2006 Sales Down 34.3%
01-04-2007, 07:03 PM
#41
Three Wheelin'
If you are going to lease, then you should get a BMW or Mercedes. If you care about technology and low maintenance, then you should consider Japanese.
That reminds me, if I ever need a second vehicle in the future, I'd probably get a used RDX. I'm sure the used ones are going to drop in cost.
That reminds me, if I ever need a second vehicle in the future, I'd probably get a used RDX. I'm sure the used ones are going to drop in cost.
01-04-2007, 07:04 PM
#42
Racer
Originally Posted by Rob144
I'm not an SUV fan, but I think the MDX is going to set the tone (a better one) for Acura's perception in the marketplace. Maybe that will rub off on the RL.
01-04-2007, 07:09 PM
#43
Three Wheelin'
Is it worth it to offer a V8 option, even if that option only results in an extra 100 units a month? If sales of the GS 430 vs. the GS 350 are any indication, about 11% or so are V8's. So is it worth it to Honda to offer a V8 engine to sell about 100 extra RL's per month? At least Lexus has several models that can accommodate a V8, which spreads the cost. The a V8 would probably only work with an MDX and an RL, if at all. And then typical Honda/Acura drivers will start bitching because a V8 Acura costs too much!
Why does the Caddy STS outsell the Lexus GS? They both have V8 options. Why does the Lexus GS outsell the Audi A6? They both have V8 options. A V8 engine is not the silver bullet to raise sales, although I'm sure we would ALL have the option.
Why does the Caddy STS outsell the Lexus GS? They both have V8 options. Why does the Lexus GS outsell the Audi A6? They both have V8 options. A V8 engine is not the silver bullet to raise sales, although I'm sure we would ALL have the option.
01-04-2007, 08:49 PM
#44
Burning Brakes
That Copper Orange RL over in the other thread makes me wish there was at least one exciting color for the RL to help raise awareness and really show off the car. Kind of a halo color that the bold RL customer might buy.
Copper was often a color that got attention for a newly introduced model -- think of the Inifiniti FX, Nissan Murano and the like. The RL color palette is pretty tame. Great paint job, but dull colors.
Still, this is just nibbling around the edges -- how to get the RL the attention it deserves in the market.
Assuming the car itself doesn't change for the next 2 model years, then what can be done with the car as it now stands for a low investment? Is it a lost cause?
Acura has already divided the lineup into a 3-model range and changed the pricing. They could improve the color palette with more exciting colors. They could change the wheel design (or go to 18" as standard). They could probably change the front and rear bumpers, grille, headlights, and hood trim for a revised look (perhaps an MDX-type shield grille) They could add some more wood on the console, and include the wood steering wheel with the top-line offering. They could offer cooled seats like their competitors. And I suppose they could tweak the engine for more power to further distinguish it from the TL A-Spec. And increase their advertising.
The later years of the 1st generation RL did those things - new hood/grille, revised rear lights and trunk, different wheels, more wood trim and it did improve the look of the car (if not the sales). Although similar in size, the RL was (and is) not seen as a serious competitor to the LS since it had no V8 (although some early comparison tests with the G2 Legend did pit that against the LS400 and Q45).
Rob144
Copper was often a color that got attention for a newly introduced model -- think of the Inifiniti FX, Nissan Murano and the like. The RL color palette is pretty tame. Great paint job, but dull colors.
Still, this is just nibbling around the edges -- how to get the RL the attention it deserves in the market.
Assuming the car itself doesn't change for the next 2 model years, then what can be done with the car as it now stands for a low investment? Is it a lost cause?
Acura has already divided the lineup into a 3-model range and changed the pricing. They could improve the color palette with more exciting colors. They could change the wheel design (or go to 18" as standard). They could probably change the front and rear bumpers, grille, headlights, and hood trim for a revised look (perhaps an MDX-type shield grille) They could add some more wood on the console, and include the wood steering wheel with the top-line offering. They could offer cooled seats like their competitors. And I suppose they could tweak the engine for more power to further distinguish it from the TL A-Spec. And increase their advertising.
The later years of the 1st generation RL did those things - new hood/grille, revised rear lights and trunk, different wheels, more wood trim and it did improve the look of the car (if not the sales). Although similar in size, the RL was (and is) not seen as a serious competitor to the LS since it had no V8 (although some early comparison tests with the G2 Legend did pit that against the LS400 and Q45).
Rob144
01-04-2007, 09:12 PM
#45
Senior Moderator
Originally Posted by jhr3uva90
Is it worth it to offer a V8 option, even if that option only results in an extra 100 units a month?
) would enhance the image of the car in its last two (or more?) years. Heck, how about a V6 that, like Nissan's VQ, offers more torque lower in the power band? My prediction is they won't add a V8 this generation, but next year (some had predicted this year) they'll add the 3.7 liter engine from the MDX. It makes sense given that the fourth model year of the TL is when they did the MMC for it. However, the 3.7 engine has the same issue as the current 3.5 liter powerplant: that 300 hp is seen at 6000 rpm and that 275 lb-ft of torque is seen at 5000 rpm.
Maybe they'll make some adjustments for the RL. 
01-04-2007, 09:21 PM
#46
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Originally Posted by jhr3uva90
Is it worth it to offer a V8 option, even if that option only results in an extra 100 units a month? If sales of the GS 430 vs. the GS 350 are any indication, about 11% or so are V8's. So is it worth it to Honda to offer a V8 engine to sell about 100 extra RL's per month? At least Lexus has several models that can accommodate a V8, which spreads the cost. The a V8 would probably only work with an MDX and an RL, if at all. And then typical Honda/Acura drivers will start bitching because a V8 Acura costs too much!
Why does the Caddy STS outsell the Lexus GS? They both have V8 options. Why does the Lexus GS outsell the Audi A6? They both have V8 options. A V8 engine is not the silver bullet to raise sales, although I'm sure we would ALL have the option.
Why does the Caddy STS outsell the Lexus GS? They both have V8 options. Why does the Lexus GS outsell the Audi A6? They both have V8 options. A V8 engine is not the silver bullet to raise sales, although I'm sure we would ALL have the option.
Yes, it most definitely IS worth it to have a V8 engine, even if only 100 more units of the RL are sold.
