TampaRLX-SH

I have to say I agree with much said here. I hope it is not a repost. And perhaps the lack of pure luxury branding, has clouded the RLs acceptance into its intended market? As others have said here, if the RL had an 'L' on the grille, it would likely be better accepted?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxQX8pmn8gE

VTEC Racer

I don't think an 'L' on the grill would have increased sales as much as Acura wanted them to be. If you look at the sales numbers for the particular car in the RL's class that DOES have an 'L' on the front grill, they aren't to hot either considering it was just updated. Yes, I am talking about the Lexus GS.

TampaRLX-SH

I agree, it would not likely meet Acura's projections. And yes, the GS and most luxury models in this segment are not performing to expectations (particularly the GS). But I cannot help believe the RL would be better recognized should the brand have been less ambigious to the consumer.

neuronbob

Nice find.

The last statement on the video pretty much says it all.

"When you're launching a brand, think like Lexus. Don't think Like Acura".

They raise the same points we do here.

dwboston

First mover advantage is huge in most industries. It's funny it only took Acura 9 years to squander it. Cheap 4 cylinder cars, rebadged Isuzu SUV's, and a crappy dealer experience go a long way to explaining how it happened.

The line in the video about not kowtowing to the dealers is prescient. The dealers clamored for the Base model 2007 RL - a lot of good that's done. Maybe the dealers should take care of their own houses first and upgrade their facilities and improve the customer experience before telling Honda and Acura which cars they should build.

Chas2

This is a great commentary on the state of Acura. I bought one of those 1987 Legends, thought it was great, but the tranny scared me after a few years, which is the only reason I sold it. Bought a 95 Legend. Loved it, still have it, though I think the tranny is still the weak link, that cranky 1-2 shift. Could not bring myself to buy a 1G RL, and for 8 years, I wondered where Acura was going, besides down. I had great hopes for the 2G RL, and I love it, but I do agree with all the comments on the Acura marketing strategy, or lack thereof.

Ken1997TL

Chas: To fix that 1-2 shift in your Legend, get the transmission mount checked. It tends to go on the C series engines.

jhr3uva90

Acura's projections were 15,000 units of the 2005 Acura RL (the 20,000 mark was a typo). Those are the only projections I know of. They sold something like 17K or 18K of that model year. The RL was NEVER meant to be a mainstream seller like the TL. That being said, I think the RL would sell better as a Lexus RL. Does that mean it would sell like a TL or a BMW 5 Series? No!

By the way, the car industry in general is going down right now and mid-size luxury sedans in particular. The Audi A6 and the Lexus GS have seen big declines along with the RL.

And regarding first mover advantage, it doesn't always work. Was Ford the first car company? Was GM? First mover is not always an advantage. Ask folks in the computer industry about that.

jhr3uva90

I agree with most of the video, however. Acura made lots of mistakes, including kowtowing to the dealerships. I think they acquiesced again when they introduced a stripped down RL for the 2007 model year. However, I do think Acura is slowly finding their way and killing the Integra/RSX is a move in the right direction.

kappa821

i have to agree with most of that video that acura has killed its luxury brand name by having that piece of shit integra out for so many years.........its good that its compared with honda for the reliability but i feel like its compared to honda to much which also hurts.... i feel like when u think of lexus you dont think of toyota but when you think of acura you think honda right away...either way i love my TL and for the price wouldnt trade it for anything

personally i feel like the sticker price of the RL drives a lot of people away when you compare to the infiniti M or lexus GS for 50 i would rather have those two cars for the sticker price... but thats not the case though b/c you can get a fully loaded for RL for less than 50 so i fee like most people dont know that so right away they wont even look at the RL.

VOdoc

Great little marketing tutorial. First-year MBA students want their target market to be "everybody"--then they learn about segmenting, targeting and positioning. Ironically, pursuing fewer potential customers more ardently and with a more compelling value proposition sells much better, and at higher prices, than the "shotgun" approach.

Acura actually made two mistakes. Ries talks about the first one. The second one has been mentioned here before: when the execs realized that "Legend" resonated more with consumers than "Acura", they killed the golden goose by naming it the RL.

What they should have done was kill the Integra, use advertising to strongly link "Acura + Legend" in people's minds, and use that positive association to drive the Acura brand into its own.

