hemants

RL in Canada : $69.5k

M35 Base : $54k
M35X Base : $58

M45 Base : 64.4k
M45 Fully Loaded : $71.8k

That probably puts the M35X loaded at $62-$64k.

It will be interesting to see if this puts pressure on RL sales. I'm guessing it will.

Rob L

Um, I dont think those fully loaded prices are correct. Seeing as adding all options to the U.S. M increases the price by over 10 grand I have a hard time believing fully loaded here only adds a 4-6k premium unless of course the "base" Ms here come almost loaded which I highly doubt.

If by chance this pricing is somehow correct then Infiniti will sell a bundle of these here and obviously it will have a big impact on RL sales...also, is will most likely all but have killed the sales of the Q45 which is 88 grand here.

Rob L

Hmm...I saw the article about base prices and stuff that comes standard in every M. This may be true. Wow, that is impressive and this thing should sell VERY well here.

The GS300 AWD will start at 67 grand so it is right there in pricing and will be mroe than the RL I'm sure when it gets some of the options.

Hmm, that is crazy about the M price...like really crazy considering (again if loaded is low 60s) the rest of the segment is in the 70k+ grand range for V6 models

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

There is no way a luxury level car could undercut the competition by that much without sacrificing something. My guess would be build quality and reliability, which seems to be the Achilles heel of Nissan.

DownUnder

Infiniti always have had high reliability.

dseag2

Infiniti uses a version of the FM (front midship) platform in all of its cars from the 350Z to the FX to the M. They also use a version of their VQ engine in just about every model. That helps keep costs down. In driving my FX, I can definitely tell where they cut costs (interior materials) but all the preliminary reviews of the M indicate they didn't scrimp this time around. It looks like it will be a great car, although I don't think the exterior styling is any more original than the RL's. The interior looks nice.

My personal feeling is that the M will sell well among "enthusiasts" who realize it is a driver's car or among more value-conscious buyers; and the GS will sell well among the masses because of the Lexus brand. The RX has always outsold the FX, even though the FX is more fun to drive and has a lower MSRP for similar equipment. The RX is beautifully finished and has the Lexus cache. I'm sure the GS will be the same. Both will probably cannibalize RL sales, but the RL should still prove to be a decent value as an all-around package.

Time will tell.

Rob L

I pretty much agree with that.

I do hope the M sells well because it is a shame when good products don't sell that well simply because of the name and the assumption that the popular product must be better. IE in this case that the BMW 5 series has to be better than the M simply because it is a BMW.

Naturally once both these sedans hit the market and the newness of the RL wears off I expect the RL to be low in sales compared to the competition which is a shame because it is a geat car. Oh well, I am happy with it.

Senneca01

Here is some more info for you guys about Infiniti M Canada pricing right from the dealer:

A loaded M35x is going to cost $65,800 while a loaded M45 Sport is going to be only about $2k more than an RL. These cars look like they are going to be an amazing value.

Model Code------Description--------------------------------------------Retail ($CDN)
A4TG76----------M35, LUXURY----------------------------------------------$54,800
A4TG76----------M35, LUXURY, TECH PKG--------------------------------$61,300
A4XG76----------M35x, LUXURY--------------------------------------------$55,300
A4XG76----------M35x, LUXURY, ENTERTAIN PKG-----------------------$60,500
A4XG76----------M35x, LUXURY, ENTERTAIN PKG, PREM PKG---------$65,800
A4TV76----------M45, LUXURY----------------------------------------------$64,400
A4TV76----------M45, LUXURY, ULTRA PREM PKG-----------------------$70,600
A4TV76----------M45, SPORT, ULTRA PREM PKG-------------------------$71,800

fifty_rocks

Interesting thread... I was thinking of buying an RL, but now I'm going to wait until I get a chance to drive the M45 and the new GS V8....

Senneca01

2006 Lexus GS Base Prices (CDN)

Lexus GS300-$64,300
Lexus GS300 AWD-$66,700
Lexus GS430-$74,700

A loaded GS430 with Premium Package ($13,300 CDN) is going to cost $88,000 CDN. That is insane! Even a fully optioned GS300 AWD with Premium Package is $77,000 CDN.

phile

I do think they cut corners in some spots.

For example, look at the metal plate at the bottom of the entrance for rear passengers...it's blank...in the front, it says Infiniti.



In the RL, it's front and rear; and mind you this is standard fare for luxury cars, it's not special to the RL.



The door pockets are not hinged, therefore, they do not open for additional storage. Again, a feature like this has become industry standard for this class. And quite frankly if you compare the two door interiors, the RL just looks a lot more classy whereas the Infiniti is basically one molded piece with additional wood and leather trimming attached.



