jhr3uva90

Oops! Maybe a cheaper RL will make the haters happy:

http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dl...t=newsletter02

Rob L

Nah they will then bitch it doesn't come standard with enough features.

They will still "hate" on the car simply because most humans are idiots and somehow get enjoyment out of trashing something they don't like to people who own that product. It is funny...I think MB cars are crap but I do not go onto MB boards (or any forum) and explain to those owners why I do not like the cars and why I chose not to buy one. Dunno why people feel the need to waste their time like that but hey, to each their own I guess.

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

The only thing I could think of that they could remove in terms of feature content would be the Nav. But that's only going to be a $2000 price difference.

I really don't see this as being the way to go. Instead, better advertising and more exposure to non-automotive press would be helpful in exposing the car to an audience outside the enthusiast community.

Treblig

A better and more agressive marketing job might help or maybe Acura will just always be a well kept secret.

andrewgg2

This is all market games; If you want to increase sales start offering V-8 with 350HP, and only offer ONSTAR as option. RL is slow for a 300HP car.

Precision Crafted

The RL weighs way too much. 290 HP is fine if it was moving a lighter load. I'm not sure if a V8 will fit well considering the platform is shared with the TL, TSX, and Accord. So making drastic changes may not be too possible.

Acura messed up plain and simple. Honda has always marched to the beat of a different drummer but when the pressure got too high a V6 was added to the Accord. Acura is going to have to decide how to market a full luxury car. Marketing is poor and the design is too Honda. Acura should set the tone and lessor Acuras and to some extend Honda's should carry some themes.

I read an article (I think the New York Times) where they said the TSX was a good car but they could tell it was Accord based in terms of the placement of the base of the windshield and seating placement.

The RL also needed a 6 spd auto right off the bat. An Audi/VW style DSG would have been even better.

I feel sorry for Acura right now.

jhr3uva90

If Acura wants to increase RL sales right now, they could reduce the MSRP. The car is actually selling for about $44, 00 to $46,000, so why not set the MSRP from $46,000 to $47,000? It would cost Acura almost nothing to change the price, and then they could hype up the new pricing in print ads that they probably already paid for.

What about the 2007 model year? Obviously, Honda could not create a RWD version of the RL by then, nor could they make a V8 in that time (and that's assuming the Global Midsize Platform could accommodate such an engine). I'm warning you: what I'm about to say is heresy!

Acura should offer a FWD version of the RL.

The RL is already a FWD platform with AWD added. It would take relatively little effort to create a FWD version. We all know the disadvantages of FWD, but here are the advantages:

1. Like I mentioned, it would take little effort to create a FWD version of the RL.

2. FWD is the cheapest drive configuration, which is why it is on most cars. A FWD version of the RL could have an MSRP of $40K or less.

3. Why would any sane person buy a FWD RL when there's already a FWD TL for less money? Why would any sane person buy a Toyota Avalon when you can get the Camry for less? Basically, you have a cadre of customers who drive the 2nd generation TL (1999-2003) and are not too pleased with the current TL younger styling or smaller size. They could be convinced to spend an extra $4,000 or $5,000 on an Acura that is slightly larger than the TL, with a larger engine, more horsepower and a more conservative look. This is similar to people who are willing to spend more money for an Avalon which is slightly larger than the Camry and has a more conservative look.

4. FWD RL would weigh a lot less than the AWD version.

5. You've got a bunch of drivers who don't know or care about the difference between RWD and FWD. All they care about is not having AWD, because they wrongly equate AWD with snow.

So those are my recommendations for Acura. Next I'll talk about what the damn dealers could do.

jhr3uva90

Now for part 2: the Dealers.

The article is mostly about the Acura dealers. One part of the article really interested me:

"It's at a price point in foreign territory for us," Mike McGrath, chairman of the Acura dealer council, said at the National Automobile Dealers Association convention here.

The Acura RL is at a price point that is "foreign territory" FOR THE DEALERS. The simple fact is that many Acura dealerships are ill equipped to sell such a car and even less equipped to service it. Many of these dealerships have spent the past 20 years selling and servicing mostly Acura Integras and RSX's. Some of them fail to realize that, of you are going to attempt to sell a Lexus-like car, you will need Lexus-like service. How many potential RL buyers were turned away because the salesmen didn't know the unique features of the car? How many salesmen were unable to explain SH-AWD in a compelling way, mainly because they don't understand it themselves? How many Acura service departments are giving customers service worthy of a $50,000 car? What have you gotten from your Acura dealer that you can't get from a Honda dealer?

