Mike_TX

Okay, I can take the Grandpa cracks from you young whippersnappers. I'll bet you didn't even have to walk 5 miles to school every day in the snow.

I truly realize the appeal of AWD in northern climes. I also reluctantly accept the notion that I really need it for driving on dry pavement (although I somehow managed to make it fine for over 40 years without it). But I'm telling you it ain't selling here in my part of the world. You hardly EVER see an AWD car around here unless it just came that way. Some pickups and SUV's, but not cars.

So a guy walks into an Acura dealership in the Southwest, sees the RL, and let's say he kinda likes it. Okay, then he checks out the sticker, and goes, "Whoa! 50 large. Hmmmm. What makes this car worth 50k? It ain't even got an 8. Oh, for one thing it has AWD ... well, we can dump that. That'll probably save a couple grand right there."

Then this unwashed potential customer finds out that, no, you can't dump the AWD. "What?", he says. "I don't want no AWD! This ain't Alaska, for crissake. It's (Arizona/Texas/Mississippi, etc). Don't you have any regular cars?"

The point of the little vignette is that the perceived value of SH-AWD is not there for most buyers south of the Mason-Dixon Line. And I'll admit my own limited past experience with 4WD (Jeeps, etc.) had convinced me they did weird things going around corners, used more gas, and required more maintenance than RWD vehicles. As such, AWD was the stuff of clunky pickups and off-road vehicles - not luxury cars. And to many people in this half of the country, it still is. So the guy goes down the street to the Dodge dealer or the Infiniti dealer, or whatever, and another RL sale is lost.

I don't make this stuff up.

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TampaRLX-SH

I walked 5 miles....in the snow....uphill.....both ways.....barefoot.....with broken glass beneath the show..........

Perceived value of SHAWD will never be elevated unless Acura does a better job explaining the real world use of it instead of selling superfical image. Adverts and commercials in other markets tend to be quite detailed on the LEGENDs SHAWD, structure and safety features. Here we get 'arrive 1st class'.

Think about it...this board community is more tuned in than even Acura employees, we sometimes encounter. And think of all this discussions of how we are still 'learning' SHAWD attributes. The typical consumer will not go through such pain.

The RL is simply a showcase automobile. The components that work are filtering into the lineup. What amazes me is the MDX felt like a tall RL with storage....and it sells. Why? It is a big ole' truck for the testosterone mentality VOdoc touched upon. I wonder if the MDX forums chatter about the worthlessness of SHAWD since it suits truck mentality as much as a gun rack.

Rob144

Here are some words from one of my favorite British automotive writers (LJK Setright, now deceased) excerpted from one of his weekly columns written in June of 2004:

"...The Honda NSX, when it appeared in 1990, was unquestionably the safest, fastest, best-made luxury car in the world. Disastrously, it was marketed as a sports car, and subsequent efforts to make it more so have degraded it. As has happened before, the grace of the makers was disgraced by the marketing men.

Those salesmen did no favours, either, to the exquisite Prelude: it was evidently beyond their comprehension, and production ceased some years ago. The gratifying Legend was beyond their class, and has suffered the same fate. But there is a successor in the wings, due here next year: a luxury saloon with four-wheel drive with outstanding roadworthiness. I drove a prototype of its transmission system in Japan in 1994: the ordinary saloon to which it was fitted was transformed into the best-handling car I have driven. Next year's new Honda may not be quite what we are looking for here, but it is certainly going to be a step in that direction.*

The best car in the world can no longer be a compromise. It cannot be a matter merely of engineering, or styling, and Heaven help us if it should turn out to be a matter of marketing skills. What it really depends on is best described as culture, something not normally associated with cars. Only Honda - firmly independent, profoundly clever, excitingly thoughtful and innately fastidious - possesses the necessary and appropriate cultural imperative."

I agree with his comments about Honda, and marketing. I have to think he was driving an early example of what was to become SH-AWD back in 1994. The RL simply would not be same car without AWD.


