Should Acura build something bigger than the RL?
02-06-2006, 09:14 PM
#41
Three Wheelin'
In my opinion, the G35 has a cheap interior. That's why I immediately ruled it out for purchase. I think the M's interior is a vast improvement.
I will also be driving a TSX loaner car tomorrow, so I guess I'll let everyone know how it works out. So far it seems like a nimble little car.
I will also be driving a TSX loaner car tomorrow, so I guess I'll let everyone know how it works out. So far it seems like a nimble little car.
02-06-2006, 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by jhr3uva90
In my opinion, the G35 has a cheap interior. That's why I immediately ruled it out for purchase. I think the M's interior is a vast improvement.
I will also be driving a TSX loaner car tomorrow, so I guess I'll let everyone know how it works out. So far it seems like a nimble little car.
I will also be driving a TSX loaner car tomorrow, so I guess I'll let everyone know how it works out. So far it seems like a nimble little car.
One thing, though. Time your passing carefully. The TSX automatic is really slow starting out from a stop. It is better on the highway, but driving it makes you think the RL is a race car!
02-06-2006, 10:17 PM
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Originally Posted by mrdeeno
I actually find it ironic that the germans/Euros have the exact opposite problem of the Japanese makes.
When a Euro brand reaches lower, history has proven that it ends up as a flop.
When BMW went for the low end luxury market (RSX-level) with the 318ti, it flopped.
When MB went for the low end luxury market with the C-coupe, it flopped also.
Jag didn't reach down that far, just to near-lux level (TL/3-series/G) with the X-type, and that has to be the poster child for all flops.
I think it goes back to the "VALUE" thing...moving up the ladder, the importance of value decreases, but moving down the ladder the importance of value increases...and VALUE is the weakpoint for most Euro makes.
When a Euro brand reaches lower, history has proven that it ends up as a flop.
When BMW went for the low end luxury market (RSX-level) with the 318ti, it flopped.
When MB went for the low end luxury market with the C-coupe, it flopped also.
Jag didn't reach down that far, just to near-lux level (TL/3-series/G) with the X-type, and that has to be the poster child for all flops.
I think it goes back to the "VALUE" thing...moving up the ladder, the importance of value decreases, but moving down the ladder the importance of value increases...and VALUE is the weakpoint for most Euro makes.
I think the Luxury brands (MB, BMW, Audi, Lexus, Infiniti and Acura) all know which rung up the Luxury ladder they stand on. Moving up or down is not as easy as it was in the past. There have just been too many flops in recent memory for manufacturers not to realize the danger in getting it wrong.
Going back to my original post, "Should Acura build something bigger than the RL?" I think yes, but not before they upscale Acuras image. Getting rid of the RSX is absolutely a necessary first step. I'm just not sure how much time is going to be needed before a true Acura (S, 7, A8) equivilant will be fully accepted and embraced.
02-06-2006, 10:35 PM
#44
Originally Posted by mrdeeno
First of all, VW is the "people's brand" making "people's car"...it had no place in the premium market. The toureg does well simply because it's not astronomically priced like the phaeton and also because it's an SUV.
02-06-2006, 10:57 PM
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Originally Posted by psteng19
The Touareg is on a downhill slide and is not doing well at all.
The Porsche Cayenne's numbers seem to be holding steady though.
02-06-2006, 11:42 PM
#46
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Getting rid of the RSX is a good step, alright! Maybe they should offer only V6 engines and above while they're at it. Isn't that what Lexus and Infiniti are doing?
02-07-2006, 06:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Sopadepollo
Yes, that's because the badge says VW. The same car named Q7 will be more succesful dressed in some Audi sheetmetal.
The Porsche Cayenne's numbers seem to be holding steady though.
The Porsche Cayenne's numbers seem to be holding steady though.
I bet if China threw their worst performing SUV onto our market, it would probably sell relatively well.
I think the Honda Passport and Acura Trooper were doing relatively well in their days. No where near the volume of the MDX, but they were probably selling decently just because of the fact that they're SUVs.
What is this country coming to? Or to put it another way, where the hell is this country at?