I'm not sure what Acura can do to solve this problem, since I don't think they actually own any dealerships. However, I think they should strongly encourage Acura salesmen to visit their competition's showrooms to get some clues.

ilas

I agree, and I luckily have access to an awesome dealer, who treats me like a king when I take either my RL or MDX in. They always have a loner car, and will go out of the way to make my service experience great, like car washes, warming up your car before pickup, free food, etc. However, I once took my MDX to another dealer in Detroit while visiting relatives, and they were terrible. They reminded my of VW dealers from my dub days. They were rude, could care less about my inconvenience, and there were almost no amenities.

My fear now is that down-grading to a lower RL even as an option will probably hurt resale value for new RLs in the very short term. Dealers will also probably be giving away 06's by the end of the year.

Still, I love my RL and still would buy it if I had it to do over again

jhr3uva90

I wonder how a FWD RL would hurt resale value of an AWD RL? Wouldn't increased unit sales help resale value?

ilas

Yes that's true, but do you think they will go FWD? I think they will cut navi, the fancy headlights, XM radio, possibly DVD audio, and maybe keyless operation, etc to drop the price. I think if they lose AWD they might kill the Rls only identity and possibly make it too close to the TL. It will be interesting to see what they mean by reducing equipment.

jhr3uva90

Well, dealers are the ones who are saying that the price is going to drop, according to the article. Acura hasn't said anything, except that there would be changes. However, I personally think a FWD RL would be a good bridge between the TL and AWD RL similar to how the Avalon is a bridge between the Camry and the Lexus ES. I'm not saying the Acura would sell a lot of FWD RL's, but it would be a relatively inexpensive way to increase sales a bit, plus it would allow Acura to say the the base price of the car is $40K or less, even if such a car would basically be a slightly bigger Japanese TL with a slightly bigger engine and more gadgets.

ilas

I wonder how easy it would be to convert the car to FWD given that all of its systems, such as stability control, are integrated. It would probably be too costly to re-engineer the drivetrain and then drop the price substantially, that is unless they just go back to the simply accord platform. The Acura haters will then label it as an expensive accord. Maybe I should have followed the lemmings and bought a letherette interior relatively stripped 530xi for slightly more than my RL. At least my car would win approval from Autospies and other blindly pro-German car websites. ...sigh....

jhr3uva90

I assumed that they could just put the TL's drivetrain, stability control, etc. on the RL. After all, Honda was using the Accord as a test mule for SH AWD, so why not use another car's drivetrain?

The goal, in my opinion, is to close the gap between the price of the TL and the price of the RL, while giving sticker shoppers something more reasonable on the MSRP. It might not help substantially, but it wouldn't cost a whole lot to try (in my opinion).

Of course, Acura could go the other way and add MORE stuff while keeping the same price.

Tully44

This may be a bit of a rant. But it should all come together in the end.

Anyone remember Lexus' & Infiniti's ad campaigns (circa 1989) when their flagships were introduced? While Lexus would continuously avertise the car in all media, Infiniti was selective in its' media campaign and never...NEVER showed the car in their ads. While Inifiniti based their advertising campaign on unknown expectations, Lexus was showing the public what the LS looked like and was selling cars like hotcakes (keep in mind that both Nissan and Toyota were considered equal back then in dependability and reliability).

Move forward 15 years. Acura has a great product equal to the M35 and GS 300 in price and features (almost everything being apples to apples). But their advertsing stinks. Acura advertising (for the most part) always lacked common sense. Whoever decided to get rid of the name 'Legend'...I hope he/she now works in the sewers of New York city without protection.

The Acura RL doesn't have a perception among the public because it gets such little advertising. Acura need to step up not only their advertising, but also the support they give to the dealerships. Here in L.A., I see little print media for the RL (i.e. Newsweek, Time, Forbes, BusinessWeek, L.A. Times, etc.). Television commercials advertised for both the RSX and Infinity M run 5:1 vs the RL (and Infiniti has limited TV exposure). Lexus...not only do they give 'good ads', but their perception and expecations proceeds them.

The problem with Acura isn't the product. It is with their advertising. Like any business that wants to succeed, you have to advertise the product to generate sales. Acura doesn't sell the product. Maybe the lack of a V8 is hurting sales. Then again, 75%+ of all M's and GS' will come with a six under the hood (and less then 15% will be AWD).