Acura should position itself as a fun-to-drive brand that is more high-tech than than Lexus, safer than Volvo, cooler than BMW, more cost-effective than Mercedes and more reliable than Audi. (Also better-looking than Infiniti. )

Mokos23

You should've put this on the car talk section in off topic, well I'll start a thread on this in offtopic and see what others say.

dwboston

I didn't intend to imply that first mover advantage is a lifetime pass to dominance in a company's market, only that it gives a headstart and it didn't take Acura very long to squander it.

neuronbob

Actually, this is perfect here because the RL is the poster child for Acura's poor marketing. This continues a conversation we've been having the last few months over why the RL isn't selling.

Well, if Acura let US run the marketing....

Rob144

I don't think Honda realized what a golden egg it had laid when it first established Acura.

I migrated from a Honda Prelude to a 1st Gen Legend, then a 2nd Gen Legend. If I'm typical, then Honda treated Acura like GM used to treat its divisions: you started in a Chevy, went to Pontiac, Olds, Buick, and Cadillac was the pinnacle.

Lexus stepped in and changed the game by going directly after the prestige brands. I don't think Honda positioned Acura the same way. They certainly didn't tailor the dealer/ownership experience like Lexus did, and their product mix had (and has) overlap with the Honda line.

When I first got my Legend (and people didn't know what it was back then) I simply described it as a giant Honda. Too bad that once the car had a name for itself, they dropped it force people to say "Acura".

I may as well give the Acura part number for the car for all the recognition it gets. However, when I say the RL replaced the Legend, people go "ahhh".

Brand equity is a terrible thing to waste. (See Taurus, Ford).

The shame is that Acura has a pretty decent product line for the most part.

Rob144

Chas2

Thanks, been there, done that, but i will check it again, since it has been a few years.

TampaRLX-SH

You raise some valid points Rob. Acura has not been a step up brand for Honda as much as Lexus is a step up brand for Toyota, especially in the car models.

In Toyo/Lex there is virtually no overlap in the brand models. A loaded Avalon crosses into ES territory, but slightly. Whereas Honda / Acura had too much overlap in models. A loaded Civic overlapped with the RSX. A loaded Accord bridges both TSX and TL territory. Only the RL stood above in the model lineup, but with all the overlaps, can consumers take the Acura brand seriously as a step ABOVE Honda? How could the RL be taken seriously as THAT much better than other Honda / Acura models?

Acura is recognizing the need to step higher in the premium segment. The RSX retirement was a start, but the TSX as fine as it is, may still be too low priced / featured to rise up to a G or IS as it's entry model. The TL is more on par as the entry of a luxury brand. And th RL may be more the mid level model and a new flagship to hit the 50K+ segement.

Problem is: this market segement is not selling well lately, and Acura already has put itself into identity crisis. Consumers will likely not take it seriously as a luxury brand, with or without the technology angle.

jhr3uva90

Oftentimes, the first mover does not squander the advantage, bigger companies TAKE the first mover's advantage. Larger companies see that there is a market, so they take it from the first mover. Toyota did that to Honda with Lexus, Microsoft did that to Netscape with IE, etc.

Rob144

Also, a two-step replacement of the transmission fluid can help. I.e., replace fluid. Drive 500 miles, replace again. This ensures a pretty thorough turnover to the new stuff.

One thing I found when manually shifting 1-2 in the Legend, is that if you press the accelerator down while doing so, the shift is less severe. This can also work to mitigate the harshness in full auto mode.

And to get back on topic, good thing the RL shifts pretty smoothly!

Rob144

Rob144

The mid-luxury segment is pretty dry these days, though certainly not for lack of offerings (M, GS, RL, ES if you push it). People could simply be more value-conscious - or willing to stretch their budget for the top-line cars leaving the middle alone.

It looks like Acura is more interested in SUVs these days, anyway. The RDX and MDX are all-new, while the TL got a makeover that will give it an extra year or two in the model cycle. The RL soldiers along, along with the TSX (which is a Euro Accord).

I'm reminded how long it took Acura to uniquely label the guts of their cars. Even my 1995 Legend had HONDA written on the valve covers.

