SpicyMikey

After a few weekends of test driving a bunch of cars, I'm zeroed in on the RL CMBS Pkg and the Infiniti M35/Advanced Tech Pkg. My main reason is the adaptive cruise available in both. Having a "bad" right leg, the smart cruise is a GREAT feature. I have it on my other car and wouldn't buy another car without it now that I've experienced the benefits.

However, what about this CMBS feature? Any feedback on it? Is it an asset or a liability? False alarms, etc.

On paper it sounds great but just looking for real life experiences

lland

There was a recent discussion about this HERE.

The general consensus is that CMBS owners are very happy they have it and you won't be sorry if you get it.

LL

johnhayd

I've owned my 2006 rl with cmbs/acc for 1 year. One reason I picked the rl over the m35 was CMBS. Overall I'm happy with it. The CMBS has activated with the light and tone about once per week. In the vast majority of cases, I agree with it's warning. False alarms are rare. As they mention in the instructional video, it can give a false alarm if you're going downhill and cross railroad tracks. In this situation, If you lightly press the brake pedal, the problem is solved. I've also had the cmbs activate a few times since I've owned the car with the belt retraction and automatic braking: typically this is when I'm distracted on the cell phone (yes even handsfree talking can be distracting) in rush hour traffic. I've had no false alarms that resulted in braking and the belt retracting.

I looked at the M35 as well. As far as I know, it doesn't give you a warning or automatically brake for you unless the acc is on. I would suggest you check out infiniti fora: ( http://infiniti-driver.com/ and freshalloy.com) the last time I checked, they we having trouble with the ACC malfunctioning: It wouldn't brake in time! The infiniti system uses infrared light, acura uses radar. From what i've read, the infrared system is more sensitive to weather and doesn't work if the windshield wipers are on.

Chas2

I agree that CMBS is worthwhile. I agree with every one of the activations, which have, with one exception, been level 1 warnings. I did once get to level 2 warning, where the belt was tugging on you, and I was coming up on a BMW very quickly in a left turn where he decided to go move out, then stop abruptly. You hit those brakes pretty fast when the CMBS warnings go off with the seat belt tugging on you!

The ACC also works well, when someone cuts in front of you, the car will brake itself to slow down. It can be a little disconcerting at first to have the car brake itself. If the cut in front of you is perilously close, and the ACC braking cannot slow you down fast enough, the CMBS starts going off. This has only happened a couple of times, but I agreed with each of those alarms.

VOdoc

Agree with all that's been said. Only 1 false alarm in 6,000 miles. The earlier thread had the same tone. I couldn't imagine having a car without ACC/CMBS. In fact it should be required on all cars and someday probably will, as part of the "smart freeway" idea to reduce accidents and improve throughput.

One question: when ACC slows the car--which it does often in herky-jerky L.A. traffic--does it use only engine braking or does it get on the brakes too? Put another way, are the pads going to wear out sooner and, more importantly, does using ACC in heavy traffic make me look like an incompetent fool to drivers behind me?

sotiri

it uses the BRAKES.

VOdoc

Thought so. OK, incompetent fool it is.

Chas2

ACC use of brakes is a gentle to a firm slow down, depending on the situation. You will never get anywhere near a medium or heavy braking in my experience. It tends to only do this if someone cuts in front of you or slows down a lot.

Of course, US 29 in VA is not even close to how I remember the 5, 405, 10, 101, etc in LA. Most of the time, I would not even think of using the ACC, way too crowded, especially along the South Bay curve and near the airport when I was there.

