GoHawks

OK this is the proverbial "apples to oranges" comparison, and why would you feel dejected? The RL is not intended to compete with a BMW 7-series. Now if you want to argue that Acura doesn't have a true flagship to compete at that level (read: Lexus LS) then I agree.

The RL's competition is typically the Lexus GS, Infiniti M, Audi A6, BMW 5-Series (lower priced models). None of these cars I mentioned are the flagship models for their brands. Granted that many of these models have some of the features you mentioned, but they also cost significantly more.

As someone else mentioned, maybe Honda isn't interested in competing at the >$50K category. They maybe perfectly content nibbling away at people who would be considering the cars I mentioned above. If this is the case, I may not agree with that philosophy, but it may be possible.

dwboston

The right response is that the RL doesn't compete with the 7 series, it competes with the 5 series, and no BMW5 series car offers all of those options either, and if it did it would cost $60k+. A 7 series with all of those options would cost twice what the RL costs. Of course, you know all this stuff - you just want to pretend that the RL and 740 are direct competitors (even though one is a midsize luxury sedan selling for $42k and the other is a full-size flagship that starts at around $70k).

What's your point here? Do you want a $70k Acura sedan to sell to 7 series buyers? Do you want all of those options added to the RL to raise the price tag to $60k. Are there really that many people who cross-shop the RL and 7-series BMW's?

mrdeeno

And this mindset is why Acura has trouble selling cars at $50k.

You don't seem to realize it (and neither does honda) that most poeple in the $50k range want "those features" and are willing to pay for them. And if Acura doesn't offer those features, then the buyers just go to a brand that does.

Most buyers in this range aren't "value" buyers, otherwise they wouldn't even be shopping in this segment.

It's like you trying to convince paris hilton to go shop at walmart. Do you really think a reasonable argument to her would be "things are cheaper at walmart" ?

mrdeeno

Yeah, go over to the HOnda CEO thread and read that.

they are NOT happy that their Rl sales suck, so these theories that they are "perfectly content" is completely off base.

dwboston

No car company offers all of those features at $50k. The base price for a BMW 530xi with leather is $52k with no other options. Name a car with all of the features of the RL that sells or lists for $50k.

jhr3uva90

Here's a better idea: read the entire interview. Yes, the CEO implied that he wasn't content with Acura sales. However, everything else he had to say about Acura was brief and vague. Based on what I read, he seemed to have more to say about fuel economy than about Acura.

This is an all or nothing thing. It isn't that Honda has NO interest in the luxury market. It's just that the luxury market does not seem to be their top priority or even close to their top priority. Check Honda's latest annual report to also see their priorities. The report barely mentions Acura.

The point is this: no Honda Motor Corporation of Japan is not completely content with the state of Acura sales. However, it is most likely NOT their top priority to dominate the luxury market. If that were the case, they would put more resources into creating a RWD platform capable of supporting a full-size car with at least a V8 engine. They would also make that platform capable of supporting a mid-sized car. That way, they could finally differentiate the Acura brand from the Honda brand in the same way that Infiniti has finally been differentiated from Nissan. However, if you look at the entire interview, plus the majority of Honda's press releases and their annual report, you'll see that they are concentrating on fuel efficiency and alternative-fuel vehicles more than luxury cars.

kenny5

I think jhr3uva90 made a valid point and astute observation. I agree that Acura is not focussing at the super luxury/performance market. Instead, it is only competing in the mid-luxury/performance market, and we all know which are the competing cars. What Acura is disappointed at is the poor sales of its RL, when compared with targeted competing cars. This is evidenced by Acura having spent R&D $$ in coming up with SH-AWD. But even with this seemingly cutting edge technology, the RL has not sold well after its initial debut.

Perhaps, as jhr3uva90 has observed, Honda/Acura is concentrating on fuel efficient and greener cars. In view of the instability in the middle-east, who can guarantee that gas will remain below $3 a gallon in the next 2 to 3 years. The Japanese automakers made inroads in the US market when there was an energy crisis in the 70s, they are now positioning themselves to further penetrate and annhiliate the US market with their green cars supported by modern technology. The BIG 3 has a lot to learn!!

jhr3uva90

Yes, and when Honda in Japan put in R&D into SH-AWD, they used the RL/Legend as a type of production test mule for the system. Now that SH-AWD has proven to work, Acura in North America is incorporating it into its models. So in that sense, as a test mule, the Legend has served its purpose for HMC. As a big seller, not so much.