Rob144


* - The whole article is about who carries the mantle for making the best car in the world. He's conceding that the forthcoming Legend/RL might not be it, but will be a step in the right direction.

ssim3

I checked online & it looks like they have since built a new Acura showroom, but I know at 1st it was the only combo store.

Chas2

You should see that quite regularly in the MID using the SH-AWD display of the car with the five part torque bars for each wheel.

Whenever I am going down hill, off the gas, you get one bar on each wheel. If you are going around any turn coasting, especially with an incline down, you will see one bar on the outside wheel. However, if you touch the brakes at all, the bars go away from all wheels, whether just going straight down hill or around a curve.

In fact, there are very few times when you don't have bars on both front and back wheels at all times. You can see the front wheel drive bias, maybe 3-4 bars front on full acceleration and 2-3 bars rear, but there is no torque steer. The system does seem to work all the time, bearing in mind you cannot actually watch the MID full time and also drive.

There are far fewer times when you can feel the SH-AWD kicking in during a turn, and pushing you around from the outside wheel. You have to drive fairly aggressively around the turn to feel that. What I do notice is that there is very little tire squeal with SH-AWD. Going around the same turns, off ramps, etc, with my 95 Legend and Pirelli P Zero Nero M+S, I get tire squealing much more quickly, at a lower speed.

SpicyMikey

OK. Thanks for the explanation. I'll have to watch for that when I am making a zero power turn.

I know, from reading some literature, that the shawd and vsa are highly integrated. Seamless might be a better word. You might be actually seeing the VSA doing it's thing there and triggering the brake actuator . I know vsa and shawd are supposed to be more then a reactive system (unlike abs). The yaw sensor (which feeds vsa and shawd) may be reading enough lateral force (on your downhill zero power turn) that it's causing vsa to activate the brake for stability. Very sophisticated and cool system.

gavine

When coasting in a straight line, you'll notice zero bars on the front wheels and one bar on each of the rear wheels so the "drag" is on both rear wheels when coasting. As you go-into a turn (or quick lane change), you'll notice one bar on the inside wheel and zero bars on the outside wheel. Sort of a reverse-torque-vectoring if you will.

Chas2

Well, Acura and Volvo is better than my first dealership in San Diego, Acura and Hyundai. Acura Legends on one lot separated by a wrought iron fence and Hyundai Excels on the lot next door. It looked like two buildings from certain angles until you realize they were connected by the service drive throughs.

The showrooms were completely separate however, as were the service bays.

calvin_hobbes

Is the '09 RL slated to be a major design change from existing RLs such that a departure from existing Legend platform is envisioned? What i mean to ask is whether they (Honda/Acura) will make make major changes to Legend and simply fine-tune it further to fit US-needs (Acura) OR they (Honday/Acura) will branch off from Legend design, pursue own plans and revamp RL independent of Legend development? (the latter i find will be difficult to maintain going forward IMHO)

SpicyMikey

valid question. If I were to guess, I'd say the changes we seem to hear coming for 09 would probably be world wide and effect the Honda Legend as well. I can't imagine Honda making the Honda Legend and Acura RL two different cars.

Mike_TX

You know ... this is just my own observation, but the RL is considered "bland" by some because it doesn't have any outrageous styling cues.

Look at the recent (and short-lived ) post about the Infiniti M being restyled after only 2 model years. There was a car (and I had one, so I can say this) with big old honkin' tail lights that screamed "excess", along with a snarling front end and an overall kind of "look at me" appearance that was a little uncomfortable for a luxury sedan.

And what have they now done? They toned it all down. The tail lights are smaller, the front fascia is more civilized, they trunk line is softened, etc., etc. The kids on the Infiniti forums are bitchin that it's lost its "attitude" and is going soft. Well, maybe Infiniti decided it was losing sales because it looked too gaudy.