Acura: Sell the darn product!!

jhr3uva90

Tully44, you make some good points. The RL needs more advertising, while the TSX, TL, and soon to be defunct RSX need less. Also, they need to do what they can to get the dealerships up to par. A couple of points to consider:

1. It was actually a good idea Long Term to change the model names to alphanumeric designations. There are people who, to this day, know what a Legend is but don't know it is an Acura. If you want to build the Acura brand name, you need to emphasize the Acura brand name, not the car model. That is why Mercedes, BMW, and Lexus have pretty much always used confusing alphanumeric model names, and why Cadillac is going in that direction. The problem is, now that the model names have been de-emphasized, the name Acura needs to be heavily emphasized. What does it mean to have an Acura? What perception is portrayed?

2. Studies have shown the TV ads don't work that well for selling cars. The fact that people are increasingly using Tivo-like devices, watching more cable TV, and are generally watching less commercial TV makes TV ads less effective. I'm not saying Acura should have no TV ads whatsoever, they just should not rely too heavily on them.

Think about it this way: BMW was not a major seller in the US until the 1980's when it became the yuppie car of choice. TV ads would not have worked as well as the product placement among a certain group of people. Cadillac was fading out until the Escalade became the hip-hop culture/athelete's ride of choice. Again, that endorsement helped sales more than TV advertising could. What influential, style-setting group would choose an Acura?

Treblig

I think a FWD RL would be a much harder sell than the RL is right now. The current RL is being criticized in the marketplace for having a V6 when the competitors offer V8's. They would have a field day if Acura introduced an FWD RL, with a V6 to boot! Besides, the TL would be it's biggest competitor.

TSX69

I agree: if they strip this automobile too much {less features, FWD w/ less HP to avoid torque steer}, then they basically have a TL.

jhr3uva90

I think we would ALL like to see an RL with a V8 or V10 engine. However, Acura needs to increase RL sales now, and a V10 might be years away, assuming it the RL could even accomodate such an engine. The RL is an AWD car built on a FWD platform, so it should not be that hard to put a FWD drivetrain into it. The automotive press might snicker, but they aren't the ones buying the cars. For example, it is safe to say most folks driving Lexus do NOT read auto mags. Same thing would apply to those who might drive a FWD RL.

Right now, the RL's biggest competitor is the TL. There are some customers who are wondering why they should pay $50K MSRP on a RL versus $36K MSRP for a TL with Navigation System. A $40K RL might be more appealing to that set of customers. Besides, there is a niche of TL upgraders who are not pleased with the new TL who might be pursuaded by a $40K RL. Again, think of the FWD RL as being to the TL what the Toyota Avalon has traditionally been to the Camry.

Would you drive a FWD RL? Probably not. Would I drive a FWD RL? Definitely not. But a FWD RL would be a relatively painless way to drop the base MSRP of the RL and increase sales a little. It is a stopgap measure, but possibly a necessary one.

jhr3uva90

I don't think Acura should do anything about the torque steer problem. A person who doesn't care about FWD vs. RWD or AWD probably doesn't know or care about torque steer. If that person wants to avoid torque steer, then s/he can get the SH-AWD RL, hopefully at a $46K to $48K MSRP.

Precision Crafted

Another thing to look at is that the TL is due for a MMC. Historically this has ment an increase in equipment along with some visual changes. Usually there is a HP increase along the way.

For HP I hope Acura wouldn't bring the TL to 270 hp (actual this time) as it would be stupid. Granted the car would be quicker then it is now but I'm thinking of the 270 hp advertisement from a marketing stand point. If Acura does better then 270 then what, 280? That would be 10 less then the RL. Torque would increase but be less then the RL's. So both the TL and a possible FWD RL would compete even more.

Next let's look at equipment. What can the TL add??? OnStar with Navi models? That's all I can think of. I'd like to see a rear window sunshade (but that may be dropped on the decontinted RL). A 8 way power passanger seat (would need to be added to the RL as well). Keyless Access (already an RL feature), power steering colum (on the RL), updated Navi (on the RL), and it would be nice to see ventilated seats (not on US RL's).

Depending on what Acura decides to add to the TLand what they decide to take away from the RL, these two will over lap big time. The RL's biggest feature is the SH-AWD.

I do see the two Toyota's over laping as other's have pointed out but the Avalon has some things such as space that still separates it from the Camry. The new Camry only grew in wheel base length and nothing else. I don't think the top selling Camry has ever been the XLE V6 that is fully loaded. Those that want a fully loaded Avalon V6 with Auto wipers and such want such a car because a Camry is too "down market" but a Lexus is too ostentatious.

jhr3uva90

I have a feeling that the TL update will be mostly cosmetic. The previous TL's update was more extensive because: 1) there was already a CL Type S, so it was easy to create a TL Type S and 2) TL sales were starting to slip a little. Since the current TLs sales are increasing instead of decreasing I don't think there will be that many changes beneath the surface.