Knowledgable auto buyers can see a TSX and think Accord; or a Lexus ES and think Camry. Or Audi and think VW. I think that extends to the brand. People thus think Honda when they see Acura, and Toyota when they see Lexus. [Somehow, Infiniti seems to escape Nissan.]

Look at a BMW or M-B and you don't think about shared platforms with other brands (though Mini benefits from BMW). I'm not sure where I'm going with this, but it plays into managing the brand. Lexus overcame the Toyota link, in part, by stressing the dealer/owner experience and care. Acura needs to do the same. It can work to elevate the brand.

Rob144

kirbyflorida

Pretty EASY for the person in the video to look back-ward and state his opinion.
I do not agree with most of what he said, this could be discussed for hours.

Pure and simple, the RL is a wonderful car that MOST people have no idea about.
I believe Acura should launch a major campaign to get people in to test drive their cars, when people test drive with good sales people sales will go up substantially.
There are many other things to do as others have stated, nice showrooms, better treatment, etc.

Chas2

Totally agreed. A co worker and I were circling the garage in opposite directions during a recent snow storm looking for a space and I passed her twice.

She later said to me she saw the car once and said to herself, damn, that's a nice car. Then she said to herself on the second pass, damn, that's an Acura, I didn't know Acura made a good looking car like that. Then she recognized me behind the wheel and waved.

This woman is not very technical at all, and does not watch a lot of TV.

JAB00

I agree with most. The biggest impediment to a dashing success for Acura is marketing. The products are on par with the competition but the marketing sucks. Just look at the Lexus or Infinity commercials on tv, they're very stylish and connote luxury. If Acura stepped up it's marketing then more potential buyers would take test drives and be wowed.

neuronbob

Hmmmm.....how about "Taste of Acura"? Much like what Lexus does around the country?

Rob144

Acura needs to buy their way onto The Apprentice (like Lexus did). Maybe the go-carts would have made more sense.....

From the sound of it, Acura just doesn't have the same charter or resources as Toyota gave Lexus. Darn bean counters. Sometimes the lack of a clear mission statement can be a bad thing.

Remember when Mazda was also going to enter luxe-brand game? They were going to use the Millenia under the name "Amati" or something like that. They never did, but the Millenia came out as a Mazda. Looking back, that was a car a bit ahead of its time. I think they even set up a special factory for it.

Going (and staying) upmarket is not an easy game to play. Acura started it, but Lexus clearly refined and extended it.

Rob144

static808

Acura also talks about being global, yeah right.

I just got back from Singapore, which is probably the richest city/state in the world. Every car maker has a presence. I saw everything from BMW 730i and Mercedes S350 to Audi, Lexus, etc.. The most cars seen were BMW/Lexus. I mean every corner had a GS or LS. A side note, the Lexus RX350 = Toyota Harrier, funny...but back to Acura.

I saw not one Honda Legend...nada. I saw more Audi a4/a6/a8 than a single Honda Legend. Not sure if they export to Singapore but why not. Lexus/BMW/Mercedes are what the middle / upper class drive there. Audi even has an A6 on display in the Airport.

The RL showed that a great car with no marketing gets you 400 sales/month. Good luck guys and spend a few dollars and grow a car line....Sorry for the vent, just seeing the video makes me wonder if Acura is going to just be a TSX/TL/MDX car line.

kirbyflorida

That video sucks, again , making your case looking backward.

dwboston

With all due respect, the video is a case study. It's supposed to be backward looking. How would one do a forward looking case study and draw any conclusions?

kirbyflorida

I do not agree with his analysis, I do not see any good recommendations from his "study".
I spent 25 years working for a top marketing company and I think this guys "study" is poor.
Where is his discussion about the first lousy small cheap Lexus, some 250 model as I recall, junk. What about the initial Infiniti ads with the Q45, no car in the ads, killed Infiniti, again this is a large matter than would need lots of discussion, his 5 minutes were a joke, IMO.

Trackruner228

iTrader: (1)

Ok I already said this in car talk but here i go. While hes right about the fact that acura needs to be more upscale yeah hes probably right. As far as acura doing bad? I dont get why everyone is saying that. Read the 07 Consumers reports on page 16 they rate the car companys overall. Guess which brand has 100% of there products recommended? Honda. Last I heard there still making a profit. Chrysler ford and GM are all loosing tons of money. So they cant be doing THAT bad.