It may not make a difference when looking at it in such a narrow scope (only RL V8 sales), but it will make a bigger difference when looking at Acura as a whole for several reasons.
1) If you're gonna play in the game, you better have the right gear...having a V8 will indicate that Acura is SERIOUS about competing in the $50k segment, because they are taking the steps needed to compete head to head with established makes in the $50k segment. This will raise brand image and awareness for people who previously didn't consider Acura a serious player in this segment.
2) It gives future products room to grow. We've already seen previously midsize cars move upmarket with more features and get heavier, requiring larger engines. The Rav4 is now available with a V6. A toyota camry has a 3.5l engine. The next accord better be able to answer, and this will push the TL up further because an Accord's performance surely shouldn't rival that of the TL. Having a V8 will give Acura more breathing room as they move upmarket. The MDX is already at 3.7l, how much bigger do they want to make their v6?
3) It gives another area to develop and compete. Current and future technology will make V8 models rival the fuel economy of V6 models. Automakers with production V8 engines have a head start because they are already developing these technologies to make their V8's more fuel efficient, giving buyers that want more power/torque what they want as well as good fuel economy. Honda sure as hell isn't working on making their V8's more fuel efficient...they haven't even developed a V8 to work from yet.
4) It let's people know that Honda isn't afraid of competition. XXX company builds a refined V8 with excellent fuel economy and emissions? A renowned engine company should do it even better. But instead they make excuses for not doing it instead. Yeah, that sure helps raise honda's brand image.
No, a V8 is not the "silver bullet" for better sales. But as of right now, Honda sent the RL into a gunfight with an unloaded gun.
01-04-2007, 09:31 PM
#47
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Originally Posted by Rob144
That Copper Orange RL over in the other thread makes me wish there was at least one exciting color for the RL to help raise awareness and really show off the car. Kind of a halo color that the bold RL customer might buy.
Copper was often a color that got attention for a newly introduced model -- think of the Inifiniti FX, Nissan Murano and the like. The RL color palette is pretty tame. Great paint job, but dull colors.
Still, this is just nibbling around the edges -- how to get the RL the attention it deserves in the market.
Assuming the car itself doesn't change for the next 2 model years, then what can be done with the car as it now stands for a low investment? Is it a lost cause?
Acura has already divided the lineup into a 3-model range and changed the pricing. They could improve the color palette with more exciting colors. They could change the wheel design (or go to 18" as standard). They could probably change the front and rear bumpers, grille, headlights, and hood trim for a revised look (perhaps an MDX-type shield grille) They could add some more wood on the console, and include the wood steering wheel with the top-line offering. They could offer cooled seats like their competitors. And I suppose they could tweak the engine for more power to further distinguish it from the TL A-Spec. And increase their advertising.
The later years of the 1st generation RL did those things - new hood/grille, revised rear lights and trunk, different wheels, more wood trim and it did improve the look of the car (if not the sales). Although similar in size, the RL was (and is) not seen as a serious competitor to the LS since it had no V8 (although some early comparison tests with the G2 Legend did pit that against the LS400 and Q45).
Rob144
Copper was often a color that got attention for a newly introduced model -- think of the Inifiniti FX, Nissan Murano and the like. The RL color palette is pretty tame. Great paint job, but dull colors.
Still, this is just nibbling around the edges -- how to get the RL the attention it deserves in the market.
Assuming the car itself doesn't change for the next 2 model years, then what can be done with the car as it now stands for a low investment? Is it a lost cause?
Acura has already divided the lineup into a 3-model range and changed the pricing. They could improve the color palette with more exciting colors. They could change the wheel design (or go to 18" as standard). They could probably change the front and rear bumpers, grille, headlights, and hood trim for a revised look (perhaps an MDX-type shield grille) They could add some more wood on the console, and include the wood steering wheel with the top-line offering. They could offer cooled seats like their competitors. And I suppose they could tweak the engine for more power to further distinguish it from the TL A-Spec. And increase their advertising.
The later years of the 1st generation RL did those things - new hood/grille, revised rear lights and trunk, different wheels, more wood trim and it did improve the look of the car (if not the sales). Although similar in size, the RL was (and is) not seen as a serious competitor to the LS since it had no V8 (although some early comparison tests with the G2 Legend did pit that against the LS400 and Q45).
Rob144
Save that moeny and put it into development into the next generation and make it what this RL should have been, a completely OVER THE TOP car that makes no excuses and gives buyers in the $50k range every reason to consider it a viable alternative to ANY other model in the segment.
01-04-2007, 09:36 PM
#49
Three Wheelin'
From a financial standpoint it is NOT worth it to manufacture a V8 engine for 100 cars a month. Manufacturing cars isn't like manufacturing software, the marginal costs are much higher. Honda could actually lose money by selling more cars in this fashion.
And my point about the STS and GS outselling the RL is that a V8 engine is not necessarily a panacea. It is the brand that sells cars at these price points. Although Cadillac has lost the younger generations (Escalade excluded), it still has enough brand power among the older generations (who happen to have more disposable income) to sell the STS at higher numbers than the RL or GS. Meanwhile, the GS, which has never won anything as far as I know, is also outselling the RL, again because of the brand. A driving enthusiast would say at the Audi A6 is superior to both the STS and the GS, but sales don't reflect that. Why? Brand!!!
We can hope that a V8 or V10 is coming from Honda, but it will come from the top down. That means that there will probably be another Acura model above the RL. That car will probably have 2 doors and we will hopefully find out next week. Once that car arrives, maybe the engine can migrate down to the RL and MDX.
Also, bear in mind that the V8 or bigger is great for bragging rights, but sales don't catch up to the bragging. If anything, sales of larger engines is decreasing. If Honda has to focus their efforts on something, I'd rather it be flex-fuel and other alternative-fuel vehicles. The RL might flounder for now, but Honda will succeed in the long term.
And my point about the STS and GS outselling the RL is that a V8 engine is not necessarily a panacea. It is the brand that sells cars at these price points. Although Cadillac has lost the younger generations (Escalade excluded), it still has enough brand power among the older generations (who happen to have more disposable income) to sell the STS at higher numbers than the RL or GS. Meanwhile, the GS, which has never won anything as far as I know, is also outselling the RL, again because of the brand. A driving enthusiast would say at the Audi A6 is superior to both the STS and the GS, but sales don't reflect that. Why? Brand!!!
