more for the Lexus GS 300 AWD over a similarly-equipped FWD ES 300, even though both cars are the same size with similar engines. However, your typical Acura customer will look at the RL see that it is only 3 inches longer than the TL and say, "it's not worth it" despite the details. Are Acura customers too value conscious?

msu79gt82

To gain access into these RL threads we must click on a lilnk called Second Generation RL

I saw an interersting commercial the other day. Mercedes was introducing customers to their Ninth Generation S-Series

One cannot easily dismiss the fact that BMW and MB have been offering a quality product for a very long time. History is a very difficult thing to erase.

Saintor

A poor excuse, IMO.

Acura is the oldest in Asian upscale brands and all others including Infiniti & Lexus are doing better in this specific category. The Legend was not properly replaced.

mrdeeno

I don't think Acura customers are "too" value conscious, but they are conscious of the value...which is what Acura wants.

But then again, these aren't the buyers that Acura NEEDS (1. since they already bought an Acura and 2) because they'll buy Acuras again later)...Acura needs buyers that will buy the car for other reasons besides value, but this is difficult if your car screams "VALUE" and to most people the car is a compromise because there's no major options/trim packages.

If I want a v8 but buy the RL for value, then I compromised for the value. If I want rwd but buy the RL, then I compromised for value. If I want sportier styling and buy an RL, I compromised for value. If I want larger rims and buy an RL, I compromised for value. If I want etc. etc. etc....most roads lead to VALUE.

If the RL is the PERFECT car for you, then it's not a compromise and you get value as a bonus...but when you want something the RL doesn't offer, you have to make the compromise if you find the VALUE more important.

I don't think it's the customers...I think it's Honda/Acura because they place value ahead of giving a customer exactly (or close as possible) what he/she wants.

jhr3uva90

So what if Acura is the oldest Asian upscale brand? It also has the fewest resources available of any Asian upscale brand. That's why it has so many fewer models than Lexus, especially when it comes to SUVs. That's also why it continues to base its cars off the FWD Global Midsized Platform, unlike Infiniti, which phased out all of its FWD cars. Perhaps is Honda took some of the money they are pouring into the Asimo robot and diverted into building the Acura brand, they wouldn't be having some of these problems. However, that is not the case.

Regarding proper replacement for the Legend, the current Acura TL is roughly the same size, configuration, and price as the Legend when it was at its peak, and it is selling far better than the Legend ever did. The previous-generation TL (1999-2003) actually resembled the Legend from the back. The current Legend (the Acura RL in North America) is meant for a different market, with obviously mixed results. However, remember that the 2005 was the RL's best year ever sales wise.

I wonder how well the Legend is selling in Japan? Personally, I think the car was built more for the Japanese than for us.

vishnus11

I think that THIS is the major point that people are failing to take into account. The RL (legend in Europe and elsewhere) is marketed as the same damn car (save a few MINOR changes) in all countries. The car is perfectly sized and equipped for the rest of the world, who doesn't seem to demand a V8 and more rear-legroom. So why would Acura bother going through the trouble of creating a US specific model, when they can take a hit on sales over here, but market an identical version of the car worldwide, cutting down on production costs.

btw, having driven the RL, I can say that it is a fine piece of machinery. Maybe it could use more distinctive styling, but sometimes i like the understated look. The only thing that bugs me, is the fact that it gets somewhat "crappy" gas mileage considering that it has a V6 instead of a V8.

jhr3uva90

EXACTLY!!! In my opinion, the reason why the TL is so popular is because it was designed in California, built in Ohio, to be sold exclusively in North America. The RL, on the other hand, was designed in Japan (where they like the way the car looks), built in Japan to be sold mostly in Japan and Europe. From Honda's perspective (not Acura's perspective), the North American market was almost an afterthought as far as the Legend (RL) is concerned. And Acura, knowing that the chances of them selling a car that costs over $50,000 was nearly nil, asked Honda to remove content from the Japanese Legend to make the 2005 RL weigh in at just under $50K. Fortunately, the cost of technology decreases over time (LCD screens, computers for nav systems, DVD players, etc. -- and don't forget about Moore's Law), so Acura should be able to add more standard features in the 2007 RL and still keep the 2005 RL's price.

