Mike_TX

You kids are missing the point. If you want to say there are other cars that are better than the RL in ways, or cars that sell better than the RL, that's fine.

My point is that the RL was and is a benchmark car for Honda/Acura, as well as for the segment, based on what it represented and the equipment and features it brought to market ... unique and innovative AWD system; sound system with active noise cancellation, DVD-Audio and 5.1 surround sound; class-leading nav system with BT/VR, real-time traffic and Zagat restaturant ratings; collision mitigation braking system; etc., etc.

As has been pointed out, several mfr's are now scrambling to copy SH-AWD, and many still don't have all the features and content of the RL, even at higher prices.

If we use your definition of benchmark, then the BMW 5-series ain't no benchmark ... hell, there are lots of cars that go faster or handle better or sell more or have something else better about them!

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GoHawks

I understand all the criticism lobbied here against Acura, and I agree with most of it, but I still feel Acura's biggest issue (ESPECIALLY with the RL) is marketing.

Read the following article. Now I won't be buying a Taurus in the near future, but a lot of what is said in that article resonates with me as being similar issues with Acura, although not quite as bad. While Acura may not be perceived as a full blown luxury nameplate, it obviously doesn't have to overcome Ford's reputation of building crappy cars.

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/a...SS01/710120352

DETROIT AUTOMAKERS TARGET TOYOTA

Taurus flop turns spotlight on need for new marketing strategies
October 12, 2007

BY SARAH A. WEBSTER

FREE PRESS BUSINESS WRITER

When Ford Motor Co. CEO Alan Mulally decided to bring back the Taurus name on a redesigned version of the Five Hundred, experts say, it was a grand opportunity for Ford marketers to revive a well-known brand name that had been a best-seller in its heyday.

But nearly four months later, the Taurus launch clearly missed its mark, industry experts and several dealers told the Free Press. They all blamed a misdirected advertising campaign by the company's marketing department, which is being revived with new leadership

On Thursday, Ford confirmed it had hired Jim Farley, group vice president of Toyota Motor Corp.'s Lexus division and the man credited with the successful launch of Toyota's youth brand, Scion.

The move comes on the heels of Chrysler LLC hiring two Toyota sales and marketing experts and as Detroit automakers work on new UAW contracts designed to bring labor costs in line with those of Toyota's U.S. plants.

Farley will be Ford's chief marketing and communications officer.

Says Mulally, a fan of Toyota's philosophy: "Farley is well known for innovative marketing strategies that connect great products to today's and tomorrow's customers."

Ford is still searching for a new group vice president for sales, marketing and service for North America to replace Cisco Codina, who held the position for less than two years.

But the performance of the Taurus -- a competitive vehicle embraced by the CEO -- helps illustrate why change is needed in Ford's marketing suite, which should be getting the word out about Ford's strong new lineup.

As the first new big cars rolled off the assembly line at Ford's Chicago plant in June, hopes for the Taurus were high, especially from the new boss, who declared, "Everything about this car is me."

Consumers were increasingly seeking alternatives to fuel-thirsty SUVs. The new Taurus was getting top safety awards. And trusted auto sources, like Consumer Reports, were recommending it as a good buy.

But sales of the Taurus were down 30% in September compared with dismal Five Hundred sales a year earlier.

Cash-back rebates on the Taurus have doubled since its launch in June, to about $1,200, data provided to the Free Press from the Power Information Network show. And the average age of the Taurus buyer has jumped three years to 61, with buyers under 55 deciding on other models.

"It's just doing OK," said Nason Feldman, a Ford dealer outside Houston.

Gordon Wangers, a San Diego-based automotive marketing consultant and former CEO of AMCI, an automotive marketing firm, said that, while Ford's truck marketing is strong, its approach to cars hasn't worked as well.

"They've been behind the times."

Ford marketing gets blamed

None of the experts or dealers interviewed for this report blamed the Taurus' lackluster performance on the decision to bring back the well-known name -- a move promoted to Mulally by Barry Engle, general manager of Ford Division marketing. Nor did they fault the actual vehicle, which many agree is a stylish, attractive package with a new engine.

Rather, they all blamed Ford's bland marketing message for the vehicle: "The All New Taurus. Rated the Safest Full-Size Car in America."

The commercial promoting the car showed a father, confident in the Taurus' safety, giving his young son the keys.

But Feldman said the weak marketing campaign became such a sore point with dealers in recent months that they complained to Ford officials, who have responded with new advertising.