I'm definitely not saying the RL has every feature one can think of, but in terms of Infiniti offering the M at a substantially lower cost than anything in its class, when you start looking at the details, you do notice a few items missing.

DownUnder

Those thing that you mention isn't really cost cutting rather more like design preferences which is subjective. To me cost cutting are things like only having four way powered passenger seat or using small 17" wheels.

Senneca01

In the Infiniti, the front sill plates are illuminated underneath like a Mercedes-Benz when the doors are opened. Does this happen in the RL? I can't remember, I havn't seen a picture of what the sill plates look like. IIRC, the one piece molded doors and dash parts have less chance of rattles and creaks, something that has been a problem with the new TL.

phile

I believe it does illuminate. Rattling has nothing to do with the individual parts in this particular case... in fact, those things are visual illusions; in reality, they're just additional add ons to a one piece design. If they were to come lose from heavy door slammings, they'll more likely to pop off then remain in place and cause rattles. The difference between the RL and the M is that Acura went ahead and added those things anyway, to give it a more upscale look whereas Infiniti did not go the extra step.

phile

But you have to view my statement in regard to the context. I was responding to a post about interior...and as such, my evaluation of what is cost cutting applies strictly to the domain of interior trimmings and design, not electronic features and or accessories.

phile

Additionally, most of the complaints about rattles have been pinpointed to the dash, more specifically, loose components below the dash, not the additional trimmings at the surface. If that were the case, I don't think anyone would even bother using wood veneer as they too are nothing more than thin pieces of wood literally glued to the surface of a dashboard.

jrock65

This is true, but Honda/Acura does basically the same thing. The Accord, TSX, TL, and RL all share the Honda Global Midsize Platform. The Honda V6 is the basically the same engine also in all the cars that use the V6, whether in 3.0L or 3.5L. Nissan does the same thing with their 3.5L/4.0L VQ V6 engine.

It seems that the price gap between the M and the RL for comparably equipped models is larger in Canada than in the U.S. Wonder why that is the case.

Rob L

I still want to know about the seat adjustment in the M. The driver is 10 way and I think that takes lumbar into account. The passenger is 6 and if it has lumbar then it is just a 4 way seat as well.



I am damn impressed by this M pricing here in Canuckland. I was expecting it to be priced basically the same as the RL but it isn't and that is impressive. I would say that here in Canada the new M seems to be the new leader in overall bang for the buck. Impressive.


jrock,

probably is because the M is priced more like what the current exchange rates indicate rather than the RL and other luxury cars that cost more here. Basically it seems they priced the M to be competitive to the U.S. price taking the exchange rate into account instead of just price compared to what the market is offering lke other companies do here in Canada.

CDN pricing may not actually rely on U.S. pricing (many say the CDN prices for cars are not influecned by U.S. prices but I think they are) but it sure seems Infiniti has taken the U.S price/exchange into account for this car.

I am very curious to see this car in person and sit in it....assuming it has the quality that I expect it to have wiht materials then I really hope it sells in huge numbers. It'd be a damn shame if it didn't.

Rob L

Oh and the GS pricing is basically around what I was expecting.

I figured the M35x with similar equipment to the RL would be priced at 70, and the GS300 AWD with that equipment priced in mid 70s.

It will be great to hear Canadians go on how the RL is overpriced simply because Infitinit is thousands less than the whole competititon. These same people will obviously ignore the whole segment that costs more than the RL and will act like the M pricing is common.

dseag2

OMG! Then Lexus cut corners on the '04 GS430 that has 17" wheels. And they cut corners on my '03 GS300 Sportdesign that had an MSRP of $46k and came w/ 16" wheels! Lexus must be turning into Hyundai!

dseag2

He was just being a troll. Don't take it too seriously.

dseag2

Could it have something to do with supply/demand? What is the planned production for the M? Acura's is pretty limited (I believe 20,000) for the RL. Just a guess.

DownUnder

Quote:

Originally Posted by dseag2

OMG! Then Lexus cut corners on the '04 GS430 that has 17" wheels. And they cut corners on my '03 GS300 Sportdesign that had an MSRP of $46k and came w/ 16" wheels! Lexus must be turning into Hyundai!

I know, the size of the wheels was a bad example I used for describing cost cutting. But most new luxury cars this year and the next are now offering 18" and even 19" wheels, while Acura thinks 17" wheels is sufficient for it's flagship.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dseag2

He was just being a troll. Don't take it too seriously.

