another oldguy

OK, this is not specific to the RDX, so apologies if I am out of line. But this seems to be a very active board and the RDX is one of the vehicles that I'm considering. In any case, it's about what I regard as a scam, which Acura dealers may or may not engage in. (I hope not).

I was looking at a Volvo XC60 today, and noticed on the sticker a $450 fee relating to "green" something. When I asked the salesman what it referred to he replied that it was for etching of VIN numbers on various body panels, and claimed that it was "mandatory". Apparently nitrogen-filled tires are also "mandatory" (but that the nitro is included in the $450 cost).

I'm in Canada, but I am quite certain that there is no requirement to have additional VIN numbers etched onto the car after it leaves the factory.

I quite liked the car, but if this is the way the dealer does business I think that I ought to give it a pass.

Do many dealers engage in this scam of making aftermarket options "mandatory"?

geocord

It's really dealer by dealer. The Acura dealer I bought from did not have any of this and from what I can remember none of the Acura dealers I looked at in the Chicago area did this. Honda is very big on these "standard dealer packages" and the Hyundai dealers around here seem to like it to. Actually, I don't see many premium or luxury car dealers doing it now that I think about it.

mdfree

Tell them you won't pay for it. They tried to charge me for the N2 option, I said no.

another oldguy

Well, I guess that if whatever car I decide that I want has "mandatory options" then I'll negotiate the best deal that I can, and then at the very last moment announce that they will have to deduct the charge for the etching and the nitrogen. It occurs to me that I ought to have asked the salesman to show me the etchings on the car in the showroom, or on one of the new cars on the lot (insofar as I expect that the etching is done after the sale... assuming that the sucker.. er... buyer agreed to it).

On the other hand, I dislike being lied to, and given that the salesman inferred that it was a gov't regulation I would be tempted to avoid this dealer on principal.

There are some other Volvo dealers nearby. Of course, it is my understanding that half of the import dealers in town are owned by one guy, so I may encounter this elsewhere.

BTW,

johnrh

In my opinion paying for nitrogen only in the tires is a scam ... I seem to recall that the air we breathe is 85% nitrogen already

johnrh

Also found this in case you live in Ontario:

The Consumer Protection Act (2002) prohibits motor vehicle dealers from taking payment for unsolicited goods and services including add-ons or upsells like window etching. The dealer can offer them but he cannot demand payment unless you have agreed to the service and its cost. Add-ons cannot be deemed mandatory, you must be given an opportunity to decline them. Contact the dealer for a full refund. Failing this request assistance from the Ontario Motor Vehicle Industry Council (OMVIC).

dpskgiles

Local Acura dealer tried to charge $55.00 for the nitro pre-charge in the tires. They "waived" the charge after a lot of pressing on my part. I was also able to get 5 years worth of oil changes because the car was delivered later than they initially promised. While I really like my Acura - dealers are dealers and you have to watch all of them like a hawk.

CoachRick

Might depend on where you breathe; but I was taught 78-79% There is a rumor that race cars use nitrogen because it runs cooler...the rest of us 'might' benefit somehow...some suggestion that nitrogen leaks more slowly compared to atmosphere-type air---more important in a 120psi bicycle tire, I reckon. As I recall, Costco uses nitrogen to fill new tires as a matter of course. Is it a scam to charge for it?...kinda sorta

2014RDX

Pure nitrogen is used because the pressure doesn't fluctuate with changing temperatures. This is the reason it is used in airplane tires. It is a gimmick to charge more in cars. As long as one keeps up on their maintenance, and with all cars now having TPMS, it is basically worthless.

geocord

Well, two out of my three vehicles don't have TPMS. And just because a car has TPMS doesn't change anything. Checking the tires for air and having to add air are two different things unless you have an air compressor hand especially when it's -30 wind chill. Nitro, in my experience,(notice I say experience and not just guessing) needs less frequent "topping off". I have Costco tires on two of my three vehicles and it was a supplied "free" with the tires at Costco. Now, I assume I paid for it in some manner with the tires but Costco does it automatically. I noticed a drastic change in how often I have to actually top off my tires. One set of tires is BF Goodrich and the other is Michelein. I've read quite a bit about the nitro and have decided as long as it doesn't cost or the cost is minimal, I want it.

1. Less leakage around the rim due to less moisture build up and less corrision at the rim.
2. Less flucuation due to extreme temps.
3. Nitro molecules are larger and don't seep through the seem or even the rubber as easily as an oxygen molecule.
4. Supposedly the run a bit cooler which can't be bad thing IMO.

Downsides?
Well, like I said, as long as it doesn't cost much I can't really find any. Some will say the air we breathe is already 80% nitrogen. Yeah, so what? The other 20% is still there. There is a reason airliners and race cars use it. The application for us "civilians" may be less but the principles still apply. If it's free or cheap I say go for it. If someone wants to charge you $40+ for it......it's not worth it.

Mike_TX

If you like the "idea" of nitrogen in your tires, go for it. But it's a scam on several levels.

1. As someone already pointed out, the atmosphere is already about 78% nitrogen, so even if* you could fill your tires with pure nitrogen, you're increasing the nitrogen content by only about 22%.