The RL, OTOH, has classy tails, a swoopy front end, inoffensive lines, and nothing to make women cover their children's eyes or nuns to bow their heads in embarrassment. Bland? I think not. I think it is classy and enduring styling, and therefore not something Acura will feel the need to re-work after a couple of years.

But that's just me.

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TampaRLX-SH

Ahmen! Yes, there are those of us who see the RLs styling as something that will endure over time. I think the RL will look good in 10 years. I syll think LEGENDs are handsome and shisticated. Trendy styling may make advances in design, but it also can wear off and be out of fashion in a shorter period of time.

One exception for me is the TL. I was captivated by the edgey styling and it still makes me look when I see one on every street corner. And the styling changes made to the TL have never made me think the original 04 model looks outdated. The changes are just alternatives in style. The RDX to me, already looks too busy and odd.

Infiniti has some interesting styling cues, but I am a person drawn to proportions. Inifinities have angles and design features that are interesting, but don't work for me in the whole car look and flow. I find the nose more generic than the RL and the tails too tall, abrupt and tailights though interesting too over the top to integrate in the whole body.

But that is my taste. And I find the RL's features interesting without detracting from the overall shape and proportions...which I like!

Rob144

+1. Maybe I'm biased, but the look of the GS300 is already starting to wear thin. It was among the first L-Finesse designs from Lexus, but it isn't the best. I find the headlight treatment somewhat jumbled with the separate fogs, and the rear 3/4 view is ungainly from some angles. In general, the GS has been through so many different design motifs that it hasn't aged very well. As a result, the latest one is starting to look somewhat dated and overdone.

I am kind of partial to the look of the Infiniti M. I like their interpretation of the 3-window design (kind of a Japanese Audi A6). The size of the car gives it some presence, especially in the darker colors, and it doesn't really have any weird angles. I'll be interested to see what the revisions look like, especially the interior.

I agree with Mike_TX -- the RL look is enduring and classy, and not something that will need to be "freshened" very much.

I wonder if Honda will ever let Acura have a flagship sedan that diverges from the Legend. Ever since the beginning of Acura, their top sedan has been Honda's top sedan. I expect that trend to continue.

Rob144

gavine

The RL is a great-looking car but you have to look at it to realize this. In other words, it doesn't turn heads and isn't thought of immediately as "wow, that's a nice car". However, after looking at it from different angles and really getting to know it, you realize that this is an expensive-looking car.

I spent a day in my RL with a client last week and, at first, he said the car was nice but didn't make a big deal out of it. By the end of the day, he said "this is a really nice car, how come they aren't selling that well?"

Basically, after he saw it a few times, it dawned on him.

I don't know if this is good or bad but for we owners, the car is beautiful because we see it everyday and really get to appreciate it.

Dr. Colorado

I agree. I also have noticed that passangers in the car tend to be more impressed by the interior once they have ridden in it compared to others who have merely looked at the exterior.

bhavin3623

cool

larrynimmo

extra inches inside --- = whole new car...when you add inches that is a complete retool not just facia and sheet metal touch up like you have in a mid model chance...that is unless you just stretch the body (like larger mini-vans) I don't see that working on a car like this.

SpicyMikey

Well, they could squeeze out a couple more inches by doing a redesign of the seats, etc. The comment from the Acura rep that the 09 would be changed and get more interior space doesn't necessarily guarantee a full redesign. Although, the poor sales -- and it's age -- might indicate this will be a FMC. Certainly, no one would be surprised if the pushed up the FMC by a year or two.

lflorack

That's what I thought too and the fact that the RL has SHAWD is one of the reasons I bought my RL. Since then, my expereince with has been that SHAWD is a bigger enjoyment factor for me on dry pavement than on wet or snowy roads -- although it does help on those roads too.

acuralvr1

Good points here.