We can hope that a V8 or V10 is coming from Honda, but it will come from the top down. That means that there will probably be another Acura model above the RL. That car will probably have 2 doors and we will hopefully find out next week. Once that car arrives, maybe the engine can migrate down to the RL and MDX.
Also, bear in mind that the V8 or bigger is great for bragging rights, but sales don't catch up to the bragging. If anything, sales of larger engines is decreasing. If Honda has to focus their efforts on something, I'd rather it be flex-fuel and other alternative-fuel vehicles. The RL might flounder for now, but Honda will succeed in the long term.
01-04-2007, 09:55 PM
#50
Senior Moderator
Originally Posted by CL6
It's like the same conversation 15 different ways!
All I can say is that I like my RL very much, no matter what Acura does.
01-04-2007, 10:14 PM
#51
Originally Posted by CL6
It's like the same conversation 15 different ways!
01-04-2007, 10:17 PM
#52
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Originally Posted by jhr3uva90
From a financial standpoint it is NOT worth it to manufacture a V8 engine for 100 cars a month. Manufacturing cars isn't like manufacturing software, the marginal costs are much higher. Honda could actually lose money by selling more cars in this fashion.
And my point about the STS and GS outselling the RL is that a V8 engine is not necessarily a panacea. It is the brand that sells cars at these price points. Although Cadillac has lost the younger generations (Escalade excluded), it still has enough brand power among the older generations (who happen to have more disposable income) to sell the STS at higher numbers than the RL or GS. Meanwhile, the GS, which has never won anything as far as I know, is also outselling the RL, again because of the brand. A driving enthusiast would say at the Audi A6 is superior to both the STS and the GS, but sales don't reflect that. Why? Brand!!!
We can hope that a V8 or V10 is coming from Honda, but it will come from the top down. That means that there will probably be another Acura model above the RL. That car will probably have 2 doors and we will hopefully find out next week. Once that car arrives, maybe the engine can migrate down to the RL and MDX.
Also, bear in mind that the V8 or bigger is great for bragging rights, but sales don't catch up to the bragging. If anything, sales of larger engines is decreasing. If Honda has to focus their efforts on something, I'd rather it be flex-fuel and other alternative-fuel vehicles. The RL might flounder for now, but Honda will succeed in the long term.
And my point about the STS and GS outselling the RL is that a V8 engine is not necessarily a panacea. It is the brand that sells cars at these price points. Although Cadillac has lost the younger generations (Escalade excluded), it still has enough brand power among the older generations (who happen to have more disposable income) to sell the STS at higher numbers than the RL or GS. Meanwhile, the GS, which has never won anything as far as I know, is also outselling the RL, again because of the brand. A driving enthusiast would say at the Audi A6 is superior to both the STS and the GS, but sales don't reflect that. Why? Brand!!!
We can hope that a V8 or V10 is coming from Honda, but it will come from the top down. That means that there will probably be another Acura model above the RL. That car will probably have 2 doors and we will hopefully find out next week. Once that car arrives, maybe the engine can migrate down to the RL and MDX.
Also, bear in mind that the V8 or bigger is great for bragging rights, but sales don't catch up to the bragging. If anything, sales of larger engines is decreasing. If Honda has to focus their efforts on something, I'd rather it be flex-fuel and other alternative-fuel vehicles. The RL might flounder for now, but Honda will succeed in the long term.
Justify it how you want, but bottom line is sales suck.
01-04-2007, 10:44 PM
#53
Three Wheelin'
No, bottom line is that I'm pleased with my purchase, as are most people who actually have RL's.
Acura, on the other hand, has lots of work to do on a number of fronts.
And oh yeah, enjoy your Infiniti.
Acura, on the other hand, has lots of work to do on a number of fronts.
And oh yeah, enjoy your Infiniti.
01-04-2007, 11:04 PM
#54
2012 Cadillac CTS-V Coupe
I will agree whether or not a V8 makes practical sense is a moot point. A V8 is needed for perception (at a minimum).
As for the RL beating out other cars....
2nd place - Beat out the GS430, but losing to the M45
http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...rt-sedans.html
2nd place - In this one, losing to the GS430, but beating the M45
http://www.edmunds.com/apps/vdpconta...8/pageNumber=1
I think there are more out there, I'm just too lazy to keep searching.
As for the RL beating out other cars....
2nd place - Beat out the GS430, but losing to the M45
http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...rt-sedans.html
2nd place - In this one, losing to the GS430, but beating the M45
http://www.edmunds.com/apps/vdpconta...8/pageNumber=1
I think there are more out there, I'm just too lazy to keep searching.
01-04-2007, 11:19 PM
#55
Burning Brakes
Originally Posted by neuronbob
Hence my "beating a dead horse" comment.
All I can say is that I like my RL very much, no matter what Acura does.
All I can say is that I like my RL very much, no matter what Acura does.
We're enthusiasts who want to see our car (and brand) succeed in the marketplace.
Sorry, I thought I detected the horse twitching just there......
Rob144
01-05-2007, 07:44 AM
#56
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Originally Posted by mrdeeno
But going back to the RL...It's a quality car for what it is taken by itself and relative to all cars, but the fact that its a poor seller indicates that it is not competitive in one way or another in its segment.
Any discussion about why the RL isn't selling well/isn't competing well with other makes is WORTHLESS without examining Acura's corporate lack of commitment to servicing the car. I doubt that many folks experiencing the problems I've had would still be driving the car. The foot dragging/stonewalling I experienced in getting the early TSB's done was a fraudulent effort to deny warranty service.
I'm always amused by all the talk about decommissioning the Acura in order to sell more cars...or about the car needing a V8, etc., etc.
My opinion is that the car isn't doing well because some folks who bought the car abandoned the brand...that is, if they experienced what I've gone through.
I live a rather rural area...nobody in my neighborhood is going to purchase an Acura. However, if I lived in a surburban setting and my neighbors could see the condition of my driver's seat or listened to my service experience obtaining warranty work or in even merely having the headlights aimed, they'd not be purchasing an Acura.
The sense of dread I experience when regular servicing comes up causes a knot in my stomach. If I hadn't found a Honda dealer offering decent service, I wouldn't be driving the car.