VW/Audi had the same problem, where their engineers couldn't have cared less about American tastes. That's why VW recently made its engineers spend 6 months in the U.S. going to different cities and driving in different enviroments (and riding mass transit) to get a feel for us, according to a recent WSJ article.

jhr3uva90

The gas mileage is crappy because the RL is heavy as hell. At 4000 pounds, the RL weighs as much as some SUVs. However, that's the price I'm willing to pay for SH-AWD. But here's something interesting: a FWD version of the RL would actually weigh LESS than the TL, despite the RL being slightly bigger. That's because the RL uses lighter aluminum alloy much more than the TL does, plus it uses Active Noise Cancellation instead of sound-absorbing insulation.

mrdeeno

The E, 5, A6, GS, and M were designed and sold in other world markets also with few minor changes...sometimes they get better equipment outside the U.S.

If the tastes between the U.S. and the rest of the world were that different, then all these other models would be having the same problem as the RL and be unpopular in the U.S. market, which is not the case.

vishnus11

i agree, BUT do those companies sell V8 versions of these vehicle in other countries as much as they do in the US? The reason I ask is that I highly doubt that M45's for example and 545i's sell that much in Japan and elsewhere around the globe, such as in fuel concious Europe. I know in many parts of Asia for example, one RARELY EVER sees a 545, but instead 520's and 525's are common! even a 530 is quite a rare sight.

Also, as someone else mentioned, the aforementioned companies also amortize the costs of a V8 by installin it in more than one vehicle. Currently, Honda has nothing in its lineup that REQUIRES a V8 - the MDX does fine, as does the Ridgeline.

I agree with jhr3..., while I dont want to say that Acura marketing this thing over here was an "afterthought" I think that Honda focused for example on SH-AWD, something that could see benefit in all parts of the globe, rather than on development of a V8, whose benefit could only be fully realized in certain parts of the globe.

Just as a sidenote, I think that Honda ultimately took a step in the right direction. Automakers are currently probing the limits of FWD: read TL, Maxima, etc. yet RWD doesn't quite work as well in inclimate weather. Sure Traction Control is handy, but it doesn't increase the available grip, it just distributes it better. Thus ultimately, espeically with todays horsepower infused cars, i think SH-AWD is a good solution to the problem in 90% of cases, in that it offers AWD surefootness with the performace benefits of a rear drive car, plus the "super handling"

jhr3uva90

The E and the 5 are going to sell well simply because they are Mercedes and BMW, period. The Audi A6's sales have been mixed. In fact, there were several months last year when the RL outsold the A6. Now about the Japanese. . .

Toyota originally created Lexus for the exclusively for North America and it is still Lexus' primary market. That's why Lexuses tend to be designed with the North America in mind first, then Europe, and then Japan. Lexuses generally aren't selling all that well in Europe, mainly because Lexus tends to be more U.S. focused. That's also why Lexus' cars tend to be super smooth, super quiet, and probably super annoying to the Europeans. It's going to be interesting to watch Lexus strike a balance between creating a tighter car that the Europeans want without alienating the U.S. drivers who made Lexus what it is.

And yes, U.S. tastes are different from the rest of the world. That's why we buy more SUVs than anybody else on earth and buy fewer diesels and manual transmissions. Lexus is well aware of this, which is why they were the first luxury brand with 3 different product lines of SUVs. That's also why they are the #1 selling luxury brand. . . in the U.S.

The new Infiniti, in my opinion, is more French than Japanese. If you look closely at the G35 sedan, for example, you might see a little bit of Renault design. Carlos Ghosn and company have probably figured that the best way for them to sell Japanese cars to Americans is to make them similar to European cars, as opposed to other Japanese cars. So far, the plan is working, although the VERY American Acura TL outsells the Infiniti G35.

So while the Lexus GS, Infiniti M, and Acura RL are all ostensibly Japanese, the Lexus GS (and Lexuses in general) feels similar to an American car (Cadillac?), and the Infiniti M shows a HEAVY Euro influence. The RL, on the other hand, is quintessentially Japanese, both in its low-key styling (one might expect that from a mono-cultural society) and its emphasis on consumer electronic gadgetry. Honda built the new Legend for the Japanese Domestic Market, and Acura took what it could get. Personally, I'm okay with that, but apparently I'm one of the few who savor the flavor of Japanese goodness.

AltecBX

He hit this right on the nose. This is exactly why they ain't selling as much RL as Honda wants. They need to offer custumers the OPTIONS.

mrdeeno

Yes, they do not sell as many v8 versions in other markets because of petrol prices. But OTOH, they DO offer a v8 version in the U.S. for U.S. tastes. And this is a conscious decision by Acura/Honda NOT to offer a v8 in the U.S. or other markets.