I'd like to add that the main reason that SUV's sell in the US is that they're the new kid movers. We'd never not have 1 SUV with children. My wife car pools with other moms for my daughter's soccer games and practices 10 months a year. We need a large vehicle with many seats to do this. It's the vehicle we need for some of our long weekends and extended vacations. Our area is very mountainous and All Wheel drive is a necessity. We'd never buy a minivan- just not our style.

SpicyMikey

That's true. Many are moving towards the crossover's from minivans. Unfortinately for us, they are just a bit too small to handle my family. We're still forced to use minvans for a couple more years. The full size SUV would be comparable in size to a minivan but it's really not an option for many because of the less then "car like" handling and the terrible gas mileage.

SpicyMikey

Just read this obscure article from an online Pittsburgh paper. The guy mentioned in a matter-of-fact way that he was expecting an new RL in 09. Didn't elaborate.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07297/827530-97.stm

just made me interested again in that topic. Anyone hear anything more? I've heard myself from reliable sources at Acura corporate (not the dealer) that changes were coming in 09. But I agree it's out of sync with past trends.

SpicyMikey

Bam! Just finished talking to the sales manager over at my brothers old Acura. Asked him if he heard anything about the 09 RL. He told me it was funny I called because he remembers I was hot on that subject and just got off a conference call with Acura that included a lot of big dealerships. He said they were all gripping that Acura needs to do something cause they are all hurting with sales. They got a presentation on plans for new product. He didn't share everything with me but he told me a few good things;

1) Acura is planning for 9 new releases in the next 10 years.

2) Orders for the new TSX can be placed in February (which probably means April delivery). The TSX will have a S type this time (I already new that)

3) Here's the big one; The RL is being redesigned in 09. He said this is not a rumor, it's now a fact. THey were told this on an official conference call with all the big national dealerships on the call. I don't think Acura would be passing bad info about their own products. Also, he said they were all told it was going to be on the same frame but somehow they were adding 3 inches to it on the inside and out. Someone on the call asked what it was going to look like. They said it was being designed here in California. They speaker on the conference call said he saw renderings. He said it was BMW 7 series-ish looking.

That's it. That's what I know. Given my trust in my source, I'd say you can take this one to the bank now.

Mike_TX

I still have to wonder, Mikey ... when people say "a new one in 2009", does that mean a 2009 MODEL (which would show up in late 2008), or a 2010 model DEBUTING in 2009?

That makes a lot of difference - like 12 months.

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SpicyMikey

I actually didn't ask for clarification on that. Next time I talk to him I'll ask. However, we were talking about next year. He was excited saying how it looks like next year is going to be busy with the new TSX, TL, and RL.

Little disappointed they are not changing the wheel base, but, the RL is currently designed with room to spare in that department. I think they could easily add a few more inches inside and out on the current platform without doing anything odd.

neuronbob

OK, it's gonna be bigger. However, I want more low-end torque and a bold look. I guess we'll find out soon!

Rexorg

I am still sticking with my orginal post(s) that the new 2009 RL will debut in October of 2008. Time will tell.

Mike_TX

Boy, I hope you guys are right! If so, the MDX gets swapped for a new RL.

Interesting, too, that the study group I attend for the Acura Nav system is this Saturday. Almost seems like if it were to explore changes for a new model two years out they wouldn't be doing it now. Maybe that portends a new RL new year after all.

BTW, The paperwork I got mentions that I will probably be asked to sign a confidentiality agreement, so I might not be able to share too much info. I'll know more Saturday. If it's really good, though, they can't keep me from smiling broadly and expressing a lot of excitement ...

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acuralvr1

How about larger wheels? 18" rims would be nice, but 19" rims would be better.

Some more horsepower? I can't imagine they'll come out with a V8 for the RL- we can all hope.

Better rear view camera? Like the one the M35 has.

Allow the playing of DVD's in the entertainment/navigation system like the M35.

SpicyMikey

Yea, better stock wheels and some more agressive underbody design would be on my wish list, along with more length.