02-07-2006, 07:39 AM
#48
Three Wheelin'
Basically, people are sheep who follow the rest of the flock. People will buy what other people buy. Some people will buy a Honda Accord simply because they see a lot of them on the road. The same thing goes for SUV's. Some people see that SUVs are popular and just go with what's popular. It's interesting to see single folks with no children driving large SUVs in Washington, DC, for example. Not only is a large SUV unnecessary in that environment, it's actually counterproductive. But that's the way it goes and that's why I think the RL needs to be an SUV, and it probably will be when the new MDX arrives. People won't be complaining about the price then; they'll just scoop it up.
02-07-2006, 08:23 AM
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Well, this IS amerikan society...and in amerika, you multiply what you NEED by the WANT factor. Then you get what you WANT. The WANT factor is on a graded scale depending on income and what the next door neighbor owns.
For example...a couple decides to start a family within the next year. They calculate what they NEED to be a lower-model midsize sedan...enough to haul groceries for a family of 2 adults + 1 infant as well as general transportation.
their WANT factor is determined by their household adjusted income of $90k and that they live in a middle-class suburb (parents left them decent inheritance), so neighbors drive Audi Allroads, MDX's, and RX330s. in this case, the WANT factor is 2.3
midsize sedan (ie Accord LX I-4) x 2.3 = Volvo XC90. they buy the XC90.
Don't ask how I determined the WANT factor. It's all scientific. I can give you a copy with the latest revisions of the WANT factor table...but my computer just crashed.
For example...a couple decides to start a family within the next year. They calculate what they NEED to be a lower-model midsize sedan...enough to haul groceries for a family of 2 adults + 1 infant as well as general transportation.
their WANT factor is determined by their household adjusted income of $90k and that they live in a middle-class suburb (parents left them decent inheritance), so neighbors drive Audi Allroads, MDX's, and RX330s. in this case, the WANT factor is 2.3
midsize sedan (ie Accord LX I-4) x 2.3 = Volvo XC90. they buy the XC90.
Don't ask how I determined the WANT factor. It's all scientific. I can give you a copy with the latest revisions of the WANT factor table...but my computer just crashed.
02-07-2006, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by mrdeeno
Well, this IS amerikan society...and in amerika, you multiply what you NEED by the WANT factor. Then you get what you WANT. The WANT factor is on a graded scale depending on income and what the next door neighbor owns.
For example...a couple decides to start a family within the next year. They calculate what they NEED to be a lower-model midsize sedan...enough to haul groceries for a family of 2 adults + 1 infant as well as general transportation.
their WANT factor is determined by their household adjusted income of $90k and that they live in a middle-class suburb (parents left them decent inheritance), so neighbors drive Audi Allroads, MDX's, and RX330s. in this case, the WANT factor is 2.3
midsize sedan (ie Accord LX I-4) x 2.3 = Volvo XC90. they buy the XC90.
Don't ask how I determined the WANT factor. It's all scientific. I can give you a copy with the latest revisions of the WANT factor table...but my computer just crashed.
For example...a couple decides to start a family within the next year. They calculate what they NEED to be a lower-model midsize sedan...enough to haul groceries for a family of 2 adults + 1 infant as well as general transportation.
their WANT factor is determined by their household adjusted income of $90k and that they live in a middle-class suburb (parents left them decent inheritance), so neighbors drive Audi Allroads, MDX's, and RX330s. in this case, the WANT factor is 2.3
midsize sedan (ie Accord LX I-4) x 2.3 = Volvo XC90. they buy the XC90.
Don't ask how I determined the WANT factor. It's all scientific. I can give you a copy with the latest revisions of the WANT factor table...but my computer just crashed.
02-07-2006, 12:57 PM
#51
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In my earlier days we referred to it as "Newvoris" (spelling).....basically "Monkey see, Monkey do"....... also tacky as trying to be like your neighbors......... 
02-07-2006, 12:59 PM
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It's hard to see Acura as a true luxury brand when they still have FWD and 4cyl cars. Once they ditch the RSX and maybe put the RDX engine into the redesigned TSX, and start making SH-AWD or RWD cars people would take them more seriously. There's not one FWD or 4cylinder car in Infiniti's line-up.
I read a thing about the RL that was written in like 2003 or something and they said the RL would have IMA and AWD I think. If the current car came with IMA I'm sure it would've done a lot better. Plus they need to market the hell out of it like Infiniti did with the G.