RL06tech

The ACC and CMBS overlap. If left to its own devices the system will brake strongly. However, the expirience can be hair raising since the CMBS activates very close to the other car. I have used the "auto pilot" to decelerate from highway speeds almost to a stop by following another vehicle. Once you start getting too clolse the brake light will flash. The system is great and it really works, however the CMBS is calibrated in such a way that it will usually activate past the point you would start to feel you are seriously tailgating. If you are driving agressively and cutting in an out of traffic at "hair" margins the system will activate, thus if you are doing race style maneuvers it's easier just to turn it off.

backfire

I believe the system was intended for the normal driving habits of most people. If you drive by cutting in and out of traffic the system will not help you. I don't think it was made or intended for crazy driving, but to help you out of trouble not allowing you to get into trouble

Chas2

I have to say I have not ever been in a situation with the ACC where it has also activated CMBS, at least that I can remember. The only time CMBS has been activated for me was when ACC was off, usually in a suburban traffic situation, and maybe I am not paying close attention. Yes, I agree the CMBS activates much closer than I am comfortable with, past the point of serious tailgating, as you note...and I believe it has saved me from a crash, you stand on the brakes when the MID starts flashing, and try and push it through the floor when the seat belts start tugging at you.

I have been in situations where I am set at 69 or so, and then come up on a car that is going slower, and then slows down even more, and the car will brake and keep me two seconds behind, scrubbing speed off down to near 50, so it is interesting that it will go to a near stop. Usually ACC cuts off for me at 25 mph.

SpicyMikey

Thanks guys. I started this thread last week and have been reading along with the comments. I also read the original thread on this subject. The CMBS sounds great. I already have a car with ACC so I know that's a great feature as well. I have a bad right leg and being able to auto cruise on highway trip makes it great.

I've also asked questions about the PAX tires also and gotten some great feedback here from you guys. Although it's not a perfect situation, I've decided it wouldn't hold me back from getting this car.

I went to the dealer yesterday and made a deal for a White/Parchment RL with CMBS. There's only 7 in the whole state of Florida with none on the inbound lists. Not an easy car to find! Found this particular one in Ft. Lauderdale.

Talking with the dealer he said the new RL's (and a couple other models) are rolling out early this year. That's why there's no more RL's inbound from Japan. He showed me there was NO SIGNIFICANT CHANGE to the RL for '08 and he was placing his 90 day order for '08 RL's this week. Even the PAX tires are still married to the CMBS package. That was what I was looking to find out because I may have waited until July if that had changed.

Again, thanks for all the insight and advice on the RL. Hopefully I'll take delivery next week

VOdoc

Congrats Mikey! Great decision. Please let us know when the blessed event arrives (so to speak).

Chas2

I guess that is a good way of summarizing it--not a perfect situation, but it did not stop me from getting the car. I sometimes regret not being able to add the A-Spec suspension, but then I have not been big into mods. In truth, the car works very well with the PAX, and I love the ACC and the added security of CMBS.

You wonder if they will ever add the LKAS and the night vision options in the US. I don't know if it is price point or liability. Probably some of both since the US version does not get cooled seats.

SpicyMikey

The night vision would have been slick to have but the lack of ventilated seats is disappointing. That's one of those mysteries. Unless you are in the coldest areas of the country, the heated seats seems like a waste. Why they make that standard is beyond me. I'd think ventilated seats would be more desirable, although, being in Florida, I might have a slanted perspective on it.

Chas2

Why Canada gets the cooled, and not us (the USA) I cannot understand. The headlight washers, I can understand, but cooled seats? Afterall, we do have places fromCalifornia to Florida where it is hot!

vicneo

the cmbs is a must have
it has saved my life for sure on one oxccasion and probabely on the second ( i am not sure - fell asleep on the wheel)

RL06tech

25 mph is right, that's "near a stop" in my book As soon as it drops to below that speed and you do not brake, if still approaching another vehicle, the CMBS will light the Brake light. The same is also true if cruising and some one cuts you off and brakes suddenly. Remember, although they give it 2 names its really all the same system one part of the system works all the time (CMBS) while the other part only (distance following) works when you tell it to . BTW only mercedes (on their S models) and the RL have collision mitigation systems, Infinity only has ACC. Volvo's collision system is only an alert, it will not brake for you.

SpicyMikey

A little update on this story.

After another close call last week (without my CMBS system reaching stage 2), I took my RL into the dealer again. This time I was more insistent with everyone that something is wrong. The first time they ran diagnostics (which checked out) and we all decided that maybe I wasn't closing on the car in front of me fast enough.