I'm fine with the power, but I hope they offer a S type for the RL next year with a v8 option (for their sake). Everyone's v8 option packages seem to be selling terrible this year, but, I admit it does provide an image/prestige advantage for the model. Problem is, they have to find more use for the drive train then just the RL-S. Otherwise, they'd be loosing so much money from the backend R&D that it would make no business sense. They'd probably want to come out with a TL-S with a V8 option and also an MDX v8. But, I've been hearing more rumblings about Diesel next year with the RL and MDX then V8 gas engines. Maybe that's the direction they will go to satisfy the power mongers. Going to be interesting over the next 12 months to watch Acura.

SpicyMikey

Yea, better stock wheels and some more agressive underbody design would be on my wish list, along with more length.

I'm fine with the power, but I hope they offer a S type for the RL next year with a v8 option (for Acura's sake). Everyone's v8 option packages seem to be selling terrible this year, but, I admit it does provide an image/prestige advantage for the model. Problem is, they have to find more use for the drive train then just the RL-S. Otherwise, they'd be loosing so much money from the backend R&D that it would make no business sense. They'd probably want to come out with a TL-S with a V8 option and also an MDX v8. But, we've all been hearing more rumblings about diesel next year with the RL and MDX rather then V8 gas engines. Maybe that's the direction they will go to satisfy the torque mongers. Going to be interesting over the next 12 months to watch Acura make some critical strategic moves.

Shotgun

Ditto on the torque, dump the limiter, offer a 6 speed, and a very slight "exageration" of the existing grille would do it for me - The car looks good as is and it's subtle elegance is garnering more and more compliments...

Rexorg

I love the looks of my RL, but the "jelly bean" style introduced in the 1996 Ford Taurus is now 13 model years down the road. I think it's time Acura comes up with something bold and beautiful.

Treblig

Bigger RL (possibly V10 powered), bigger TL, bigger TSX which will also offer a coupe. All models to sport SH-AWD. That is the info I am getting from my dealer.

camporealer

Hi.. I just hopped over from the TL board.

We have had a lot of discussion on our board about the 2009 TL upgrade. I expect there will be some major changes to keep it "above" the new Accord. One of the things that could happen is offering the SH-AWD as on option on the TL. If this happens, I think the RL would have to move more upscale to keep its position as the Acura flagship.

Just my , but I think 2009 will be an exciting year for all Acura fans.

SpicyMikey

Strong rumors have the TL with SH-AWD. I't bet a lot of money on that one expecially since it's almost a certainty that the new TSX will have a S option and that one will have SHAWD.

As far as the RL, I've heard virtually no details, except what I heard yesterday about there being a general redesign. Leaves you wondering if it's really coming in the 2009 MY or actually coming in 2009 for 2010 MY. I'm going to try and get clarification on that rumor

Benush

It's not "almost". If you read my post on the diesels in Honda's line up, the SEMA folks interviews talk about the "S" type and SHAWD for the TSX, so you can wipe that off your almost there list.

Rexorg

Was checking out the Tokyo Auto show which started yesterday and was wondering if the Japan only for now Honda Inspire could be the next RL. I know it has been reported the new RL would come from the CA studio, but at least this gives us an idea what the new RL might look like. Check it out at http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dl...gory=tokyo2007

TampaRLX-SH

I am confused, rex.

The Inspire I see in that link is the NA Accord rebadged as Inspire. That is how is has been. The Japanese EuroAccord is our TSX and our NA built Accord has been the Japanese Inspire.

I don't see the next RL in it. Although the next RL may be a NA design (in the California Design studio) I would expect it will still be built in Japan ( I hope! )

The NA Accord and TL already occupy the Marysville, OH plant and with not other plant in the US open for another model, I would assume it would be Sayama. Prhaps with the early release of the 08 RL they plan to close down RL production in mid 08 for retooling to accomodate the rumored 09 model changes?

larrynimmo

this car shown is an accord through and through. If this would be the future design of the RL, sales would go to zero