As far as not may people by acuras you guys should all come to charlotte. On average I see at least 1 TL, TSX, and MDX a day. Especially the TLs they are all over the place. I also think its because here acura is known for having really good service but still thats saying something how common they are.

I think now that the RSX is gone and there cheapest car is 28k they are going to see more as a higher brand. Once that happens I think more people will see the RL for what it really is which is a really good car.

jhr3uva90

Also, bear in mind that Acura was selling more cars than ever before up until this year. Their sales had been increasing steadily. Let's not confuse market share with revenues. More importantly, let's not confuse market share with profit. It is more profitable for Acura to sell fewer re-badged Honda Accords (Acura TSX) than to develop and sell more RWD cars, even if the RWD cars would give Acura a more upscale image.

static808

The video was just point of view.

Acura does sell alot of cars compared to Infiniti and is up there in sales volume against Lexus. My comments are around the fact that Honda views this brand as an afterthought.

At least Toyota and Nissan (to a recent extent) have seriously looked at branding their luxury nameplates.

The success of the 04 TL model and the MDX line has allowed Honda to keep Acura a status quo nameplate.

Its all about Honda's commitment. Strategically, Acura is viewed as an afterthought to Honda. A nice to have. Honda's CEO has only recently looked to grow the Acura brand.

Lexus is strategic to Toyota. The commitment to have the Lexus brand in most countries has proven that point.

I enjoy driving my RL. Am I going to sell my RL, no. Just makes me wonder if Honda is serious about this brand...nothing else.

jhr3uva90

I agree, Acura has seemed like an afterthought to Honda Motor Corporation (HMC) in Japan. If they were REALLY serious about Acura, HMC would take Acura out from under American Honda Corp. and put it under HMC. Also, if HMC was serious about Acura, they would develop a RWD platform just for the brand instead of tweaking the Global Mid-sized Platform to death.

Ry4an

I spent a few days in Singapore recently too, and also watched for a Legend without ever seeing one. There were some Pilots and a few Accords, but never a Legend.

It's all the more striking because every car there looks brand new owing to the government policy of buying your car back for a huge (> 50%) of your original purchase price after a few years. The cars are re-sold in other counties and singapore is filled with nothing but shiny new cars. They pretty much take depreciation out of the picture entirely, and certainly make it same across all makes. Of course, your permit to purchase a car can cost upwards of $25,000 US.

For a peek at the bizarro car market in singapore check out http://www.aas.com.sg/features/archive/f0404a.htm

Mokos23

All interesting points here

kappa821

doesnt really belong here since i have a tl but i feel like its on the same page

i am on the third date with this girl each time i have driven. so we are walking back to my car and i say something regarding my car, cant remember what i said. stupid girl says in a stupid voice" its a nice car but yea what kind of car is that" (i immediately leave her right there j/k)im thinking what do u mean what kind of car is that its a sick car thats what it is....i just wanted to respond to that and say go enjoy ur ugly ass bmw 325 xi ... this is why acura is where it is b/c people just look at bmws and lexus dont understand the value out of an acura. which i kind of like b/c i see enough tl's on the road

i hate seeing ghetto rigged acura rsx and integras brings the acura name down every time i see one

TampaRLX-SH

I think the majority of people in this forum recognize the RL for the fine automobile it is, with or without Acura attracting us to the product. But as we all have been in a dialog as to why the RL is not better recognized, I think it is twofold. One being Acura's identity as a premium brand and second more specifically how Acura markets the RL (or lack of marketing).

This video clip speaks to how Acura's identity has reached (decayed) this point. MANY of us have posted views as to how Acura can do better. Although this video has talking points for all Acura models, I posted it in this forum (2nd Gen RL) specifically as I felt it spoke much to why the RL is not respected in the market as a luxury vehicle. In many ways the RLs enigma is rooted in Acura's identity as "maybe, maybe not" a luxury brand.

I hope Acura listens to our free advice. It appears most RL owners had to do the legwork themselves to get the RL on the radar when car shopping. It does not appear the marketing efforts are so ambitious.

I'm leaving for South America on Sunday. I will be on the watch for Legends.

neuronbob

I know Acura patrols these boards, so I'm sure they're trying to figure out how to reach techies like us who tend to post.

Travel safely!