The lead mechanic in the shop sat in the car with me as we took it for a test. He agreed, it's not resonding quick enough. He started going through the tech manuals and the online settings and found something called "CMBS Near" and "CMBS Far". My car had it set to "near". We figured that must be it, but, nothing he saw in his software allowed him to change that parameter. We struggled for an hour.

We left it at that and he said he'd need to call Acura. Got a call from him yesterday and he said he's struggling to get answers. He said they told him this "Near/Far" setting was something they were going to offer but then pulled it out of the system before they went to production in 05. They said to ignore that. However, they still can't offer a suggestion on how to fix it or calibrate it. We're waiting for them to get back to us.

Anyone been down this road already? Any suggestions for me or my mechanic? The dealer has been good. They are trying but dealing with Acura is tough. He actually warned me this would be ugly before he even called.

bconnell

I have never had this fail. It has saved me 2x in light traffic. The distance setting seems fine to me. I am however an aggressive driver.
It does misfire when I drive through parking structures sometimes but that is acceptable and corrected by a tap on the brake ( which you should have ready in a parking structure anyway).
One cool note on the acc & cmbs together though - I drove to vegas and after my dinner stop in barstow I didnt use the break or gas once. I left the acc on 80 and it worked like a charm even through some rough spots of 25 mph construction traffic. I didnt have to hit the brake until the tropicana exit. There were a few hair raising spots where trucks cut in front of me and the "BRAKE" came on and slowed the card dramatically. I was ready for the brake, but never had to use it.

SpicyMikey

Actually, my system seems to work in those situations too. I've been on a street where the car in front of me was turning and I didn't break since I knew he would be out of my way in time. Of course, the CMBS didn't know that and warned me. It seems to work in those close up situations. However, it doesn't work as advertised. According to the manual (and even this months Acura magazine, the system is supposed to start warning you up to a footballs length away when you are closing to fast on a car. if you don't respond, it is supposed to tug on your seat belt, if you still don't respond, at the last second, it jams on the breaks.

I've tested it on the highway doing 70 and intentionally ran up to a truck doing 50. It never did anything as described. At the last possible moment, it initiated stage 1 and warned me. At that point I needed to jam on my breaks pretty hard to avoid hitting. If the system hadnt warned me at that moment I was probably less then a second away from jaming on my breaks myself.

RL06tech

I don't think anyone in their right mind would ever activate the CMBS purposefuly. You have to really close to activate the entire system, it brakes when it determines a collision is unavoidable and you haven't braked at all. The only time I have expirienced it aside from a BRAKE flashing was in a sudden panic stop in highway traffic, it only got to the flashing point since I immediately slapped on the brake (rapid transition from mid throttle acceleration to immediate strong braking. Doing so activated the brake assist (full ABS). The systems instantaneous response definitely saved me from plowing into the car in front of me at highway speeds. IMO the most you will be able to elicit out of the system under "tolerable" conditions is the seatbelt tug, to get the braking action is probably too close for anyone's comfort to test.

SpicyMikey

Agreed. You can't "see" the stage 3 system work because at that point (as defined in the manual) it's too late and you will hit the vehicle. However, the manual describes stage 1 as 300 feet with a closing rate of greater then 10mph, it describes stage 2 a bit more vaguely. It says "if you don't react to stage 1 it will tug on the seat belt.

"Don't try this at home", but, I accelerated on the highway and ran up to a tractor trailer at a fast closing speed, 20mph+. The vehicle went to stage 1 when I was at the point where it was "almost" too late to react. It never went to stage 2. According to the dealer (and a few salesmen who drove these cars), that's not how it should be working.

So, I think we've determined it's broken, the problem is trying to find out how to fix it. LL sent me an offline email and gave me the name of the mechanic who fixed his "broken" cmbs system. I'm going to give it to my dealer. Evidently you need special equipment. That could be the holdup here.

lland

Well, on the way home yesterday, a picup truck in front of me decided to make a right turn at the last minute and slowed very quickly. I saw him hit the brakes but also had plenty of room on the left to go around him so didn't even try to slow down. The CMBS system looks stright ahead and didn't see the opening on the left. I've had some visual CMBS warnings, gentle tugs and slowing in the past but for the first time, the car pulled the safety belts tight and slowed the car forcefully while it beeped and flashed "BRAKE" on the MID. Very impressive.