Somebody at Honda is responsible for this happening. They need to be fired.
That's the bottom line.
01-05-2007, 11:19 AM
#57
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Originally Posted by GoHawks
I will agree whether or not a V8 makes practical sense is a moot point. A V8 is needed for perception (at a minimum).
As for the RL beating out other cars....
2nd place - Beat out the GS430, but losing to the M45
http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...rt-sedans.html
2nd place - In this one, losing to the GS430, but beating the M45
http://www.edmunds.com/apps/vdpconta...8/pageNumber=1
I think there are more out there, I'm just too lazy to keep searching.
As for the RL beating out other cars....
2nd place - Beat out the GS430, but losing to the M45
http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...rt-sedans.html
2nd place - In this one, losing to the GS430, but beating the M45
http://www.edmunds.com/apps/vdpconta...8/pageNumber=1
I think there are more out there, I'm just too lazy to keep searching.
thanks for DISproving your statement:
Originally Posted by GoHawks
The fact is that anytime the RL went head-to-head with either of those two cars, the RL always has come out ahead.
Both your sources show that the RL does NOT come out ahead, which is contrary to your statement. Coming out "ahead" would mean the RL coming in 1st (as in "ahead" of the others) in both those reviews, and coming out ahead anytime it is compared to its competitors would indicate it comes out 1st in ALL reviews.
01-05-2007, 11:39 AM
#58
2012 Cadillac CTS-V Coupe
Originally Posted by mrdeeno
thanks for DISproving your statement:
Both your sources show that the RL does NOT come out ahead, which is contrary to your statement. Coming out "ahead" would mean the RL coming in 1st (as in "ahead" of the others) in both those reviews, and coming out ahead anytime it is compared to its competitors would indicate it comes out 1st in ALL reviews.
Both your sources show that the RL does NOT come out ahead, which is contrary to your statement. Coming out "ahead" would mean the RL coming in 1st (as in "ahead" of the others) in both those reviews, and coming out ahead anytime it is compared to its competitors would indicate it comes out 1st in ALL reviews.
Go back and read my posts. I never said the RL has come in first. I said it has beat it's competitors. There is a difference.
In the first link the RL beat out the Lexus GS430, Mercedes E350, Audi A6 Quattro, BMW 530i, Cadillac STS V8, and the Jaguar S-Type 4.2 (in that order). Losing only to the Infiniti M45 sport.
You will also note that in that comparison, the RL didn't just beat out V6 AWD vehicles, but also RWD and V8 cars. Just disputing your statement that the RL only does well against simlar cars.
In the second example, the RL beat out the Infiniti M45, but lost to the Lexus GS430. Not bad considering that the RL being a V6 AWD vehicle was pitted against two V8 RWD cars.
01-05-2007, 11:41 AM
#59
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Originally Posted by jhr3uva90
No, bottom line is that I'm pleased with my purchase, as are most people who actually have RL's.
Acura, on the other hand, has lots of work to do on a number of fronts.
And oh yeah, enjoy your Infiniti.
Acura, on the other hand, has lots of work to do on a number of fronts.
And oh yeah, enjoy your Infiniti.
Yup, I was right...thread title is: 2006 Sales Down 34.3%
So how does you or anyone else being pleased with their purchase have anything to do with the bottom line of this thread?
Unless you and the others who are "pleased" with your purchase decide to trade in and buy new RL's every month to help bolster sales, current owners are the ones that have NO potential in helping the sales turn around.
The customers with the greatest potential to turn RL sales around are NON-RL owners, and considering the sales numbers, there are A LOT of non-RL owners out there.
Acura should be listening to the people who choose NOT to buy the RL...but i think Honda/Acura is a little too cocky and conceited to do such a thing so beneath them such as listening to potential $50k midsize luxury customers.
01-05-2007, 11:49 AM
#60
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Originally Posted by GoHawks
Go back and read my posts. I never said the RL has come in first. I said it has beat it's competitors. There is a difference.
again, you wrote:
Originally Posted by GoHawks
The fact is that anytime the RL went head-to-head with either of those two cars, the RL always has come out ahead.
i don't know how well your English is, but when someone says, "always has come out ahead", it pretty clearly means that it placed FIRST.
ahead
adjective
1. having the leading position or higher score in a contest.
How do you figure being in 2nd place as coming out ahead?
I guess John Kerry must have come out "ahead" of Bush in the last elections then.
01-05-2007, 12:15 PM
#61
2012 Cadillac CTS-V Coupe
God are you antagonistic or what?
OK, "always" should not have been used. The fact is though that your argument on the vehicle itself is flawed in that the RL has beat out many of it's competitors in any given test. It may not ALWAYS, but I've already conceded that point.
Now if you want to argue that the Acura brand has issues, I will agree. Does the RL need a V8 to be competitive? In reality no since the RL has outperformed other V8s in comparison tests, but since perception outweighs reality it's a given that Acura needs to get a V8 out there. I believe many of us have conceded that, so there's no reason to beat a dead horse.
As for your other condescending comment on being satisfied with purchasing the RL. Yes despite weak sales people can be satisfied.
I cross-shopped the RL with the Lexus GS and the Infiniti M, and I had the means to purchase any of the three. I didn't settle for the RL, I chose it. I loved the looks of the GS (still do), but the Nav and voice recognition of the Lexus/Toyota products have a very long way to go to reach that of Honda/Acura products. The GS300 (at the time I was shopping) was no better of a performer than the RL, and quite honestly I fell in love with the interior of the Acura. As for Infiniti, while I respect the product, the looks and styling just don't grab me.
Can depreciation/resale be an issue? Sure it can, but I tend to hold onto my cars for 5+ years so to me, it's not really an issue. As for dealer service, I contend that my dealer rivals many Lexus dealers out there so I get top notch service. I understand that it's not consistent among all Acura dealers, but for me, I don't have to buy a Lexus to get treated well.
So yes, while I may be disappointed that Acura has a way to go so that people perceive it to be the equivalent of Lexus, I don't get hung up one whether people view whether or not I am driving a Lexus equivalent. If I was, I would have purchased the Lexus. I fully understand that Acura has dropped the ball on marketing in the $50K category, and that's reinforced everytime someone gets in my car and compliments me on it, and is somewhat surprised by the vehicle itself, because the vehicle is anonymous.