The new Taurus campaign, based on Ford's popular "Swap Your Ride" advertising series, shows how delighted a Toyota Avalon owner is with the new Taurus after driving it for a week. IAG Research says that new commercial was the sixth most recalled advertisement during the week ending Sept. 23.

But Feldman is disappointed that Ford didn't get the Taurus buzz right from the start, especially given the car's importance to Ford as the market shifts away from trucks.

"It's a shame, because the car is a nice car," Feldman said.

Pitch lacks emotion for buyers

The Taurus' "safest full-sized car in America" message was backed by hard data from the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety and the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, both of which do crash performance tests.

But marketing experts say the message failed because it was an emotionless pitch -- especially for a storied brand name that should have been resurrected with some hoopla.

"I think it was the safest ad campaign in America," said Jean Halliday, the longtime Detroit bureau chief for Advertising Age. "It's hard to believe that Ford couldn't find something more compelling."

Wangers said the campaign was flat-out wrong-headed.

"Putting an appliance out there and calling it safest is probably not going to have customers lined up," he said.

One Taurus fan said the launch campaign didn't connect.

Mike Miller, an 18-year-old college student in Morrisville, N.Y., drives a 2001 Taurus he bought from his grandmother. He is also an officer of a Taurus fan club on the social networking Web site, Facebook.com.

He said he loves the Taurus because he likes the feeling of a big, safe car, and his group, "Ford Taurus -- The Ultimate Pimpmobile," has more than 300 members. When the new Taurus came out, he eagerly visited local dealerships to check it out.

"I really like the car. It does have some character," he said.

But he said the safety-message commercials are boring.

"They should really show it competing against other cars, even show a few videos where you can hear it accelerating."

mrdeeno

I think the problem with your use of the term "benchmark" is you make it so ambiguous that there is no standard. You may as well say the Fit is Honda's benchmark for compact design, or an Accord is the benchmark for sales, or Satin silver metallic is the benchmark for silver cars. C'mon, defending your car is fine, but at least use some common sense.

Further, why are you measuring benchmark based on technology, or based on value, or based on features? These things are fine as bragging rights are concerned, but if they aren't leading to sales, which is the ULTIMATE benchmark in the auto BUSINESS, then what use is benchmarking them? "Oooh, I got SH-AWD, the car is a flop, but I still got a benchmark AWD system!". that's like

It's analogous to winning the battle but losing the war. So what if the RL has the best AWD system of its competitors...it may have won that particular battle, but it's losing the war bigtime.

lumpulus

I still don't get why someone who owns an Infiniti spends so much time on an Acura website....

db22

We , as RL owners, know what we bought, its attributes and its competitors. We like our cars and we don't expect everbody else to be the same. mrdeeno chose the Infiniti after the RL and I think that everybody agrees they are both fine cars. Opinions from people "out of the circle" are always a good thing to get a broader perspective.
mrdeeno - maybe a disclaimer on your post would actually add authentication to your opinion?

kirbyflorida

I think I found the root cause for some of the slow sales.
The sales people tell me people want the RL to be bigger, they come in looking for Acura's biggest CAR and find the RL looks to small, more of TL size.
I heard today the 09 RL will have a new look and be longer, he had no other info.

db22

[QUOTE=kirbyflorida]I think I found the root cause for some of the slow sales.
The sales people tell me people want the RL to be bigger, they come in looking for Acura's biggest CAR and find the RL looks to small, more of TL size.
[QUOTE]
I found him! I noticed a RL with more than 2 people in it last Friday.

neuronbob

lumpulus and db22, mrdeeno is a former Acura owner (CL if I recall correctly, jeez, I've been around here too fricken long ) and he had good reasons for moving on to Infiniti. He's entitled to his opinion and while his delivery sometimes leaves something to be desired (and I'm on him when that happens), sometimes he's spot on. One of the great things about AZ overall is that many folks feel comfortable enough here that they stick around even after they are no longer Acura owners.

And can we get off the benchmark stuff? The RL was certainly a benchmark when it was released, but is long in the tooth, thus our qvetching. Next topic!.....

and I hope the next RL is a great evolution. I think the current RL is a good implementation that needs a little work on the styling front, with marketing, and with overall company support.

dwboston

Everyone is indeed entitled to his own opinion. It's the constant , the trumpeting of post counts as a measure of contribution to the site, liberal use of the term "fanboy", and the general combativeness that rubs folks the wrong way. And it certainly doesn't appear that much has changed, no matter how much you or any other mod is "on him". Bottom line is, he doesn't even own an Acura yet enjoys hanging around and antagonizing people here. That cancels out any useful point he might make.