The RL, on the other hand, might get a mid-cycle refresh early and it could be extensive. . .

Precision Crafted

You could be right. However, if Acura has any sense they will look to BMW as an example or even it's own MDX.

One of the ways to keep customers coming in for the first time or to trade up is by making changes. Cosmetic changes may not be enough. The TL faces the current IS. A good car and fun to drive. Yes we may gripe about the lack of head or leg room. My not like the use of wood trim and may hate the nanny that interfers with the performance fun but in the end it is bloody fast and handles well. The 3 seriers is even better the the IS and let not forget the new Infiniti G35 (I guess it will have a 3.5 VQ motor) is coming.

A fresh look for the TL is nice and all but all three above offer the perspective driver more by way of using standard or optional smart key access, 6 speed autos, available sport packages (from the factory and not the over priced A-Spec type of stuff) and some other optional features.

Yes I know the TL has many things standard instead of optional like the others but the others do give you the choice. Head light washers or no head light washers...that is the question.

psteng19

The RL has more shortcomings than just advertising.
It's been discussed to death, but here are some (in no particular order):

1. Price
2. Not able to customize options
3. Brand image
4. Pedestrian looks
5. Same platform as Accord (FWD bias)
6. Tough competition (5, GS, M, E, A6)
7. Similar in size and dimensions as TL, which costs a lot less
8. Lack of V8
9. Advertising

jhr3uva90

1. I really hope they drop MSRP immediately!
2. Being able to customize options might make it hard to drastically drop MSRP immediately.
3. I agree; Acura has a LONG way to go to build the brand image. Killing the RSX will help. Product placements and sponsorships will also help.
4. Make A-spec standard.
5. Can't do too much about that. Besides, I don't think the masses really care. Look at how the Camry-based Lexus ES and Lexus RX sell (RX is probably the most popular luxury vehicle in the U.S.).
6. VERY tough competition. The Infiniti M is an amazing car. On the other hand, the Lexus GS is pretty mediocre in this class, yet is outsells the M by a large margin.
7. Having an optional FWD version could cut down the price differential and appeal to those folks who were alienated by the younger styling of the new TL.
8. Amen!
9. I think they are working on that. Acura just needs to pick their advertising wisely.

I really hope someone from Acura is reading these forums!

psteng19

It's very tough indeed. All the cars in this segment have been redesigned within the past 2 years.

The GS has been outselling the M by about 500 since introduction, but this past January, the M was only ~100 units behind.
Not bad for Infiniti which has much less presitge and a less extensive dealership network than Lexus.

psteng19

True, but the ES and RX are entry level luxury cars based on the FWD Camry.
The MDX, TSX/TL, which are FWD and Accord based are doing just as well.
Apparently entry level luxury cars can get away with being FWD based sedans.

The RL is in the mid-sized 'sport' luxury segment. Hard to associate sport sedan with a FWD family sedan.

jhr3uva90

Yes, but bear in mind that, until the 2005 model year, the Audi A6 was basically a Passat. In addition, it used to have AWD as an option and FWD as an option. Yet the pre-2005 A6 sold pretty well.

I really think the general drivers in this segment are going with brand name. BMW drivers are going to be loyal to the 5 Series, regardless of how far it strays from glory. Status whores are going to go with the E-class Benz. Reliability-conscoius status whores are going to go Lexus GS. The rebels are going to go Infiniti, and the traditional Audi drivers are going to stick with Audi. Who's going to stick with the RL, RSX drivers?

Alin10123

I think if you simply lower the price of the RL, it may not make a huge difference. Think about it... the RL is already priced much lower than the competition for the features that it has. The only difference it the V8 that the others have. I think if the RL had more power... it would sell like hotcakes. There are so many things that the RL has that the other sedans dont have. But it only lacks in the HP dept. I've driven one as a loaner once and it was nice. But lacked the getup and go that the other competition had. I once owned a 99 BMW 540. It was much more than the RL in terms of price, i didn't get half ot the features that the RL had... BUT... it had much much much more getup and go and halfway decent gas mileage for a V8 engine. They could even make the V8 an option for the ones that prefer the V8.