As others have said, slap an L on the hood of the RL, and I'm certain we wouldn't be having this conversation. Again, looking at the vehicle itself (not the brand), the GS offers nothing that compels me to purchase it over the RL. Dimensionally it's similar, the fit and finish is comparable, performance is comparable, the AWD system in the RL is a bit more advanced, and dealer service (for me) is a non-issue.
The reason why the GS doesn't get trashed is because of the emblem on the hood, and that again comes down to the brand.
OK, "always" should not have been used. The fact is though that your argument on the vehicle itself is flawed in that the RL has beat out many of it's competitors in any given test. It may not ALWAYS, but I've already conceded that point.
Now if you want to argue that the Acura brand has issues, I will agree. Does the RL need a V8 to be competitive? In reality no since the RL has outperformed other V8s in comparison tests, but since perception outweighs reality it's a given that Acura needs to get a V8 out there. I believe many of us have conceded that, so there's no reason to beat a dead horse.
As for your other condescending comment on being satisfied with purchasing the RL. Yes despite weak sales people can be satisfied.
I cross-shopped the RL with the Lexus GS and the Infiniti M, and I had the means to purchase any of the three. I didn't settle for the RL, I chose it. I loved the looks of the GS (still do), but the Nav and voice recognition of the Lexus/Toyota products have a very long way to go to reach that of Honda/Acura products. The GS300 (at the time I was shopping) was no better of a performer than the RL, and quite honestly I fell in love with the interior of the Acura. As for Infiniti, while I respect the product, the looks and styling just don't grab me.
Can depreciation/resale be an issue? Sure it can, but I tend to hold onto my cars for 5+ years so to me, it's not really an issue. As for dealer service, I contend that my dealer rivals many Lexus dealers out there so I get top notch service. I understand that it's not consistent among all Acura dealers, but for me, I don't have to buy a Lexus to get treated well.
So yes, while I may be disappointed that Acura has a way to go so that people perceive it to be the equivalent of Lexus, I don't get hung up one whether people view whether or not I am driving a Lexus equivalent. If I was, I would have purchased the Lexus. I fully understand that Acura has dropped the ball on marketing in the $50K category, and that's reinforced everytime someone gets in my car and compliments me on it, and is somewhat surprised by the vehicle itself, because the vehicle is anonymous.
As others have said, slap an L on the hood of the RL, and I'm certain we wouldn't be having this conversation. Again, looking at the vehicle itself (not the brand), the GS offers nothing that compels me to purchase it over the RL. Dimensionally it's similar, the fit and finish is comparable, performance is comparable, the AWD system in the RL is a bit more advanced, and dealer service (for me) is a non-issue.
The reason why the GS doesn't get trashed is because of the emblem on the hood, and that again comes down to the brand.
01-05-2007, 01:08 PM
#62
Senior Moderator
C'mon guys.....
OK, mrdeeno, the RL wasn't first in any of the comparos. This is indisputable. You do have to give to GoHawks that the RL has come out ahead of the other cars in the comparos. Can we leave it at that, please?
Thanks.
Besides, this is tangential to the topic at hand.
OK, mrdeeno, the RL wasn't first in any of the comparos. This is indisputable. You do have to give to GoHawks that the RL has come out ahead of the other cars in the comparos. Can we leave it at that, please?
Thanks.
Besides, this is tangential to the topic at hand.
01-05-2007, 01:43 PM
#63
Burning Brakes
Originally Posted by GoHawks
I didn't settle for the RL, I chose it.
Finally, one reason I bought it was the quality of service I had received on my '04 MDX. No dealer issues at all. In fact, they recently changed the side steps onthe MDX, no questions asked, because a small part of the finish (hidden on the inside) was peeling.
I like the M but I didn't even look at it becasue (1) my brother just bought one and (2) there are no dealers convenient to me.
Am I happy with my purchase? Yes.
Do I care about sales numbers? No.
LL
01-05-2007, 02:17 PM
#65
Senior Moderator
Originally Posted by lland
Exactly, and I have yet to show the car to anyone who is not impressed. In fact, the day I brought it home, I stopped by a friend who has a new BMW 530i. After looking at the car for a while he asked me $60 (as in $60K)?
This is what convinces me that Acura needs to present the car differently in the media to make it sell.
Am I happy with my purchase? Yes.
Do I care about sales numbers? No.
Do I care about sales numbers? No.
01-05-2007, 04:01 PM
#66
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Originally Posted by neuronbob
This has been precisely my experience in my 3 1/2 months of ownership. All my buddies I show the car to, once they properly understand the features, are duly impressed. The visual improvement with the new wheels, tint and slight drop with A-Spec, increases said impression. And my colleagues drive more expensive cars than I do (doctor's lots where I work look like Lexus dealerships with a few scattered BMWs and some Acura TLs)
This is what convinces me that Acura needs to present the car differently in the media to make it sell.
This is what convinces me that Acura needs to present the car differently in the media to make it sell.
We've been over this many times here, but the real problem is the Acura brand. Many people with money don't want to drive around in an Acura. These are the same people who will pay 2-3X more for a chanel or LV handbag over a Coach. The coach may or may not be a superior bag, but it's irrelevant to the high end buyer.
I'm afraid that Acura's reputation as a value luxury brand is so entrenched, no amount of marketing will change that in the near future. It would take a tremendous amount of marketing investment and changes to the lineup to change the brand image. I think Acura knows this and has decided to play it safe and continue doing what they do best.
01-05-2007, 04:43 PM
#67
Three Wheelin'
Think about this: until 2006, Acura was selling $20K cars (Integra, RSX). How could the general public respect Acura as an upscale brand, when there were Acuras that were LESS expensive than Hondas? To make matters worse, at least there were people who didn't know that Intregras where Acuras. However, when they started calling the car the RSX, there was no doubt that it was an Acura. That one move actually took the Acura brand DOWNSCALE instead of UPSCALE.
Now that the cheapest Acura is around $28K, Acura can at least move a little bit upscale in the public's mind. You can now say that EVERY Acura has leather, EVERY Acura has a moonroof, EVERY Acura has a CD changer, etc. That is a good move, even though it will cause Acura to alienate some of their traditional customers.