LL

SpicyMikey

Hey LL, can you define the situation a bit better (distances, rate of closure, etc.) I want to see if I've duplicated that scenerio already. In the back of my mind I still keep wondering if I'm just overestimating the system and/or not performing a proper test. I gotta say, I've gotten about as daring as I think I can get without risking a real accident. The first car I "tested" it with turned out to be an older gentlemen. When I cut out of the lane at the last second and passed him he looked over at me with his eyes wide open That's when I decided to try my testing with trucks

lland

[QUOTE=SpicyMikey]...can you define the situation a bit better (distances, rate of closure, etc.)...[QUOTE]


O.K. I'll try...

Typically, when I get a "brake" message or gentle seat belt tug, I'm pretty close, maybe two car lengths, but I'm ususally going pretty slow. Yesterday, the right turn was at a light that had been green so I kind of sped up to get to it before it turned red. When the CMBS activated, I was probably going 45 or so and maybe 100 feet away when the truck hit the brakes. It didn't take the car long to react.

On occasion, I attempt to "trick" the system into activating but find that I usually activate before the CMBS and once you have your foot on the brake, I guess it assumes you are aware of the situation and doesn't intervene. The times it has activated have typically been when a car has either pulled in ahead of me or slowed quickly. My feeling has always been that it takes too long to activate (i.e. when I'm too close to the car ahead of me) but after yesterday, it's clear that CMBS reacts, and how it reacts, is based on your speed as well as distance. Remember, it's a collision mitigation system, not an avoidance system.

Hope this helps.

LL

SpicyMikey

Thanks. That helped.

Sounds like my system is not acting right. There's no way I've ever been able to get it to go to stage 1 unless I was "seconds" from impact. I've never seen it go to stage 2 (seat belt tug).

By the way, you are correct about it "sensing" your awareness. With all my testing I learned that it will not react it you touch the brake OR turn the steering wheel (even a tad). Must have a torque sensor in the wheel. To trick it into thinking you are missing the danger you need to go full steam ahead with your foot on the gas and no course changes. Otherwise, it figures you are alert and aware of things and delays intervention.

lland

If you've never hit stage 2, you should have it checked. I've gotten "the tug" a number of times, when approaching another car but with no apparent imminent impact. Yesterday was the first time I got to "third base" (so to speak) - hard braking and strong belt tightening.

If you want to drive up to PA, I know my dealer has the equipment to check it out...you can visit relatives!

LL

SpicyMikey

Thanks L I may just do that sometime this summer.

Just got off the phone with one of the lead mechanics at Fountain Acura. He said he was on the phone with acura for an hour and is just as frustrated as I am now. Basically, Acura will not provide any info regarding specifications for system performance. They say it's a "legal thing". Rob said the Acura rep was actually saying "I cannot answer that question" like a witness would respond to a cop in an interrogation!. Acording to Acura, if there's no DTC's and the cruise is working then the CMBS "works". Thanks a lot!

I gave him the name of your mechanic and suggested he call him. We agreed the next step is to take the radar gun off the car and do a bench test, as well as test the pretentioning system.

Another thing I'm thinking of doing is getting one of those punching bag dummys (the kind you had when you were a kid). Rap some tin foil around it and run into it to prove the system doesn't work . If nothing else it might releave so stress

kmcheney

Spicymikey,
When you attempt to test your system are you putting any pressure whatsoever on the brake pedal? I've noticed that if I am using the brake in the slightest the system seems to assume I know what I'm doing and not intervene. It's when I don't have my foot on the brake and someone slows to turn in front of me and I'm closing at any kind of speed that it activates. As soon as I put the slightest pressure on the brake pedal it quiets.

Don't know if that helps.