CL6

I said older 7-series. This one was about 6 or 7 years old. Of course, the 7-series does not compete with an RL, which is what I pointed out. I am simply saying this is an example of what luxury cutomers are looking for. I was then asked why Acura does not have a flagship sedan with these features on it.

jhr3uva90

It would be great if there was a full-size "true" Acura flagship. Again, if it were a priority for Honda, then they would have made one by now. As far I can tell, they are the only luxury brand that does NOT have such a vehicle and I'm sure that they know that.

neuronbob

I agree with both of you, CL6 and jhr. Acura seems to have purposely left the superluxury market, with all th features that CL6 mentioned, to Lexus and the rest, while concentrating on luxury SUVs (where Acura is doing well with the MDX, not so well with the RDX) and on the TL and TSX, which are doing quite well for their stage in model life--that is, the TL is selling a little less but hasn't dropped off the radar, and the TSX actually does better every year.

Rexorg

IMHO I think sales of the RL are down because there is not much difference between the '05, '06, and '07 on the outside, and before '07 not much choice in options. That is why the STS is more popular. You can get one anywhere from $45,000 to $70,000 with V6 or V8 and add options that your wallet can afford. Also, the styling packages for the RL that the dealer can install are just too expensive for the average Joe.

jhr3uva90

Yes, a mid-model refresh can't come soon enough!!!

wstr75

As you know, I drove a "new" (1348 miles) 2006 RL off a Lexus dealer's lot in South Florida yesterday. My wife and I flew down for the Orange Bowl and are driving back to NC. We own a 2002 RL and a RX 400h. We both agree our 2006 RL is a very fine car. It's got everything we want. It is quiet, runs like a deer, handles like a sports car, is just the right size, stops on a dime and got 25.4 mpg over 400 miles while averaging 79 mph. The audio (radio, CD and XM) and navigation is one heck of a lot better than our 2006 RX 400h (Lexus doesn't have XM and its navigation is a pain in the butt - in fact the Lexus salesman remarked out loud (as he was demonstrating the RL's navigation system to my wife) that the RL navigation system was a lot easier to use than the Lexus system.

I am thoroughly pleased with my car. Acura should be selling RLs on at least a 1:5 ratio to the TL. It does not need to be larger or have a V-8. It also does not need to be de-contented (I bet the de-contented 2007 RLs don't sell well). A kick butt leasing program would likely jack-up RL sales. Acura should have put better looking standard wheels on the 2007 RL and maybe replaced the white with a cream/diamond white as well as introducing a silver similar to the blue/silver on our 2002 RL. It is too good of a car to not be selling. It would not hurt to have a SPIF program (a sales incentive paid from the factory direct to the salesman) for each RL he/she sells. Newsletter recognition and other motivational kickers could also be awarded to the top 5 RL salesmen in each state or district. This is standard punt, pass and kick stuff for getting folks motivated to make things happen. Again, after putting 400 miles on my RL, I feel it is an exceptional car. Acura should price it with navigation at a 45K list, create a kick butt leasing program and get on with selling a bunch of cars. It surely does not cost any more to manufacture a RL than a MDX (unless Japanese labor is higher and the overseas shipping is a significant factor). Put standard Ipod connection/software in each RL and send it out with a base model Ipod loaded with two audio best seller business books, a book that would appeal to womenfolk and 30 fantastic songs covering the spectrum from country to jazz). Let the salesman play the Ipod selections that he/she feels appeals to the customer and use it to show how the RL represents more than basic transportation . . . . . it represents a means to enhance your lifestyle in music, learning, going places without embarrassment (navigation), etc. Hey, the navigation system made our trip more enjoyable today and this is from a guy with a Garmin, an 02 RL with navigation and a 400h with navigation (it makes frustrates me most times!).

Enough rambling. The 05 - 07 RL is a sweet car. It should be in a lot of garages across America.

jhr3uva90

Excellent review!

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

I like your review there wstr75, I agree with everything you've said except one one thing, I don't think it costs about the same to manufacture the RL and MDX. Just the fact that they make more MDXs would help manufacturing them cheaper. I'm not sure about the new MDX, but the old shared its platform as well as many other components with other cars such as the Odyssey, Pilot, and Ridgeline. The RL barely shared anything with other cars until recently (like the SH-AWD and engine).