That's my opinion and I'm entitled to it.

Rob144

I believe the correct spelling is "kvetching"!

Rob144

GoHawks

I actually agree with most if not all of what he says, but the condescending and abrasive manner by which he delivers his points tends to wear a little thin.

What exudes from his posts is "Maybe we can all hope to be as smart as him some day".

Mike_TX

Yeah, I know mrdeeno from the Infiniti forums, and I'm used to his abrasiveness. Since I once owned an Infiniti M45 and dumped it, I could hang around the M forum and piss people off, but life's too short, isn't it.

He focuses on SALES benchmarks, and I focus on benchmark as "setting a standard" - hence the dictionary definition I reproduced. I guess he's entitled to define benchmark any way he wants ... but it doesn't make ME and the dictionary wrong.

(Oh, yeah - Bob said to stop the benchmark stuff, didn't he?)

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kirbyflorida

We don't need no stinkin benchmarks.

From Bogart movie.

TampaRLX-SH

Oy!

mrdeeno

I'll call someone a fanboy when they act like a fanboy.

And how am I constantly antagonizing? I just reviewed all my posts on this thread...I don't see me being combative or calling anyone a fanboy. I'll state my opinions and I'll state them again and again and again. Just because I happen to not choose an Acura or my viewpoint is counter to yours or others, you and a few others will take it as "antagonizing".

My suggestion to you...if you're so insecure to get offended when someone points out a criticism of an Acura, grow some thicker skin or get out.

now back on topic...the existence of this thread is clear indication that there is something wrong with Acura, because it was an Acura fan that started it, so you know it's bad.

dwboston

Thanks for proving my point. And I'm not going anywhere.

And no one is attacking your message, just the combative, smug way you choose to post it.

kmcheney

+1

neuronbob

I stand corrected.

You sure are!

This is an example of poor delivery, mrdeeno. You don't need to be that abrasive. Many of us agree totally with you, just not with your delivery (sometimes). My suggestion to you....is to tone it down, please.

Don Melcher

Haven't we been here before???

Will somebody just shoot this thread and put it out of it's misery?

CL6

LOL

AbovePrime.

The BMW 5 Is a benchmark mid size sedan, whats so hard to understand about that, it has class leading performance, all the tech you need, nice ride, and a great interior.

GoHawks

With the reliability of products coming out of Detroit.

The only way I would ever purchase a BMW is if I knew I would NEVER have to own it outside of the warranty period.

GoHawks

How can you say that you're not antagonizing when you write a response such as this. You can't be that clueless can you?

neuronbob

I think mrdeeno has gotten your points. Back on topic, please!

AbovePrime.

And? It still does not keep it from selling better than the RL, performing better too, without SH-AWD. They're pleanty of BMW owners with out a single problem from their 5 Series.

larrynimmo

I am no fool. BMW 5 series is the benchmark for our car. In almost all comparisons the BMW "edges out" the RL....except price. Go to the BMW web site and build yourself a 5 series AWD compariably equiped (don't forget the HP) you are looking at 60k before TT&L. There are few discounts being given. If you want to say I have a "wannabe" for 20k less I am cool with that. Even by the Consumer Reports ratings, my RL is only 2 points behind the Beemer...I can live with that. Prehaps the Infinity's need a closer look. To me they are the only car that challenges RL's value for the money.

Rexorg

The "benchmark" for the RL, or any other car, is how much profit can be made and still stay in business. If Acura can make a few thousand RLs a year and turn a profit they will do so; if not the RL will go away, which looks more likely every month now. For Acura dealers the demise of the RL would not be the end of the world, but Acura still has to come up with a top-of-the-line car model in the near future.

SpicyMikey

The RL represents a critical position in the Acura lineup. They can't get rid of it. In fact, they need to start gettign more serious about that spot and maybe expand the lineup north of the RL.

Another important fact to remember. The top end sedan in the lineup (i.e. the "Flagship"), always sells slow relative to total sales. No question the RL's sales are bad, but you still have to put it in context. It would never get it's share of sales as a percentage of total choices in the lineup. here's total sales for some other flagships this year.

YTD Sales relative to total sales:
Acura RL - 3.6%
Audi A8 - 4.02%
BMW 7 - 5.1%
Lexus LS - 10.7%
MB S - 10.8%
Infiniti M - 17% (not sure how to read this. They only make 2 sedans and 4 cars total)

Don't people always find themselves in that struggle to decide whether to jump to the next "level" in brand when they are in the top price range of a brand? How many people are considering an Avalon but then decide "hey, for a few bucks more I can have a Lexus ES?"