So a person that has a different opinion on somthing is considered a troll huh.

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

While I am quite familiar with that fact, Carlos Ghosn's meddling with the supply process has brought some interesting numbers to the table, so I'm curious how using the lowest bidder will affect Infiniti in the long term. Regardless, Infiniti has been sacrificing in a few areas in order to make up for the cost cutting. That will slowly disappear with time as things settle in, but until then, we can only sit back and watch.

phile

Wait a minute, you're not playing fair here. The things I mentioned that are common across luxury cars in this class (which I was emphasizing) but are lacking in the Infiniti, you counter that they're design preferences, and not a result of cost cutting. But yet you use the same line of reasoning for cost cutting in the RL's case - that the competition offers 18" and 19" wheels, RL does not, and thus it is a cost cutting move...

jrock65

Acura said something like 20,000 for the US market, dunno for Canada. I don't think it's a supply issue; both companies have the capacity to increase supply if the demand requires it.

Maybe Acura has more brand cachet in Canada.

RobL,

I'm pretty sure the 10/6 seats in the M include lumbar. So here comes my little rant with both the RL and the M:

Lack of height adjustment on the passenger seat.

It's little things like this that give Infiniti and Acura their "lower-level" luxury reputation. The 5, E, A6, and GS all let you do this, which could make a big difference between a comfortable and an uncomfortable trip. Most buyers in this class have spouses.

The RL and M have all the tech gizmos, but people will notice lack of height adjustment. They'll say, "What's wrong with this "luxury" car? I can't adjust the passenger seat up and down. Even the ES330 has that function. Heck, even my 1994 ES300 had it."

End of rant.

Senneca01

If you are under the assumption that Nissan and Infiniti quality and reliability are one and the same, your assumption is completely untrue. After the 1st year of ownership, Infiniti is on top, more reliable than even Lexus, and past Acura.

Check out this PDF:

http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/consumerreports.pdf

DownUnder

The picture of the rear blank aluminum doorsill is a pre-production M, so we won’t know for sure until we see an actual production M either in person or pics online posted by owners. But lets say if it doesn’t come with the “Infiniti” logo on the aluminum plate on the rear on the production model, do you think they are saving any money by not stamping it?



Now onto the other things that you claim is “cost cutting” like not having hinged door pockets that you stated in your previous post:

Not every luxury car has hinged door pockets for example the BMW 7-series, Lexus GS, Jaguar S-type and XJ8, Mercedes S-class, CLS, E-class and others do NOT have hinged door pockets. Like I said before that is not cost cutting it’s a design preference and it is NOT an industry standard as you see there are many higher priced luxury cars that don’t use hinged door pockets. Some people might prefer hinged door pockets like yourself, others don’t or don’t even care really like myself.

DownUnder

According to these specs, the Infiniti M's passanger seat appears to have height adjustments, cause it didn't list anything about having power lumbar. Whereas the driver's seat says it's 10-way powered with power lumbar support.

Both the RL and M should have at least 10-way powered front seats with lumbar support on both seats also.

Rob L

Hmm, I am perfectly fine with the RL having 17" wheels.

Also, many luxury cars come with 17" standard and 18" as an option. You can get the 18" package as an option from Acura.




jrock,

yeah I agree both cars should have at least 8 way passenger seats and it is the one cheesy thing I find about the RL. However, it is not a big deal to me other than being a principality thing since I am driving the car 99% of the time and well, the passenger seat is fixed at an OK height for me. I still do not know why they didnt add height adjustment to the seat. It is as if they forgot all about it because there is no way it costs much to do.


Optimal (without going crazy like those super adjustable seats you can get on MB and BMW) would be 14 way...the extra adjustments to the 10 way would be power headrest, and thigh seat extension.

jrock65

I dunno then. I though I read somewhere that it was 6 way with power lumbar. Guess we won't know for sure until someone goes to the dealer and actually tests the thing.

So either the seat has power height adjustment (but not separate front and rear height adjustment like all the other cars) and no lumbar, or has lumbar but no height adjustment. I guess I'd take the former scenario.

phile

Of course. You're still neglecting that the front plates have Infiniti stamped on them. Why then spare the back?


And there are others that do - Audi A6, A8, Infiniti Q45, Lexus LS 430. And the Mercedes don't need hinged door pockets because if you looked at them (which I'm sure you did to come up with that list) you'd see that they're wide enough in their stationary position and the walls aren't tall enough to include a hinge feature (that would qualify as a design preference). The Infiniti M's door pockets are not designed like the Mercedes' door pockets...they are like the RL's, except they lack the opening/closing feature to access/keep things in place. And most of those cars you've mentioned are either halfway through their life cycles or are ready to be replaced. The new GS, for example, has the hinged door maps. Don't be surprised to see such a small detail become standardized across the luxury market in the upcoming years.