I read a thing about the RL that was written in like 2003 or something and they said the RL would have IMA and AWD I think. If the current car came with IMA I'm sure it would've done a lot better. Plus they need to market the hell out of it like Infiniti did with the G.
02-07-2006, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Fabvsix
In my earlier days we referred to it as "Newvoris" (spelling).....basically "Monkey see, Monkey do"....... also tacky as trying to be like your neighbors.........
02-07-2006, 01:33 PM
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Back to the initial point: Should Honda/Acura build a vehicle above the RL. Like others have said in this and previous threads, I vote NO.
To compete head-to-head with Toyota/Lexus and their new LS460 models? I don't see it. Please do not get me wrong, I L-O-V-E my RL and respect it for all the reasons (including intrinsic Value as suggested by others as well) mentioned above...but they are just weeing in the wind if they think they can compete at that level. And the Acura dealerships I have known could not support the Mega luxury dynamic either. Some could, most can't.
To compete head-to-head with Toyota/Lexus and their new LS460 models? I don't see it. Please do not get me wrong, I L-O-V-E my RL and respect it for all the reasons (including intrinsic Value as suggested by others as well) mentioned above...but they are just weeing in the wind if they think they can compete at that level. And the Acura dealerships I have known could not support the Mega luxury dynamic either. Some could, most can't.
02-07-2006, 01:48 PM
#55
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That's a good point about the dealerships. Maybe Acura could use some of that money getting the dealerships up to par instead of building the supercar that many of the dealerships would not be able to support anyway? Also, Acura could spend some of that money on product placement, event sponsorships, etc. that can enhance its brand image among people who don't know much about cars.
Let me put it this way: the hoi polloi didn't know or care about BMW until the 1980's when the car became a Yuppie cliche. Even now, half the BMW drivers are poseurs who don't really understand the benefits of such wonderful cars. Acura could benefit from that type of hype, and that requires something other than advertising and something other than building great big flagship cars.
Let me put it this way: the hoi polloi didn't know or care about BMW until the 1980's when the car became a Yuppie cliche. Even now, half the BMW drivers are poseurs who don't really understand the benefits of such wonderful cars. Acura could benefit from that type of hype, and that requires something other than advertising and something other than building great big flagship cars.
02-07-2006, 01:54 PM
#56
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I'm just the opposite! I like to have what my nieghbors DON'T have........
I'm just the opposite! I like to have what my nieghbors DON'T have........
02-07-2006, 03:00 PM
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Acura needs to create a size difference between TL and RL.
The RL should larger than a 5 series and smaller than a 7, the TL should be larger than 3, smaller than 5.
As it is there is too much overlap and a SHAWD TL would kill RL sales
The RL should larger than a 5 series and smaller than a 7, the TL should be larger than 3, smaller than 5.
As it is there is too much overlap and a SHAWD TL would kill RL sales
02-07-2006, 03:10 PM
#58
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Actually, there is a size difference between the 2006 TL and 2006 RL. Just look at the specs. Also, the lack of a size difference between the Lexus ES and GS doesn't seem to adversely affect sales of either car. And by the time the TL gets SH-AWD, the RL will probably have additional features (IMA, anyone?) that will differentiate it.
The EPA categorizes the TL as a compact and the RL as a midsize.
The EPA categorizes the TL as a compact and the RL as a midsize.
02-07-2006, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by jhr3uva90
Actually, there is a size difference between the 2006 TL and 2006 RL. Just look at the specs. Also, the lack of a size difference between the Lexus ES and GS doesn't seem to adversely affect sales of either car. And by the time the TL gets SH-AWD, the RL will probably have additional features (IMA, anyone?) that will differentiate it.
The EPA categorizes the TL as a compact and the RL as a midsize.
The EPA categorizes the TL as a compact and the RL as a midsize.
what they should do is "shift" their cars upmarket...in size/price/offerings.
when they do a redesign, for example, the TSX...the redesign should be the entry level player (near-lux segment) where the TL is right now. Maybe even bring the RSX to this level as a TSX coupe. This would compete with the 3/G/C/A4.
considering the size of the TL, a small bump would place it in the mid-size lux segment (GS/5/M/E).
And then RL will naturally be larger and compete slightly below the 7/S/LS class until people get used to "upmarket" acuras.