SpicyMikey

Thanks. I realized that from trial and error also. My tests that make me think it's not working have been pretty good IMO. I'm careful not to touch the brake OR jog the steering wheel at all. Also try not to let up on the gas either.

It just doesn't seem to respond until the very last second, and even then, it's only stage one. Curious, did you ever experience stage 2 or 3 like LL? His experience seems to match the description in the manual very accurately. Mine doesn't

lland

Ready for this...

On the way home last night...same time, same light, same right turn, different pickup truck (this one was red, the other was blue)...slams on the brakes to make the turn. Only this time I didn't have room on the left to go around but did have room to show down on my own. No CMBS.

I need to find a different way home...

LL

SpicyMikey

As I expected, acura client services contacted me yesterday and basically blew me off. Their position was basically this; The dealer technician plugged the system into the computer and got no error codes. The fact that the ACC is working means the radar is functional. There's nothing more to check. Have a nice day.

As you can imagine, that's not quite good enough for me. They are completely ignoring the very important fact that the system does not perform according to their own documentation. Also, the dealership lead sales guy, who has driven these CMBS cars before, took it for a test drive and agreed it's not working.

I can't believe Acura would ignore some fairly good evidence about a safety feature problem and go simply buy a simple circuit test -- especially since my technician at the dealership admitted never working on a CMBS RL. There could easily be a bad sensor that (although working) may be working below specs and throwing off the control modules decision making. The CMBS is a very complicated system with many sensory inputs.

Anyone have any suggestions on how to escalate this? The rep said I could write a letter, but he admitted the letter would just end up back at him.

Also, is there a way to do a poll on this site? Not sure how many CMBS users there are but I'd love to propose a simple test on the road and see how everyone's car responds to the same basic test.

nyjohnchan

I'm on the same boat with you. All I get back from the service is the CMBS function normal. I guest it will take someone to hire a lawyer or even file a class action suit to get Acura's attention. If taht the case I'm for the class action. I think you can also file a complaint with the NTSB.

SpicyMikey

The problem here is that we can't be certain it's NOT working. Not sure how to file suit for such a claim.

I guess the thing that has me really anoyed is that they can't be certain it IS working! They've built a system onto this car that really can't be tested. You could say it's kind of like the air bag system. You just hope it will work when you need it without any active way to test it. However, unlike the airbag system, we have some evidence here from direct observation that something isn't working. The "performance" of this feature just doesn't reconcile with their own documentation. To ignore these evidentiary facts seems wrong. I've gotta find a way to get their attention short of filing a law suit.

sotiri

the helms manual says how to test it.
even if there are no codes.
its actually a mechanical test, using a metal plate.

Chas2

Do you mind describing the test in detail?

SpicyMikey

Which Helms manual is the info in? Do you know specifically? Thanks for any info you can provide.

Also, I don't think it's a radar problem with my car. So, unless the test will confirm the systems reaction times, etc. It is probably not going to prove my case. I don't think my radar gun is malfunctioning since my ACC works perfectly

sotiri

Its in the electrical service book I believe.
your issue could be the angle of the radar array, or it could be the CMBS software module.
There is also a way to set the sensitivity of the CMBS from high to low and back.
That is an option that is described in helm manual.
Force the service dept to investigate that too.
Lastly, the Helm manual will cost you only about $150, and its worth every penny.

SpicyMikey

Agreed. I've had service manuals in my "past life" when I had time for such things. Thought I was past that now I just ordered the 07 books. They were actually only $80 for the entire set. The new 08 manuals were much more.

You're right about there being a "high/low" setting on the CMBS. The tech's saw that when they had plugged it into their computer. Unfortunately they couldn't find a way to change the setting (I was standing there with them and I couldn't see the way either). The dealership's lead tech called the Acura Tech line the next day and they told them that option was disabled at the last minute and never implemented in the U.S. market. It's available in Canada. I suspect that might be what the blank button is on my steering wheel next to the Adaptive Cruise high/low button.

I'll get to the bottom of this. I'm very persistent I'll post any info I learn here.