DownUnder

Like I said before, do you think that they're saving money by not stamping the rear sill plate? If so is that classified as cost cutting? BTW the Mercedes E-class' stainless steel rear sill plates are blank also, do you think they're cost cutting too?


Half of the luxury cars have hinged door pocket others do not so what is there to argue about. BTW, most Mercedes fixed door pockets are shallow and do not hold the maps in well. The M on the other hand appears to be deep enough so that it can hold a map in place, which is their intended use.


Only the Lexus GS and S-class is going to be redesigned, MOST of the cars I mentioned still have plenty of years left until they receive a major redesign.

Quote:

Originally Posted by phile

The new GS, for example, has the hinged door maps. Don't be surprised to see such a small detail become standardized across the luxury market in the upcoming years.

Do you have some sort of fetish with hinged door pockets? You make it sound like hinged door pockets is the next big revolution of the automotive world, lol. When I’m driving the last thing I’ll be thinking about is a door pocket.

Rob L

i like hinged door pockets.

dseag2

My FX35 has hinged door pockets, and Infiniti hardly went "all out" in spending on the interior of that vehicle, so I don't think it was a money-saving decision on their part. Also, it has Infiniti stamped on the front doorsills but not on the back because there is NO ROOM to spell out "INFINITI" on the back ones. It does have a couple of lines running through it, so it isn't completely devoid of decoration. Honestly, after over 2 months of ownership I never even noticed the name wasn't there. I can't believe I actually went to check it out after reading this thread!

phile

I already told you...YES. Why do you think it's not a cost cutting factor, when other cars can do it, is what you should be asking yourself.

Sure, they can hold a map in place, but with hinged map pockets, you can have more flexibility. That is where Acura took the extra step (and extra money) and Infiniti did not. And I mentioned the Infiniti Q45 because Infiniti obviously knows about this feature...the fact that they omitted it is without a doubt a cost cutting measure; hardly an attribution of the map pocket's design.

I never said they didn't; what I said was they were either halfway through their design cycles or getting redesigned soon. Most cars these days, in general, are redesigned every 4-6 years. If they're halfway through their cycle, they can be out on the market for only 2 years...I don't know when they're going to be redesigned, and neither do you...so at least that's a safe assumption on my part.

It is. And no, it's just an example that I brought up in response to someone else's opinion, which I happen to agree with, that Infiniti did cut corners on the new M35/45 in order to keep the price down. And as it happened, it was something that you picked up on in responding to me.

What I'm pointing out is that you are quick to say that the Acura made cost cutting decisions by pointing out the 17" wheels by comparing it to other cars with larger wheels (which I can also list cars whose standard wheels are of equal size in this class, BTW)...but when I say Infiniti cut costs by opting for such things as non-hinging map doors in comparison with other cars, you argue that it's a design cue when in fact Infiniti uses them on at least 2 of its other vehicles (Q45, FX35) just as well.

phile

I didn't check the specs for the FX, so maybe that it's true there is no room for that vehicle. But the RL has a wheelbase of 110.2 inches, the new M35 has a wheelbase of 114.2 inches. If Acura can manage to have Acura spelled out in the rear door sill, I don't see why Infiniti would find much more difficulty doing so with only 3 more letters and an extra 4 inches in its wheelbase. And I also looked at the photos...the wheelbase of the M, because it is RWD, gives up a few of that space to the area front of the front door hinges, so it's not usable. So let's just say that that space is indeed 4 inches (which I doubt), and its wheelbase is thus the same as the RL's...the rear door isn't cut out an angle where the sill plates would be so short that it would be impossible to print out Infiniti on them.

DownUnder

I personally don’t see it as a cost cutting move since it really doesn’t cost much if anything to stamp it. And looking at most of the models from Infiniti they don’t stamp the rear doorsills either even on the Q45 so this again is a design preference on their part and I don’t see this as cutting corners. And like I pointed out before the MB E-class also has a blank stainless steel plate that runs along the rear doorsill, and I don't hear anyone complaining on MBWorld.org that Mercedes cut corners by not stamping the rear door sill plate on the E-class. BTW, the Acura RL’s doorsill emblem is simply a strip of molded rubber/plastic that says “Acura” on it. Most luxury cars in this class have a stainless steel or aluminum plate on the doorsills. So I don’t see that the Acura has an advantage over the Infiniti in this area other than Acura having it’s name on the rear doorsill.