The pricing is already low enough, any lower and it wont be considered in the same class.

ilas

I agree. Further, simply lowering the price of the current package will greatly disillusion those current owners who bought the car close to MSRP (there are thousands of these people, even though good deals can be had now). Plus, in some markets, I have heard that the RL is not so heavily discounted. Lowering the price will absolutely kill resale values of 05 and 06 models, and many people think about that when deciding to replace their car. Lowering the price without downgrading equipment means Acura could potentially lose many many customers for future cars who were well-healed enough and loyal to the brand to have bought 06 and 05 RLs. In terms of long run customer retention, I think Acura must be very careful here.

jhr3uva90

Oddly enough, V8 versions of the A6 and the Infiniti M constitute about 10% of sales. Considering that Acura sold just under 800 RLs in January, would it be worth it to create a V8 engine to sell 80 cars a month? Besides, the dealers are the ones complaining that the RL costs too much (personally I think they just don't know how to sell an expensive car), so a cheaper RL would make them happy.

albeik

Acura dealers have been complaining that the brand’s flagship RL sedan is a slow seller because of its high price tag and lack of a V8 engine. AutoWeek reports that an RL goes for about $50K, and despite being laden with all manner of technological trinkets it just can’t compete with similar sedans packing the grunt of a V8 for the same price.

Apparently corporate has heard their cries and has decided that the solution is not adding a V8 engine to RL's option list, but rather offering a decontented version of the sedan at a lower price. Acura’s dealer council has officially made the recommendation for the decontented model and is hoping for a model that goes in the low to mid-$40K range.

Some question whether Acura has a strong enough brand image to price a vehicle near $50K, which we think is hogwash. There’s nothing wrong with the idea of a $50K Acura in this segment that a proper V8 wouldn’t fix. Sure, there are vehicles at or above that price point that come standard with a smaller cylinder count, but they’re not luxury sedans.

Sources:
http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dl...024/LATESTNEWS
http://www.autoblog.com/2006/02/22/a...-rl-needs-help

bkw

This has been discussed extensively before. What people don't realize is that theyre trying to compare the RL to the V8 equipped competition and thus of course it'll lose! But if you compare apples to apples (ie- v6 awd luxury sedans), then the RL is in it's element and fairs rather nicely.

IMO, Acura should offer a premium vehicle, but not based on the current RL. It should be physically longer, with a longer wheelbase with the wheels pressed out to the ends and equipped with a V8. Price? $55k.

That way they can drop the price of the RL to $45k. Then Acura will have the TL Navi @ $35k, RL @ $45k, and their new larger car at $55k.

Speaking of V8 Honda motors, wouldnt it be nice if they could mate two F20C's (F22C) into one motor? That'd be sweet!

iNteGraz92

i don't know why this is so hard for so many people to understand.

vp911

Merging with existing thread

jhr3uva90

The original article was presented the dealers' perspective and how they want a cheaper RL. Earlier I suggested that Acura present a FWD RL option to the dealerships so they can have a cheaper RL. But let's consider another option: fuck the dealers.

Instead of offering a cheaper RL, I wonder what would happen if the US Acura RL had every feature the JDM Honda Legend has including ventilated seats and a night vision system. And I wonder if Acura offered all of these features, plus 18-inch rims, for the current MSRP? What if a slightly-toned down version of A-spec was standard equipment? The dealers would howl, but how would the automotive press and the customers take to it?

ilas

I think that many people here "flagship" and think this is the best Honda/Acura can do, and this is why they make fun of the car and trash it. It is really comical to read surfers assessments of the RL, especially at autospies (warning, don't go there, it's not worth it!).

Of course, Honda decided to make the RL compete with other non-flagship sedans. Honda knows the real competition is from the v6 luxury performance sedans and not the V8s. But this totally confuses people who want to judge whose flagship is best, and then define the companies according to that comparison.

jhr3uva90

Ironically, Acura doesn't even refer to the RL as a "flagship."

ilas

Indeed, it has been the automotive press that has labeled the RL as such.

msu79gt82

Amazing thread and comments. In my opinion the RL does NOT offer enough features for the money. I got to take a good hard look at the '06 RL last week with my MDX in to test a failed emissions test (gas cap - nothing wrong with the MDX by the way; inspection station had incorrect test equipment!!). The MSRP for the Tech Package was ~$54K and there was NO backup camera included I am sorry Acura I just do not get it.

My sales rep said they were very disappointed with RL sales, and are heavily discounting prices. Also sales for the MDX are dropping, and it too is being discounted heavily. They have high hopes the RDX will pick up sales on the lot. Also the redesigned MDX is due this fall.