Point is, the flagship is always going to have low numbers. That's OK. It is the "cap" on the top of a brand and plays other important roles in identifying the brand. The RL's sales are just a few points lower then what should be expected. Don't get rid of it. It just needs to be redesigned and tweaked a bit. Period.

Rexorg

Right now the flagship for Acura is the MDX, and they are selling a ton of them. Acura dealers sold 9,081 MDXs in September and 357 RLs. Year-to-date 4,919 RLs have been sold compared to 9,081 last year. Year-to-date sales for the MDX is 42,954!!!

SpicyMikey

Dude, you want to turn this into a debate on the definition of a "flagship" like the others have been doing with the word "benchmark"?

The MDX is Acura's top seller right now. So what? The 3 series is BMW's top seller. It accounts for 50% of all their sales! Is that their flagship vehicle? Come on, you know what I was getting at.

Jackzilla

Does anyone have any idea how many Acura RLs/Honda Legends that Honda sells worldwide? Could go a long way in explaining how the RL/Legend fits into Honda's worldwide marketing program and why North American sales may not be Honda's top priority.

SpicyMikey

I don't know that answer. But I do know it's not hitting it's sales marks in Europe either (as the Honda Legend).

neuronbob

And we have third-hand word that it is not hitting the mark in Japan, either, which we've commented on in the past. The car seems to be a global flop for Honda.

jaman_001

I read this board just about every chance I can, and I read it religiously prior to my purchase of an RL in 2005. I now have a 2006 RL, and still find this site very interesting. Some comments are on point, and others are just comical. I usually reserve my comments, but I just had to jump in here and add my two cents. Pardon the length of my post, this is just my opinion based on thoughts presented here, current sales figures, and info contained in the trade rags.

In my opinion, anyone that gets their hands on a 2nd generation RL is very fortunate. I say that because we own/drive the first production 'prototype' automobile made available to the public. If you recognize and understand the current models that Honda/Acura are deploying, you will know that RL sales are not their main focus. I believe Honda/Acura have created, tested, and perfected numerous significant technological advances over recent years and banked them while looking for a vehicle to showcase their newly achieved state-of-the-art technology and advanced engineering. While holding the distinct title of 'Acura's Flagship Vehicle', the RL was also going to be the benchmark of great things to come across the board. The RL was the most logical choice. When the 2005 RL hit showroom floors, it was the best deal in its class for the money. Sure $49,470 was a lot to shell out, but look at the advanced technology and quality you received in return. With it's easy to use and intuitive rotate and push navigation dial linked to the navigation/information GUI (which at the time was the best center control display money could buy), voice recognition package, industry leading SH AWD, complete keyless operation, Bluetooth, and a slew of other industry firsts (or best), the RL was a steal for those who did their research and picked one up. The price was way below what you would expect to pay for such an awesome car. You can't get a luxury car with all of the features of an RL for under $50,000.