More flexibility for what, to store groceries in your door pocket? Like I said before a door pocket is intended to hold maps and/or papers, if it can accomplish this task well then it serves it’s purpose. And the hinged door pocket “feature” isn’t that important to many since I’ve never heard anyone (other then you) complain about a luxury car not having hinged door pockets. Again this is not a cost cutting move since there are higher priced luxury cars that simply use fixed door pockets.



Some of the examples I used aren’t going to be redesigned anytime soon since they came out not to long ago:
XJ8 redesigned in 2004.
Mercedes E-class redesigned in 2003.
Mercedes CLS introduced this year.



The articles I’ve read on the Infiniti M always praise the interior in style, build quality, and attention to detail and they don’t mention anything about cost cutting. Here’s just a few examples on what they say about the M’s interior:

Autoweek:
The interior is tasteful and impressive.

Automobile Magazine:
Matte rosewood trim or aluminum swoop and sweep across the M's instrument panel in a design purportedly inspired by a piano keyboard. Nissan's cost cutters did not show up for this particular recital, so the cabin materials, if not best in class (Audi), are on par with Mercedes and superior to Cadillac.

Canadian Driver:
Both "M" models continually surprise with their fine rendering of small components throughout the car. For example, the stitching on the seats, the aluminum gearshift base, the furniture-like wood surfaces and the carefully constructed knobs and buttons are among many interior and exterior components that receive an uncommonly high level of attention. The overall impression is one of quality, refinement and performance potential.

MotorTrend:
One complaint buyers had with the first G35, was the Spartan interior. Not so with the M35, which Nissan gave an upgraded materials to attract more luxury car buyers. Even on the base car, the interior is richly appointed.



I already admitted before to someone else that it was a weak argument about using wheel size to describe cost cutting, just like you using non-hinged door pockets and blank rear sill plate is a weak argument on describing what cost cutting is to justify Infiniti's aggressive pricing on the M. Bottom line all cars have trade offs, some things on the Acura RL may be better then the Infiniti M and vice versa. No car is perfect no matter how much it costs.

phile

I'm not saying people are pointing it out...but it is my opinion that it's a cost cutting feature. You felt compelled to argue it, and this is why we're having the debate. So what if the Acura emblem is molded rubber/plastic? I'm not saying it's a deal breaker...just the mere fact that it's there and not present in the Infiniti. And I don't think I've ever implied that having stamped doorsills would have a huge effect on price; I've only implied that it would cost less to not have them. The fact that the M costs considerably less than the RL is by no means a result of the RL simply having Acura stamped on all four doorsills and Infiniti only having it on two doorsills. If that's what you were reading from it, it was erroneous on your part; I tried to be as clear as possible.

What an owner stores in the map pockets is irrelevant. The fact is, it offers more flexibility than a non-hinged map pocket...that's all I'm arguing. And again, this is not about what others complain about, I'm just pointing it out in my argument. You don't think it would cost more to have hinged door pockets than non-hinged ones? Forget that you're arguing that it's a design element...why would you think it would not cost Infiniti more to add this feature?


Again, as I've pointed out, the Mercedes door map pockets are designed differently. They do not require hinged door pockets; you cannot point out that Mercedes doesn't use them, therefore...it's not a cost cutting feature. So in that list, only the XJ8 really qualifies as an example of door pockets not being hinged.


You're taking this argument on a tangent. It is of my opinion that Infiniti is cost cutting by pointing out things such as stamped rear doorsills and hinged door pockets, which are available on the RL; just because you can rake up 200 reviews praising the Infiniti's interior has really no bearing on what the discussion is about. They paid attention to other details...that is true, and they also did not pay attention to the features that are lacking, which I'm pointing out. I never said the quality of the Infiniti's interior is disappointing because it's missing X Y Z feature.


You are prolonging this, even trying to take it to new territories, when all I did was merely expressed my opinion on your tactic for justifying what is cost cutting on Acura's part, and yet argue it when someone else uses the same style of comparing what's available on other cars and what's missing on on the Infiniti as examples of cost cutting. And this was your response...you went back and then re-analyzed what I wrote and led this discussion here. You may agree that your wheel argument is weak; I do not feel that my argument is weak; they may be using the same tactics, but the examples are different. You can slap on bigger tires for the RL. You'd have to do a lot more work to get hinged door map pockets on the Infiniti.

DownUnder

Well I said my , we could argue this debate from all angles. But in the end we aren’t going to change each others opinions on this subject, so I’ll end this on a good note.