2. * The "if" is that to actually fill your tires with 100% nitrogen, those tires would have to be purged of all atmospheric air, then filled inside a sealed nitrogen chamber - otherwise, there's no way to keep out the "regular" air all around us.

3. Dealers simply remove the valve stem to remove air from the tires, then refill with nitrogen. But even when the air is "removed", it still remains in the tire at atmospheric pressure, which is roughly 14.7 psi.

In other words, removing the valve stem just equalizes the pressure inside the tire with that outside the tire. So, at a filled pressure of 32 psi, you are getting only about 17 psi of nitrogen, or about 54% of the total fill. Since nitrogen already comprises 78% of the air, all you've done is to increase the nitrogen content in the tire by a few psi. Hardly enough to notice.

I've done the nitrogen thing (at no cost to me), and I could tell no difference in heat fluctuation or pressure retention. None.

In short, nitrogen in car tires is total BS, and anyone actually paying for it is being suckered.

YeuEmMaiMai

^ it's called a profit stream aka revenue generator...

2014RDX

I'm not guessing either. I've worked in the tire and service industry for 8 years of my life (I no longer do). Airplanes use nitrogen because they could take off in an area with an ambient temperature of 90, and land in an area with a temperature of zero. Nitrogen will not change pressures due to ambient temperature. That is the only reason it is used.

Race cars use it because their tires reach temperatures that street tires will never achieve, and nitrogen is more likely to maintain a constant pressure. Tire manufacturers do know that temperature affects pressure. This is why you always check your tires cold. If max pressure for a tire is 40lbs, it could easily hit 45-50lbs when hot, and is perfectly safe. It's designed into the tire. This is why there is a temperature rating on the sidewall of your tire.

Nitrogen is not less likely to leak around a rim. Cleaning the bead area when the tires are installed stops this. As I stated, with cars now having TPMS, it is far less likely that a person will allow their air pressure to stay below safe levels because they have to look at the light every time they get in their car, so they adjust the pressure.

Nitrogen is fine if it's included for free, but it's a sucker move to pay for it. Shops use it to put off the aura that they're better than the guy down the street, and some people will buy into their gimmick.

thephantom

78.09%, but close enough.

thephantom

I've had nitrogen in my tires in the past and I didn't really notice improvements of any sort. One thing I did feel was the steering feel was a bit light, which I didn't like.

You should ask the salesman when he said "mandatory", does he mean dealer mandated or government mandated.

another oldguy

I am well aware that there is no government mandate, and indeed I've learned from a poster above (yes, I'm in Ontario) that the law specifically prohibits dealers from requiring consumers to pay these charges. As far as asking the salesman, I had also asked him if the side windows were laminated glass and he assured me that they were.... which I am 99.99% sure is BS.

At least I won't be feeling badly about taking up his time and then buying from someone else.

This has been a very informative thread. I had not considered the effect of temperature on tire pressure, but as it happens I got a tire pressure warning on the Fusion a week or so ago, and assuming that I had a slow leak I pumped some more air in figuring that in a few days the warning would reappear, but it has not. Now that I think about it, the temperature on the day that I got the warning was -23C (-10 in USA degrees) which was exceptionally cold even here.

geocord

Here's a good article on nitrogen vs. air from Popular Mechanics. I have personally noticed with three different cars that I have had to inflate the tires much less with the nitrogen. This is just my experience. YMMV obviously. But I would not call anyone a sucker unless you really know what you're talking about versus throwing out some logic and calling it science.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars...stions/4302788

YeuEmMaiMai

^ problem is that your so called savings will never = what you spend. notice how no example of fuel saving figures or maintenance saving figures were provided.

Been driving 30 years and if you use a place like discount tire to buy your tires, you drive in and they will inspect and adjust and rotate for FREE.

geocord

Please point out where I said I saved anything but the time and effort in topping off the air in my tires. I also said I used Costco and the nitro was included. I so seldom have to add air that is easy to have it done when I visit Costco. I simply noticed after having it that I drastically reduced the number of times per year that I have to top off. The rest of the attributes the article mentions I have no real way to measure. And Ive been driving a lot longer than you if that makes any difference whatsoever.

YeuEmMaiMai

you said it was a good article, I say it's crap because they (the article) use some truth but never back it up with realized savings. They (the article) say you will have some savings but again never back it up...

so, go a head, pay $XX a tire and I will continue to stop by Discount once a month and have them check and fill for free if needed. Takes less than 5 minutes and the service is actually included in the price of the tires...

geocord

I guess you don't read or at least comprehend very well. I pay no more and spend no more time for the nitro and free fill at Costco than you do at Discount.

YeuEmMaiMai

lets talk about comprehension fail....

Cosco tires are only available to people who are members and that requires a subscription fee in addition to the cost of the tires. The price of admission is $55 to $110 a year (from their website). So stating that something is free when it really isn't is fail on your part. In addition you have to purchase new tires to get that service, they will not do it for existing customers who did not purchase tires from them (again, from their website).

Discount Tire will check anyone's fires and top them off for FREE. NO PURCHASE required. IF you buy a set, then lifetime rotation is included. Again no membership fee required.

so want to try again?

geocord

No, you got me. I didn't realize Costco had a price of admission. LOL. I guess Discount doesn't include all that free stuff in overall pricing structure. Must be nice to live in a fantasy world. Have fun at Discount.