Doing it this way, they wouldn't have to introduce an "ALL NEW" model that may get shot down in the market.
Do the same thing with the SUV's...the RDX may be close enough in size to the MDX that the next MDX could get a bump in size, so instead of being a "large" midsize SUV, it'll be a "small" full-size SUV.
It might be unconventional, but I think it has a better chance by "weening" people into accepting a full size Acura, rather than slapping them in the face with an all new full size unknown model.
02-07-2006, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by mrdeeno
I don't think they "need" to introduce a car higher than the RL.
what they should do is "shift" their cars upmarket...in size/price/offerings.
when they do a redesign, for example, the TSX...the redesign should be the entry level player (near-lux segment) where the TL is right now. Maybe even bring the RSX to this level as a TSX coupe. This would compete with the 3/G/C/A4.
considering the size of the TL, a small bump would place it in the mid-size lux segment (GS/5/M/E).
And then RL will naturally be larger and compete slightly below the 7/S/LS class until people get used to "upmarket" acuras.
Doing it this way, they wouldn't have to introduce an "ALL NEW" model that may get shot down in the market.
Do the same thing with the SUV's...the RDX may be close enough in size to the MDX that the next MDX could get a bump in size, so instead of being a "large" midsize SUV, it'll be a "small" full-size SUV.
It might be unconventional, but I think it has a better chance by "weening" people into accepting a full size Acura, rather than slapping them in the face with an all new full size unknown model.
what they should do is "shift" their cars upmarket...in size/price/offerings.
when they do a redesign, for example, the TSX...the redesign should be the entry level player (near-lux segment) where the TL is right now. Maybe even bring the RSX to this level as a TSX coupe. This would compete with the 3/G/C/A4.
considering the size of the TL, a small bump would place it in the mid-size lux segment (GS/5/M/E).
And then RL will naturally be larger and compete slightly below the 7/S/LS class until people get used to "upmarket" acuras.
Doing it this way, they wouldn't have to introduce an "ALL NEW" model that may get shot down in the market.
Do the same thing with the SUV's...the RDX may be close enough in size to the MDX that the next MDX could get a bump in size, so instead of being a "large" midsize SUV, it'll be a "small" full-size SUV.
It might be unconventional, but I think it has a better chance by "weening" people into accepting a full size Acura, rather than slapping them in the face with an all new full size unknown model.
02-07-2006, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Motohip
It's hard to see Acura as a true luxury brand when they still have FWD and 4cyl cars. Once they ditch the RSX and maybe put the RDX engine into the redesigned TSX, and start making SH-AWD or RWD cars people would take them more seriously. There's not one FWD or 4cylinder car in Infiniti's line-up.
I read a thing about the RL that was written in like 2003 or something and they said the RL would have IMA and AWD I think. If the current car came with IMA I'm sure it would've done a lot better. Plus they need to market the hell out of it like Infiniti did with the G.
I read a thing about the RL that was written in like 2003 or something and they said the RL would have IMA and AWD I think. If the current car came with IMA I'm sure it would've done a lot better. Plus they need to market the hell out of it like Infiniti did with the G.
Audi has 4 cylinder and FWD in their car lineup and they are doing very well!! Comparing Acura to Infiniti is not accurate. Acura seems to be following Audi's lead with their high output 4 & 6 cylinder, FWD based AWD option with their cars. Infiniti has clearly decided to copy BMW/MB in their powertrain/chassis department.
Different views, absolutely, but to say, and I quote: "It's hard to see Acura as a true luxury brand when they still have FWD and 4cyl cars" is more of a personal opinion that Audi has clearly proven is not the case.
02-07-2006, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Sopadepollo
Audi has 4 cylinder and FWD in their car lineup and they are doing very well!! Comparing Acura to Infiniti is not accurate. Acura seems to be following Audi's lead with their high output 4 & 6 cylinder, FWD based AWD option with their cars. Infiniti has clearly decided to copy BMW/MB in their powertrain/chassis department.
Different views, absolutely, but to say, and I quote: "It's hard to see Acura as a true luxury brand when they still have FWD and 4cyl cars" is more of a personal opinion that Audi has clearly proven is not the case.
Different views, absolutely, but to say, and I quote: "It's hard to see Acura as a true luxury brand when they still have FWD and 4cyl cars" is more of a personal opinion that Audi has clearly proven is not the case.