Releasing the RDX makes it easier for Acura to make the MDX more luxurious and expensive. Again, Acura might alienate some customers, but at least they have the RDX as an alternative. A slightly more expensive, yet successful MDX is another good upscaling move, in my opinion.
What does Acura need to do next? Make the dealership experience more consistently upscale. This is going to be a challenge, since Acura doesn't actually own any dealerships. I guess Acura will have to offer incentives, and they will have to keep an eye on ALL the Acura dealerships, not just the ones near major cities or traditional Acura strongholds. No Acura customer should have to endure what bluemule endured. That was just wrong of Acura.
Finally, Acura needs to give off an upscale image in the media. They need to sponsor orchestras, ballet groups, and opera organizations. Not only will that help Acura become a good corporate citizen by helping these organizations, it will also get people connecting Acura with a type of class. Also, Acura should sponsor more than one jazz festival a year. Acura should be CONSISTENT in getting their magazine to their current customers and that magazine should show a glamorous Acura life. Acura should reinforce all of these actions with product placements and finally, advertising.
The most popular product Acura has it the TL. What car is most cross-shopped against the TL? The Honda Accord. Acura executives know this. In fact, I read this in an interview with one of them. If Acura wants to separate its brand from Honda, so that people will cross shop the TL with something other than the Accord, or so people will be willing to acquire an RL (which is NOT a bad car, it just has a bad brand), then they need to follow the steps outlined above.
Now that the cheapest Acura is around $28K, Acura can at least move a little bit upscale in the public's mind. You can now say that EVERY Acura has leather, EVERY Acura has a moonroof, EVERY Acura has a CD changer, etc. That is a good move, even though it will cause Acura to alienate some of their traditional customers.
Releasing the RDX makes it easier for Acura to make the MDX more luxurious and expensive. Again, Acura might alienate some customers, but at least they have the RDX as an alternative. A slightly more expensive, yet successful MDX is another good upscaling move, in my opinion.
What does Acura need to do next? Make the dealership experience more consistently upscale. This is going to be a challenge, since Acura doesn't actually own any dealerships. I guess Acura will have to offer incentives, and they will have to keep an eye on ALL the Acura dealerships, not just the ones near major cities or traditional Acura strongholds. No Acura customer should have to endure what bluemule endured. That was just wrong of Acura.
Finally, Acura needs to give off an upscale image in the media. They need to sponsor orchestras, ballet groups, and opera organizations. Not only will that help Acura become a good corporate citizen by helping these organizations, it will also get people connecting Acura with a type of class. Also, Acura should sponsor more than one jazz festival a year. Acura should be CONSISTENT in getting their magazine to their current customers and that magazine should show a glamorous Acura life. Acura should reinforce all of these actions with product placements and finally, advertising.
The most popular product Acura has it the TL. What car is most cross-shopped against the TL? The Honda Accord. Acura executives know this. In fact, I read this in an interview with one of them. If Acura wants to separate its brand from Honda, so that people will cross shop the TL with something other than the Accord, or so people will be willing to acquire an RL (which is NOT a bad car, it just has a bad brand), then they need to follow the steps outlined above.
01-05-2007, 04:50 PM
#68
Asian07RL
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Originally Posted by lland
Exactly, and I have yet to show the car to anyone who is not impressed. In fact, the day I brought it home, I stopped by a friend who has a new BMW 530i. After looking at the car for a while he asked me $60 (as in $60K)?
Finally, one reason I bought it was the quality of service I had received on my '04 MDX. No dealer issues at all. In fact, they recently changed the side steps onthe MDX, no questions asked, because a small part of the finish (hidden on the inside) was peeling.
I like the M but I didn't even look at it becasue (1) my brother just bought one and (2) there are no dealers convenient to me.
Am I happy with my purchase? Yes.
Do I care about sales numbers? No.
LL
Finally, one reason I bought it was the quality of service I had received on my '04 MDX. No dealer issues at all. In fact, they recently changed the side steps onthe MDX, no questions asked, because a small part of the finish (hidden on the inside) was peeling.
I like the M but I didn't even look at it becasue (1) my brother just bought one and (2) there are no dealers convenient to me.
Am I happy with my purchase? Yes.
Do I care about sales numbers? No.
LL
No, I do not care about sales numbers.
I did look at BMW530Xi but decided on RL.( I need AWD)
I also do not care others people who have bad mouths the RL.
01-05-2007, 07:18 PM
#69
Burning Brakes
Originally Posted by neuronbob
This is what convinces me that Acura needs to present the car differently in the media to make it sell.
LL
01-05-2007, 09:12 PM
#70
Suzuka Master
Yes, I am very happy with my 05 RL.
No, I do not care about sales numbers.
I also do not care others people who have bad mouths the RL.[/QUOTE]
i have the means to purchase and test drove the gs 430, m35 with sport, audi a6, bmw 530, and merc cls500. it came down to value. the irony is i bought a 6 month old 05 rl with 2K miles on it for 10 K off MSRP (mind you this was 2 yrs ago when demand was still high) at a LEXUS dealership. some yahoo traded the rl in for a gx470. this occured as i was finalizing my deal on a spanking new glacier frost mica gs 430 for 53 K. for more than 10 K less it was a deal too good to resist. that's what the majority of us satisfied 2 gen rl owners seem to have in common, appreciation of value.
and who the f- cares about sales figures? i'm the ONE driving the car and enjoying the experience, car ownership is a highly individualized and personal experience. whether others drive/love/detest the rl doesn't validate or mitigate the fact that i love MY ride. if you're looking for acceptance in numbers go drive a 5 series bimmer or e-class merc like the rest of the status whores out there.
p.s. the infiniti m looks like a swollen g35/maxima with anasarca IMO.
No, I do not care about sales numbers.
I also do not care others people who have bad mouths the RL.[/QUOTE]
i have the means to purchase and test drove the gs 430, m35 with sport, audi a6, bmw 530, and merc cls500. it came down to value. the irony is i bought a 6 month old 05 rl with 2K miles on it for 10 K off MSRP (mind you this was 2 yrs ago when demand was still high) at a LEXUS dealership. some yahoo traded the rl in for a gx470. this occured as i was finalizing my deal on a spanking new glacier frost mica gs 430 for 53 K. for more than 10 K less it was a deal too good to resist. that's what the majority of us satisfied 2 gen rl owners seem to have in common, appreciation of value.and who the f- cares about sales figures? i'm the ONE driving the car and enjoying the experience, car ownership is a highly individualized and personal experience. whether others drive/love/detest the rl doesn't validate or mitigate the fact that i love MY ride. if you're looking for acceptance in numbers go drive a 5 series bimmer or e-class merc like the rest of the status whores out there.
p.s. the infiniti m looks like a swollen g35/maxima with anasarca IMO.