Basically, they are not giving U.S. consumers what they want...yet they claim the U.S. market is their most important.


No OTHER automaker "requires" a v8 either. They all have powerful 6-cylinder engines. a v8 is NOT a necessity, it is a LUXURY. All the other automakers with v8's know that americans buy what they WANT...not what they NEED.

Further, honda can do the same thing and install the v8 in more than one vehicle. The MDX does fine without a v8...but to me, "fine" is just the minimum, whatever happened to "excellent" or "raises the bar"...so Honda/Acura is just settling for "fine" nowadays?



I think SH-AWD is a great technology and is definitely a benefit to the RL. But to the average luxury consumer, it's just another form of AWD...and since every other maker in this segment offers AWD, SH-AWD isn't an advantage for Acura when it comes to the majority of luxury consumers. when I test drove the RL the dealer didn't even know the difference between the SH-AWD and other AWD systems...he just said it was "electronic" and "better".

To the enthusiast and those in the know, SH-AWD is an advantage for Acura...but that's a small market and doesn't help the RL sell more to "average" luxury consumers who only know "V8" or "AWD" or "RWD" or "Premium Package" or "Tech Package" or etc.etc.etc.

static808

- V8 should be added just because you play with the big boys.

- Acura needs to separate the gap between the Accord - TL - RL. These 3 cars are cross-shopped more than say... Maxima - G - M from Nissan.

- Marketing needs to be stepped up..BIG TIME

- Even with sub-par numbers in Jan 2006, Acura is only off by a few hundred cars on the RL. That isn't that bad. It might be time to pull a BMW and offer incredible leases.

- More commericals mean more drivers.

- The product isn't terrible, just need to fine tune the delivery.

jhr3uva90

Again, a problem with an Acura salesperson! Dealers don't even know the car that they are selling!

A V8 would be great, but: 1) can the current Global Midsize Platform accommodate it, 2) is it worth it to develop and manufacture a V8 just to sell 10% more RLs?

jhr3uva90

I agree wholeheartedly with static808 about the leases. There's a bunch of Mercedes E-classes riding around DC right now because they offered some amazing lease deals.

More TV commercials don't necessarily mean more drivers based on recent studies. Product placements, on the other hand, would be quite effective! Look at what it has done for the iPod, for example. Even Lexus is doing product placement on shows like Nip/Tuck. Also targeted print ads might be more effective than TV, and Acura has started increasing those.

I'm sure if Acura sold about 1,400-1,500 RLs a month they would not be disappointed. The problem is when they sell 770 units in a month.

Benush

Within the last few weeks I read a small paragraph at the bottom of an article on MSN about Acura putting a new design center (or something similar) in California. The majority of the article was about the new Honda Civic Si but if I remember correctly the last paragraph actually mentioned that the new center - presumably based in Torrance - was slated. Could it be that Acura IS listening but acting conservatively (as has been their usual approach) when it comes to producing a high end techno toy for the US market?

I only buy a new car about every 10 years (76 Accord, 85 Prelude, 95 Integra GSR, 06 RL) and buy HMC products because they were a good value for the money. I don't think that my RL is a good value for the money but is has the drive train I want so thats "my" compromise. I paid a little bit over invoice and told the sales person, "I'm buying the car for the price I want, you can have my money now or in 8 mnths, your choice."

So to give my take on the issue, Honda/Acura is acting just like they always have, even when it comes to F! racing, they study their perceived target audience and then slowly, conservately and methodically create something that fits that mold. For those of you that don't think the RL is what you want, you aren't Acura's target audience.

Again, just my

Water-S

I work for Honda of America.
I'm not saying this due because their paying me or I'm their employee.
#1. Acura IMHO is doing fine. The TL is a good "3 class fighter" It holds it own with a BMW 3. The RSX is I think best in it's class(since Toyota dropping the Celica). The MDX yes it isn't as "honorable" or "noticeable" as an BMW X5 but it's a good 10 grand less. The RL is a awesome car for the money. it's 10 grand under an BMW 530xi or Benz E class 4 matic.
#2. Honda likes to use Acura as "test mules" before make certain items or features more common on Hondas. For example the 6 speed was offered on the CL and TL before it was offered on the Accord v-6(both coupe and now 4 door)
#3. I'm gonna tell you guys something that's gonna happen around 07 or 08.
SH-AWD will be offered on the TL. I have a buddy that works over at Honda R and D(research and Development) he said it's true. also a dealership said this is true.
#4. now everyone grips about RL not having a V-8. there's a couple things i want to address with this. the first thing i want to address is do you guys realize with a highly tuned V-6 you're making only 70 hp less than a BMW 550 and only about 15 hp less than a Benz E500. second thing I want to address about power is more cylinders=less mileage. Honda is a very "eco-friendly"company. You look at the Civic Hybird, Insight,Accord Hybird.