The A8 is fwd based...but since fwd doesn't work in the upper echelons of the luxury market, it's AWD standard.
So in theory, Acura doesn't NEED a rwd model to move up the luxury ladder.
But Audi has a v8.
That being said though, it's much easier to move up with rwd, but there's no example of any brand moving up without a v8.
They can defy convention and offer hybrid models instead...but I can't believe that even though Honda was the first to come to market with a hybrid, Toyota/Lexus have been leaving them in the dust in both the regular (prius, highlander) and luxury (rx400h, gs450h, and soon ls[whatever]h) markets.
02-07-2006, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by mrdeeno
And then RL will naturally be larger and compete slightly below the 7/S/LS class until people get used to "upmarket" acuras.
Doing it this way, they wouldn't have to introduce an "ALL NEW" model that may get shot down in the market.
Doing it this way, they wouldn't have to introduce an "ALL NEW" model that may get shot down in the market.
02-07-2006, 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Sopadepollo
Audi has 4 cylinder and FWD in their car lineup and they are doing very well!! Comparing Acura to Infiniti is not accurate. Acura seems to be following Audi's lead with their high output 4 & 6 cylinder, FWD based AWD option with their cars. Infiniti has clearly decided to copy BMW/MB in their powertrain/chassis department.
Different views, absolutely, but to say, and I quote: "It's hard to see Acura as a true luxury brand when they still have FWD and 4cyl cars" is more of a personal opinion that Audi has clearly proven is not the case.
Different views, absolutely, but to say, and I quote: "It's hard to see Acura as a true luxury brand when they still have FWD and 4cyl cars" is more of a personal opinion that Audi has clearly proven is not the case.
02-07-2006, 07:42 PM
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Originally Posted by mrdeeno
Actually, audi doesn't really have an RWD based car in their lineup either.
The A8 is fwd based...but since fwd doesn't work in the upper echelons of the luxury market, it's AWD standard.
So in theory, Acura doesn't NEED a rwd model to move up the luxury ladder.
But Audi has a v8.
That being said though, it's much easier to move up with rwd, but there's no example of any brand moving up without a v8.
They can defy convention and offer hybrid models instead...but I can't believe that even though Honda was the first to come to market with a hybrid, Toyota/Lexus have been leaving them in the dust in both the regular (prius, highlander) and luxury (rx400h, gs450h, and soon ls[whatever]h) markets.
The A8 is fwd based...but since fwd doesn't work in the upper echelons of the luxury market, it's AWD standard.
So in theory, Acura doesn't NEED a rwd model to move up the luxury ladder.
But Audi has a v8.
That being said though, it's much easier to move up with rwd, but there's no example of any brand moving up without a v8.
They can defy convention and offer hybrid models instead...but I can't believe that even though Honda was the first to come to market with a hybrid, Toyota/Lexus have been leaving them in the dust in both the regular (prius, highlander) and luxury (rx400h, gs450h, and soon ls[whatever]h) markets.
Absolutely true on the V8 beign needed for the upper luxury ranks. I'm sure Honda/Acura realize this too & I wouldn't be surprised if they do come out with a V8. But seing as Acura has set such a hich benchmark with their powerful V6's, any new Honda/Acura V8 will absolutely have to be a monster 400+hp beast. It seems nowadays with the horsepower wars that a V8 in the low 300hp range is quickly becoming outdated. The new MB550 is a monster engine! Not to mention the new Audi 4.2L FSI V8 rated at around 420 bhp that's going into the new RS4, wow!!
Plus I'll bet Lexus has no plans in putting that sweet IS350 306hp V6 engine in the GS. It'll make the GS430 obsolete.
02-08-2006, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by hcekc
Henceforth, it shall now be known as the XL!
I'm tellin' ya, Acura should be the first to start naming cars using the Greek alphabet!
I can see the full page ads now!
"It is the BEGINNING!"
"It is the END!"
"It is.....the 2009 Acura ALPHA-OMEGA!!!"
02-08-2006, 07:12 PM
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acura should work on selling the RL well before trying to make a more expensive flagship sedan. If the RL isnt selling well at its price range, what more if there is a more expensive flagship. Total disaster if you ask me
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