01-05-2007, 10:30 PM
#71
I'm agree with the points made by neuronbob, gohawks and surfer rick and also add that Acura has got to hold their dealers accountable for their store appearance, restrooms, coffee, amenities and other aspects relating to customer experience. In the never-ending post servicing customer surveys from Acura, I have repeatedly suggested having Wi-Fi in the local dealership so I can get some work done when sitting in the waiting room on a weekday. Have their provided Wi-Fi service? No. Does the local Lexus dealership where we take our RX 400h have Wi-Fi? Yes. For crying out loud, Wi-Fi is everywhere and it is cheap, cheap, cheap to provide.
Acura North America's field management deserves to be pimp slapped for not requiring Wi-Fi in every dealership waiting room, for not requiring absolutely pristine restrooms, for not doing "incognito" customer/shopper visits, etc. Along with better national marketing, there also needs to be better dealership level marketing done.
Acura North America's field management deserves to be pimp slapped for not requiring Wi-Fi in every dealership waiting room, for not requiring absolutely pristine restrooms, for not doing "incognito" customer/shopper visits, etc. Along with better national marketing, there also needs to be better dealership level marketing done.
01-05-2007, 11:32 PM
#72
Three Wheelin'
Actually, the Radley Acura dealership in Falls Church, VA has free WI-FI. It really should be required that ALL Acura dealerships have WI-FI.
01-06-2007, 12:23 AM
#73
Suzuka Master
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It's funny how a lot of you say that the dealerships need to do certain things to improve the "image" for Acura, because a lot of dealerships are lacking.
Who loses when a dealer sells a heavily discounted car? Who loses when they see customers walk away to other brands? Dealers are the ones that are in touch with customers because they are the ones that deal with customers day in and day out. And according to many articles about Acura, dealers have been requesting a V8 engine for a long time. when i bought my cl-s back in 2000, my dealer said that all the dealers were pushing for and expecting a RWD V8 2nd gen RL, and Acura told them not to worry because the next RL would be unquestionably kick-ass.
But what does Honda do? In all its infinite wisdom, they bitch-slap the dealers in the face and tell them that they are more in touch with customers than dealers are and give them what is now the current RL. That's easy for Honda to do because they aren't the ones losing money. If they see that RLs, that dealers have already paid Honda for, are sitting on lots, they can just cut back production and save themselves. Yet dealers STILL have RLs sitting on lots losing money while they sit and when they sell.
Why should dealers do anything for Acura when all Acura does is disregard their opinions?
And for all of you that say that you don't care about RL sales...that's what I said too when I had the cl-s...up until it came time to trade in or sell. I've already been down that road and therefore i'm not going to turn a blind eye and say that I don't care about sales.
Who loses when a dealer sells a heavily discounted car? Who loses when they see customers walk away to other brands? Dealers are the ones that are in touch with customers because they are the ones that deal with customers day in and day out. And according to many articles about Acura, dealers have been requesting a V8 engine for a long time. when i bought my cl-s back in 2000, my dealer said that all the dealers were pushing for and expecting a RWD V8 2nd gen RL, and Acura told them not to worry because the next RL would be unquestionably kick-ass.
But what does Honda do? In all its infinite wisdom, they bitch-slap the dealers in the face and tell them that they are more in touch with customers than dealers are and give them what is now the current RL. That's easy for Honda to do because they aren't the ones losing money. If they see that RLs, that dealers have already paid Honda for, are sitting on lots, they can just cut back production and save themselves. Yet dealers STILL have RLs sitting on lots losing money while they sit and when they sell.
Why should dealers do anything for Acura when all Acura does is disregard their opinions?
And for all of you that say that you don't care about RL sales...that's what I said too when I had the cl-s...up until it came time to trade in or sell. I've already been down that road and therefore i'm not going to turn a blind eye and say that I don't care about sales.
01-06-2007, 01:33 AM
#74
Three Wheelin'
The dealers requested the de-contented RL and they got it.
01-06-2007, 10:29 AM
#75
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Not having visited and posted in the past several days, I am missing out on all the action. Yet, this thread looks like a spinoff or morph from the Honda CEO thread. LOL!
I think Honda/Acura and its dealers should both share the blame for the lackluster sale of the RL. We have already spoken about (1) the lack of marketing efforts, Acura at the national level and dealers at the local level; (2) the inability to provide quality customer services - dealers are more at fault because they have direct, face to face contact with customers, but Acura corporate is not free from fault as many posters have complained about corporate's lack of response when customers do not get satisfaction from the dealers; (3) RL's intrinsic attribute of luxury and performance, which pales when compared with flagships from the Germans and Japanese rivals; and (4) customers' perception of Acura as a luxury brand, as evidenced by the lowly priced $20k RSX and dealers' failure in keeping an upscale showroom and amenities. (Feel free to add to this if I missed any.)
The relationship between Acura corporate and its dealers needs to be reviewed and improved in order for Acura to become competitive, part of which has to start with the dealers themselves. I remember my uncle told me that, in the late 70s and early 80s when gas was expensive, Japanese cars were selling briskly because US automakers did not have the technology to make fuel efficient cars. So, when my uncle went to Honda dealers looking to buy an Accord or Civic, he was not treated with respect because the dealers believed that those cars would sell themselves (and they did).
While I do not have any empirical facts, I believe many Acura dealers now are also Honda dealers or they have been "promoted" to sell the more upscale brand. Yet, some Acura dealers have not changed their attitude in dealing with customers even though times have changed and consumers are more knowledgeable. This hurts Acura. OTOH, it appears that Lexus (and even Infitiniti) has educated its dealers and required them to take on a much better attitude when dealing with customers, both in terms of sale and post-sale efforts.