Now the news that will make you guys day:GUYS PAY ATTENTION. RUMORS ARE FLYING AT MY ENGINE PLANT OF A V-8 LINE.
they won't say what they want to put it in but they suspect a "bigger ridgeline."

jhr3uva90

The current TL was actually designed in Torrance, but it was technically a Honda design center. I believe Acura wants to have one of their own, which would be a good thing. Maybe having different people in a different building will result in different ideas. Of course, the underlying engineering will probably still be the Global Midsize Platform.

And you are right about Honda doing things "conservately and methodically." A company that is such a small player in the auto market like Honda can't afford to go balls to the way just to see what would happen. Think about this, the Lexus GS has been a poor seller for 10 YEARS and 2 generations, up until the current car arrived in the spring of last year. Honda would not have been able to afford to keep trying over and over again on such a poorly selling car like that. Same thing with the Infiniti Q45, which has been floundering for 15 years and 3 generations. Honda has to take its time, be careful, and be cautious.

jhr3uva90

HOLY FUCK!!! YOU ARE MY FUCKING HERO!!! And I've been saying forever that the RL is essentially a prototype/preview of what's to come.

mrdeeno

That is comparing HP numbers, but what about torque? The 4runner has a v8 engine that puts out LESS hp than the v6 version, but more TORQUE. Why would they do that? Because TORQUE is an important factor that has to be considered.

Also, Honda may be a very "eco-friendly" company, but we're not talking about Honda, we're talking about Acura...if they are so eco-friendly, why have v6 engines at all? They should just make do with their i4's because they're so "eco-friendly". Why have a truck? Why have an SUV? If they're so "eco-friendly", then they'd be making ONLY hybrid cars. And why aren't there more hybrids then? Lexus can claim they have a hybrid SUV and hybrid sedan. If they're so eco-friendly, where is Acura's hybrids?

And also they (and also a lot of people here) have been saying that no honda/acura "needs" a v8. Along the same line of reasoning above, no honda/acura needs a v6 either. The reason they have v6 engines is because CONSUMERS want it.

If they wanted to save the planet, they would go out of business because every honda engine uses a petroleum product and every honda engine puts out somekind of emissions, so they'd have to eliminate every product they have except that freakin' robot and fuel cell car.

Last time I looked, Honda was in the business of selling cars and other engine related products, not saving the environment.

mrdeeno

Yeah, they have around 80 BILLION dollars in revenue every year selling everything from lawnmowers to hundreds of thousands of accords and civics every year around the world.

Honda is no "small player". They just would rather invest money in jet engines and stupid robots rather than v8 engines or rear wheel drive platforms.


they have MORE money now than they did 10 years ago, yet 10 years ago they invested in R&D for a rwd platform for ONE low volume selling car (NSX), and they had money to invest in a separate rwd platform for another low volume car (S2000).

What makes more sense? investing in R&D to make a rwd platform for a mass-produced car that can be shared with other higher volume models, or investing in a platform for ONE car?

They have the money and ability to build rwd platforms and v8 engines. They did the same thing when it came to SUVs...they chose not to invest in SUVs because they said it was just a fad. They had to justify it by saying they were sitting back and "studying" the market. In my opinion, that's BULLSHIT and just them trying to save face and not admit to making such a large mistake.


Anyone that says that Honda is a "small player" or doesn't have the resources is dreaming. They have the money and they have the resources and they are FAR from a small player.

jhr3uva90

Mrdeeno, thanks once again for your insight. Like you, I would love to see a RWD V8 (or better yet, V10) coming from Honda.

You are correct about Honda Motor Company being a large corporation overall, including motorcycles, lawnmowers, etc. As a car manufacturer, Honda isn't even in the top 5. Even Nissan is a bigger car manufacturer than Honda. That being said, I think we would all like to see Honda create a RWD platform similar to the FM Platform that Nissan uses. Hopefully, that will come to pass someday.