Most of the technological breakthroughs that made the RL the 'Flagship'
model have been placed in these higher 'revenue generating' models in the Honda/Acura lineup, and even rounded off a new model after the 'shake down' period of the 2005/2006 RL. That's why I kind of consider the earlier RL production 'prototypes'. Lord knows plenty of 2005 RL owners, including myself, have logged plenty miles as we continued to report problems with our cars to the dealerships, and in some cases Acura Care. From the failed muffler tips to the door handles that would not lock once the car got wet, to the annoying squeaks, we let them know what worked and what didn't. Believe me, they hear and understand our gripes and what we perceive to be shortcomings. In my opinion, Honda/Acura is now focusing on beefing up their other models across the board by deploying the technology and lessons learned from the RL 'prototypes' in a methodical manner. How the RL sells is not as much of a problem as some like to make it out to be. Wouldn't you surmise that if the second generation Revamped Legend was a total flop that threatened the Legend badge, they would have taken corrective actions by now instead of waiting until the scheduled third generation? Now, don't get me wrong when I say Acura is not focused on RL sales right now. They know the sales are low, but if you look at the other side of the coin, the RL has served its purpose for now. The proven state-of-the-art technology introduced through the RL and tested by the owners has definitely enhanced the rest of the Honda/Acura line-up across the board. Have you had an opportunity to check out the revamped Honda Accord's interior? More specifically the center console display? Hmmmmm. I know I've seen that sh*t somewhere before. If you watch the video that demos the navigation system, you will notice the similarities right down to the icon selection display that has the exact same icons we have except for the traffic icon. And not by accident either as this is part of the marketing model that Honda/Acura is following. If they offered real time traffic with traffic flow in a Honda, a lot of potential Acura buyers would forget about the more expensive Acura models with the same feature(s). The navigation display is a perfect example of technology benefits reaped from the RL that benefit both companies while Acura maintains exclusivity to certain functionality. I think Honda will have to wait a while for this tidbit to be available to them and even then it will probably be available on the top packages. I think once the lineups in both sides of the house have been set and established for maximum profitability against the invested R&D and production dollars, they will then revamp the RL taking into consideration customer feedback and what will set their 'Flagship' ahead of the rest again. But the revamping will be something that can and will be applied across the board. For example, people are screaming for a bigger engine in the RL. But that is really not the answer if you follow the methodology. First off, with two differentials and all of the brains (computers) needed to run the car as designed, the extra weight of a larger engine would be counter productive (not to mention the resulting lower mpg). More so, where will they go with the engine after that? Offer it in an MDX? That would require a major redesign of the engine bay and possibly the skin. You definitely would not upstage it by putting it in the TL or the Accord. Maybe the Ridgeline? The NSX? There is very limited value in that. Instead, a revamped engine with different timing and ratios coupled with a transmission that offers more torque. Maybe even a reworked turbocharger from the RDX. Either way, I'm sure the 0-60 timings will be changing in the third generation in a way that it can be used in more than one application.

I'm through.

dwboston

Nice write-up jaman. I agree. I believe that those folks that are looking at RL sales in a vacuum are missing some of the point. Sure, Honda/Acura are probably disappointed to some extent by the RL/Legend sales, but the companies have gained tremendous benefit from using the car (and us) as test mules for new technology before rolling it out in other Acuras and now Hondas. How the RL model sells in and of itself isn't really a concern to me. I'm sure the next RL will rectify a lot of the perceived shortcomings of this one. As long as Acura keeps selling MDX's and TL's things are nowhere near as dire as some here make them out to be.

Mike_TX

Now, THAT I can really agree with. The RL is the most full-featured and satisfying car I think I've owned so far. And I've owned a lot of cars over the years.

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TSX69

I am little confused by your #s. You got the total # of MDXs sold & last month's RL #s right but according to the press release, the MDX sold 5,162 last month, not 9,081. Just curious where u got that # from ...
http://www.hondanews.com/categories/793/releases/4269

neuronbob

+2

I'm pleased every time I get into my RL. The next one will showcase new techs that will eventually make it into the 9G Honda Accord. Can't wait to see what Acura pulls out of its hat next time. All rumors point to a significant change for the 2009 MY.

larrynimmo

I respect your knowledge, enthusiasm, and for the RL...but what credible rumors have you been reading. Speculation at best. The rumors I have been reading say 09 will bring a new generation TL...next will be the TSX prehaps the same year. The rumors I have read say the 3rd gen RL is due out early 10MY.

Prehaps Acura will make a few token changes using in house parts & tech in the 09 to boost sales. Maybe the 3.7 motor...maybe cooled seats & high pressure headlight washers....prehaps true puddle lights....prehaps intro of a 6 spd auto....maybe new special wheels and tires...true ipod integration. The sad thing to me is that it would be relatively inexpensive for Acura to make the above changes (prehaps 1k per car) but would it significantly change interest in the car ?

NO SHEETMETAL, NO INTERIOR DESIGN, NO DASH LAYOUT. My prediction is no major changes until 10MY

neuronbob

You could be right, Larry. Unfortunately, Acura holds its cards close to the vest traditionally, so we'll only find out in the next 1-2 years. All we know so far is what information dealer sources are leaking. As we all know.....dealers know nothing at the end of the day. Maybe a bit more than we do, but not enough.

The next two years, as I've said in the past, are going to be a make or break time for Acura sedans, with the entire sedan line undergoing change.

Frankly, even a change to the J37 for next MY would be a positive development for the RL, but if the addition of the TL-S to the TL lineup is any indication, it won't help sales. People are now expecting new sheetmetal and whether it's in one, two, or (heaven forbid) even three years, it's basically too late for the current RL.

Sometimes great cars are flops. This is one of them. All it means for me is that I'm driving a "limited edition" car that I absolutely love, and that I'll have to keep it for a long time. Definitely not a punishment for me, and I knew that going in.