Anyways, I think Honda knows that it doesn't have a full-size luxury sedan. I believe the reason behind is that they spent so much effort in the RL, yet they can't sell many of those. That would make them think whether they could sell a car even more expensive and more luxury than the RL. They need to raise their image higher first before they have the confidence to build a top-end luxury sedan. Besides confidence and image, another factor we need to look at is the size of Honda Motor Company. Unlike Toyota, Honda is much smaller company; unlike Nissan, Honda is not financed/owned by any other company; unlike the European car makers such as BMW, Mercedes, and Audi, Honda is not dedicated into making luxury cars and so it doesn't spend 100% of their resources into making them. Just like most of you have said, Honda has other priorities.

jhr3uva90

The MDX is probably cheaper to manufacture than the RL, even though the MDX is a bit bigger. You have to look at the details of both vehicles. The RL has real wood, the MDX has fake wood. the RL has headlights that move, the MDX does not. The RL has more LEDs in the rear lights than the MDX. It's the little differences that drive up the manufacturing costs of the RL. Fortunately, the RL does share a platform with every other Acura sedan, so that helps reduce the costs.

Now about the full-sized luxury sedan. The market for such a car in the US is pretty small and in Europe it is even smaller. Also, that market is crowded with brand names that have had DECADES to build name recognition. That's why, sales wise, the Lexus LS is to the Mercedes S-Class and the BMW 7-Series what the RL is to the E-Class and the 5-Series: not even close. The Infiniti Q has been around for 15+ years now and 3 different generations, yet it has always been a sales failure.

Based on the quantitative factors, I can see why Honda is reluctant to build a true flagship, especially since such a car would be the antithesis of what Honda is known for. That being said, I would really like to see such an Acura.

Meteor06RL

Where is there real wood in the RL? I took my dash completely apart to install the Neo iPod link and every piece of "wood" I saw was 100% genuine plastic.

jhr3uva90

It is a real wood veneer under a sheet of plastic in the 2nd generation RL.

neuronbob

Thanks for your thoughts, wstr75. Glad the RL is working out.

I've been driving mine a lot--it's been 3 1/2 months and I already have almost 4700 miles on it.

aaaaaaaahhhh...

ssim3

You are not driving much. got mine 9-2 & have 8500 miles.

123456SPEED

I don't think building a large V8 sedan fits historically into Honda's automotive mission. Honda has always been about efficiency, simplicity, and 'green', well before we ever used the term green.
People wondering if Honda could build a V8 sedan is silly. Of course they could build it, but they are not seen as lux car makers so Honda knows there would be a lot of costs and lots of risk in such a competitive market. This is assuming they would consider changing their longtime mission.

I believe Honda's Acura should stick to their plan and offer the best 6 cylinder engine cars money can buy, and also look at greener technologies. This is the future, not a pillow car that gets 10-15 mph and takes up maximum space. I'm glad Acura is not in the pure lux car market. Most Lexus are pretty inside, but boring overall.

I want Acura to go more sport/tech and less pure lux. I love that Acura has finally gone back to offering 6speed/6cyl combos. I waited 8 years for this combo between the 95 Legends and the 03 CLS. (I know NSX had it).
Acura now offers MT in most of their sedans. Try to find a MT/6cylinder in all of the dozens of models from Toyota and Lexus. I've never seen one since the early Lexus SC300 coupe.

Well if Acura had premium coupe I'd be happier. Since sedans and the Accord are their bread and butter I'm not hopeful. I like the RL a lot except for the styling.

GoHawks

Another thing about V8s. The V8 that Lexus offers is doesn't just go in the LS. While the bore may differ among vehicles, a varient of that V8 is offered in the 4Runner, Lexus GX470, GS, Toyota Land Cruiser, Lexus LX470, Toyota Sequoia and of course the LS.

With Nissan/Infiniti you have the same thing. The Q (now defunct), the M, The QX, The Armada, Titan, etc.

That's a lot of vehicles to spread out the cost of an engine architecture.

Unless the next NSX is going to have a V8 (aren't there rumors of a V10?) I don't see Honda building a V8 for just one model.

Honda has taken the "sharing" approach I mentioned above with SH-AWD. It was offered in the RL, then the RDX, now the MDX. If rumors are true, it'll be in the next-gen TL, and before long you'll see it in a Honda Accord (didn't that SH-AWD video actually show an Accord?)

Hopefully I'm wrong, but I just don't see it in the near term.

lland

They could also put it in the MDX, Hondal Pilot, Honda Ridgeline, and possibly put one in a big marine engine as well (the 3.5 V6 is already out there).

LL

jhr3uva90

The question is, of course, whether the MDX, Pilot, etc. can accomodate a larger engine.

mrdeeno

but that goes back to the fact that they can build it to accomodate a V8, especially the next generations of each.

But if they never build a V8, they will always have an excuse not to build a platform to accomodate it. And if they never build a platform to accomodate it, they will always have an excuse to not build a V8.

and the circle of excuses not to build a V8 will never end over at Honda corporate.

jhr3uva90

Apparently, a V10 is on the way! Maybe that engine can be used in the next MDX and RL.