Why would Honda rather "invest money in jet engines and stupid robots rather than v8 engines or rear wheel drive platforms?" Because there is a higher rate of growth in those endeavors. The Asimo robot might seem like a toy now, but the lessons learned could be apply in everything from manufacturing robots to artificial legs for humans. A robot that not only walks but runs is a VERY impressive feat of engineering and one that points to our possible future.

A V8 engine (or hopefully, a V10) is a good thing to have, and I think you and I strongly agree on that point. Let's think about what the possible future growth potential is for the market for V8/V10 car engines. On a global scale, it isn't that huge. Automobile and SUV sales in the U.S. are growing overall, but not by leaps and bounds. The market for a V8 in Europe is small, considering the price they pay for petrol. China probably has the largest potential for growth, but their population generally does not make enough money to justify a V6, let alone a V8 or V10. So looking at the big picture, a Honda V8 or V10 engine would result in incremental sales increases in a North America, negligible sales increases in Europe and Japan, and that's about it. I still believe Honda should produce a V8 (or better yet, skip the V8 and go straight to a V10), but I don't think HMC (the parent company) will make it their top priority.

As far as Honda being late into the SUV/light truck market, that was actually a good idea. If Honda had jumped blindly into SUVs, following GM and Ford, they would have some of the same problems GM and Ford are having right now. Instead, the figured out how to convert the Global Midsize Platform into the Global Light Truck Platform, which results in SUVs with car-like qualities. The Acura MDX, Honda Pilot, and now the Ridgeline are the successful results of a cautious approach.

Maybe patience is a Japanese thing, but as a shareholder, I'm glad the patient approach works for Honda.

Bert Kanne

The only thing that is hurting the RL is Acura's lack of experience and possibly their advertising at selling a sedan in it's price range. I recall Road and Track giving an outstanding review on the car when it first came out. However, the smart buyer after comparing the car to it's competition from Lexus, Infinity, BMW, Mercedes and Audi will see it is the best buy in it's class and a great car. It is beautifully designed, constructed and it will be quite reliable and not have outrageous service costs. Not having a V8 is not a big deal as equivalent awd luxury sedans with V8's cost considerably more. There are a couple of features that should be added immediately as standard equipment, notably rain sensing wipers and front and rear parking assist.

As a former VW sales consultant I can tell you image is very important; the Phaeton is a flop but Audi manages to do much better with it's sister car, the A8. If a car does poorly or gets a poor reputation (like the current BMW 7 series)when new it rarely has good resale. Resale on the Phaeton and the current BMW 7 series is terrible.

jhr3uva90

As a former VW sales consultant, how would you rate the Acura sales people you have encountered?

Bert Kanne

Since I only have this Acura dealer to compare to, I would say VW salespeople are somewhat more knowledgeable about their product because they have to be. I think many VW customers need to be told the advantages of VW (typically areas such as engineering and features) vs it's competition whereby Acura customers already have a good overall impression of Acura product. Since VW's generally cost more than the Japanese competition, the cost difference must be explained as to what the customer is getting for the additional money.

VW is having a much harder time than Acura is in the US. VW has had so many reliability and service problems in the past that unless someone has had good luck with a previous VW, they usually won't buy another. Also, since VW has more optional equipment on almost all of their models, customers need to be more informed on what their choices are. I personally feel the latest VW product (the new Jetta and Passat in particular) will be reliable and sales people have to convey this to potential customers. Obviously this isn't an Acura sales consultants problem!

mrdeeno

I think that Acura's NOT having reliability problems or options is making the dealers complacent and lazy, and now they expect the customers to know something about the car when they come in for a test drive. They are almost up there with BMW dealers thinking their shit don't stink or something. Same with Honda dealers who think their cars are so great that they sell themselves.

I remember buying the cl-s...the dealer told me it had "Exxon" headlights and the strut bar was to keep the engine from protruding into the passenger compartment during a crash.

The dealer that I test drove the RL with was a little more knowledgable, but didn't know what was so special about the SH-AWD except that it was better.

Saintor

February 2006 Sales – Midsize Luxury Sedans - even worse for the RL:

5 = 4,153
E = 2,310
GS = 2,049
M = 2,000
STS = 1,740
A6 = 1,168
RL = 712

jhr3uva90

Not good at all. Acura needs to do something, right now!

jhr3uva90

Hold up!

Sales of EVERY Acura decreased in February except for the TSX, which had a 1.4% increase. Acura really had a crappy February.