It is also interesting to note, and I think we all agree, that most Acura buyers are value-minded individuals, as we are quite price sensitive. This is not to say that we are "cheap", but that we are financially prudent in making our purchases. As we all know with respect to wrist watches, a Timex is as reliable as a Rolex, but there is a distinct price difference between them and how customers are treated. Most Acura buyers, however, are more akin to Seiko watch buyers, who want something in between, and perhaps the "best" of both worlds, ie. something that is reliable, stylish (can be subjective), adequate luxury/performance, BUT THE PRICE MUST BE RIGHT. So, what is Acura to do in the future, in light of its "traditional" customer base? Does it want to compete with the prestigious nameplates to woo the Rolex buyers or should it just settle for the Seiko buyers? You decide ... and hopefully Acura will respond.
I think Honda/Acura and its dealers should both share the blame for the lackluster sale of the RL. We have already spoken about (1) the lack of marketing efforts, Acura at the national level and dealers at the local level; (2) the inability to provide quality customer services - dealers are more at fault because they have direct, face to face contact with customers, but Acura corporate is not free from fault as many posters have complained about corporate's lack of response when customers do not get satisfaction from the dealers; (3) RL's intrinsic attribute of luxury and performance, which pales when compared with flagships from the Germans and Japanese rivals; and (4) customers' perception of Acura as a luxury brand, as evidenced by the lowly priced $20k RSX and dealers' failure in keeping an upscale showroom and amenities. (Feel free to add to this if I missed any.)
The relationship between Acura corporate and its dealers needs to be reviewed and improved in order for Acura to become competitive, part of which has to start with the dealers themselves. I remember my uncle told me that, in the late 70s and early 80s when gas was expensive, Japanese cars were selling briskly because US automakers did not have the technology to make fuel efficient cars. So, when my uncle went to Honda dealers looking to buy an Accord or Civic, he was not treated with respect because the dealers believed that those cars would sell themselves (and they did).
While I do not have any empirical facts, I believe many Acura dealers now are also Honda dealers or they have been "promoted" to sell the more upscale brand. Yet, some Acura dealers have not changed their attitude in dealing with customers even though times have changed and consumers are more knowledgeable. This hurts Acura. OTOH, it appears that Lexus (and even Infitiniti) has educated its dealers and required them to take on a much better attitude when dealing with customers, both in terms of sale and post-sale efforts.
It is also interesting to note, and I think we all agree, that most Acura buyers are value-minded individuals, as we are quite price sensitive. This is not to say that we are "cheap", but that we are financially prudent in making our purchases. As we all know with respect to wrist watches, a Timex is as reliable as a Rolex, but there is a distinct price difference between them and how customers are treated. Most Acura buyers, however, are more akin to Seiko watch buyers, who want something in between, and perhaps the "best" of both worlds, ie. something that is reliable, stylish (can be subjective), adequate luxury/performance, BUT THE PRICE MUST BE RIGHT. So, what is Acura to do in the future, in light of its "traditional" customer base? Does it want to compete with the prestigious nameplates to woo the Rolex buyers or should it just settle for the Seiko buyers? You decide ... and hopefully Acura will respond.
01-06-2007, 11:16 AM
#77
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I was with someone who owned an older 7-series. I heard questions like this about the RL:
~ Does it have cooled seats? No.
~ Does it have massaging seats? No.
~ Does it have heated rear seats? No.
~ Does it have a heated steering wheel? No.
~ Can I synch my phone's address book? Only the 07 and only a few phones.
~ Why does it feel that it has no power? It's not a V8.
~ Do the rear seats recline? No.
~ Does it have front parking sensors? No.
After all that I felt a little dejected.
~ Does it have cooled seats? No.
~ Does it have massaging seats? No.
~ Does it have heated rear seats? No.
~ Does it have a heated steering wheel? No.
~ Can I synch my phone's address book? Only the 07 and only a few phones.
~ Why does it feel that it has no power? It's not a V8.
~ Do the rear seats recline? No.
~ Does it have front parking sensors? No.
After all that I felt a little dejected.
01-06-2007, 11:22 AM
#78
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I think what Acura/Honda and the dealers need to do is sit down and come up with a strategy of MUTUAL understanding.
Dealers need to keep on top of potential RL customers that choose to go to other brands, and figure out why they did that. An unofficial survey if you will. Then they can go to Honda with what Acura needs and have some information to back it up. Then as long as Honda respects this and models their products for what customers want via the dealers observations, then dealers will be more willing to invest in a copmany that is willing to invest in them and indirectly what customers want.
but as long as honda holds out on this "I am holier than thou" attitude to both its acura dealers and indirectly its customers, then I don't see them succeeding in the $50k and up range.
Dealers need to keep on top of potential RL customers that choose to go to other brands, and figure out why they did that. An unofficial survey if you will. Then they can go to Honda with what Acura needs and have some information to back it up. Then as long as Honda respects this and models their products for what customers want via the dealers observations, then dealers will be more willing to invest in a copmany that is willing to invest in them and indirectly what customers want.
but as long as honda holds out on this "I am holier than thou" attitude to both its acura dealers and indirectly its customers, then I don't see them succeeding in the $50k and up range.
01-06-2007, 11:40 AM
#79
Three Wheelin'
Originally Posted by CL6
I was with someone who owned an older 7-series. I heard questions like this about the RL:
~ Does it have cooled seats? No.
~ Does it have massaging seats? No.
~ Does it have heated rear seats? No.
~ Does it have a heated steering wheel? No.
~ Can I synch my phone's address book? Only the 07 and only a few phones.
~ Why does it feel that it has no power? It's not a V8.
~ Do the rear seats recline? No.
~ Does it have front parking sensors? No.
After all that I felt a little dejected.
~ Does it have cooled seats? No.
~ Does it have massaging seats? No.
~ Does it have heated rear seats? No.
~ Does it have a heated steering wheel? No.
~ Can I synch my phone's address book? Only the 07 and only a few phones.
~ Why does it feel that it has no power? It's not a V8.
~ Do the rear seats recline? No.
~ Does it have front parking sensors? No.
After all that I felt a little dejected.
01-06-2007, 11:42 AM
#80
Three Wheelin'
Has it occurred to anyone that maybe Honda isn't all that pressed about the over $50K market? Maybe it is just a low priority for them. Maybe they would rather emphasize the small jet market than the luxury car market.