5 Speed Auto Country of Origin is Japan
09-23-2004, 04:25 PM
#1
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5 Speed Auto Country of Origin is Japan
Sorry Dead-Fox, but it looks like some of our CL's have Japan sourced trannies.http://www.acura-cl.com/forums/showp...3&postcount=51
09-23-2004, 04:27 PM
#2
Senior Moderator
who didn't know that
09-23-2004, 04:39 PM
#5
Racer
allenn- it doesn't take me too long to find more info with google's help!
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...32/ai_18420190
now as to the reason it says "Japan" for the tranny- I have no clue why it says that on the window sticker...
edit-- I will perhaps concede that some of ours (early ones?) were made in JAPAN... If so- maybe these would be the few with no problems?
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...32/ai_18420190
Already a year ahead in its drive to build 720,000 cars in Ohio and Ontario, Honda North America Inc. is spending $200 million to raise its 1998 target for engine production from 750,000 to 900,000 a year at its Anna, OH, engine plant.
The Anna engine expansion will include the new 3L V-6 engine being introduced this fall in the Acura CL. and an ultra-low emission vehicle (ULEV) to debut in the 1998 model year for sale in California.
The Anna engine expansion will include the new 3L V-6 engine being introduced this fall in the Acura CL. and an ultra-low emission vehicle (ULEV) to debut in the 1998 model year for sale in California.
edit-- I will perhaps concede that some of ours (early ones?) were made in JAPAN... If so- maybe these would be the few with no problems?
09-23-2004, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Dead-Fox
allenn- ......now as to the reason it says "Japan" for the tranny- I have no clue why it says that on the window sticker...
edit-- I will perhaps concede that some of ours (early ones?) were made in JAPAN... If so- maybe these would be the few with no problems?
edit-- I will perhaps concede that some of ours (early ones?) were made in JAPAN... If so- maybe these would be the few with no problems?
I Googled earlier trying to find the article that stated the tranny was the only part for the CL from Japan and saw the info at the link you listed as well as others. This is very confusing.My original trans failed at 48000 miles. At 60000 miles, all motor and tran mounts failed. At 64000 miles my rear brake rotors warped for the second time. The fronts warped at 20,000 and 40000. Keep in mind, I do not hot rod this car. I never use the select shifter and it remains in D5 when not backing up.
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09-23-2004, 05:37 PM
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Japan made or NOT ,the 5 spd auto is defective ...Mine said japan made and 2 catostrophic failures.
From my own expierience Japna or USA made tranny's are defective.
From my own expierience Japna or USA made tranny's are defective.
09-23-2004, 07:06 PM
#11
Suzuka Master
The parts inside the tranny may come from Japan, but the BULK of the units were/are assembled in Ohio.
And, you might want to look at the following:
http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/buspubs/madeusa.htm
AND
Section 32304. Passenger motor vehicle country of origin labeling
(a) Definitions. - In this section -
(1) ''allied supplier'' means a supplier of passenger motor
vehicle equipment that is wholly owned by the manufacturer, or if
a joint venture vehicle assembly arrangement, a supplier that is
wholly owned by one member of the joint venture arrangement.
(2)(A) ''carline'' -
(i) means a name given a group of passenger motor vehicles
that has a degree of commonality in construction such as body
and chassis;
(ii) does not consider a level of decor or opulence; and
(iii) except for light duty trucks, is not generally
distinguished by characteristics such as roof line, number of
doors, seats, or windows; and
(B) light duty trucks are different carlines than passenger
motor vehicles.
(3) ''country of origin'', when referring to the origin of an
engine or transmission, means the country from which the largest
share of the dollar value added to an engine or transmission has
originated -
(A) with the United States and Canada treated as separate
countries; and
(B) the estimate of the percentage of the dollar value shall
be based on the purchase price of direct materials, as received
at individual engine or transmission plants, of engines of the
same displacement and transmissions of the same transmission
type, plus the assembly and labor costs incurred for the final
assembly of such engines and transmissions.
(4) ''dealer'' means a person residing or located in the United
States, including the District of Columbia or a territory or
possession of the United States, and engaged in selling or
distributing new passenger motor vehicles to the ultimate
purchaser.
(5) ''final assembly place'' means the plant, factory, or other
place at which a new passenger motor vehicle is produced or
assembled by a manufacturer, and from which the vehicle is
delivered to a dealer or importer with all component parts
necessary for the mechanical operation of the vehicle included
with the vehicle, whether or not the component parts are
permanently installed in or on the vehicle. Such term does not
include facilities for engine and transmission fabrication and
assembly and the facilities for fabrication of motor vehicle
equipment component parts which are produced at the same final
assembly place using forming processes such as stamping,
machining, or molding processes.
(6) ''foreign content'' means passenger motor vehicle equipment
that is not of United States/Canadian origin.
(7) ''manufacturer'' means a person -
(A) engaged in manufacturing or assembling new passenger
motor vehicles;
(B) importing new passenger motor vehicles for resale; or
(C) acting for and under the control of such a manufacturer,
assembler, or importer in connection with the distribution of
new passenger motor vehicles.
(8) ''new passenger motor vehicle'' means a passenger motor
vehicle for which a manufacturer, distributor, or dealer has
never transferred the equitable or legal title to the vehicle to
an ultimate purchaser.
(9) ''of United States/Canadian origin'', when referring to
passenger motor vehicle equipment, means -
(A) for an outside supplier -
(i) the full purchase price of passenger motor vehicle
equipment whose purchase price contains at least 70 percent
value added in the United States and Canada; or
(ii) that portion of the purchase price of passenger motor
vehicle equipment containing less than 70 percent value added
in the United States and Canada that is attributable to the
percent value added in the United States and Canada when such
percent is expressed to the nearest 5 percent; and
(B) for an allied supplier, that part of the individual
passenger motor vehicle equipment whose purchase price the
manufacturer determines remains after subtracting the total of
the purchase prices of all material of foreign content
purchased from outside suppliers, with the determination of the
United States/Canadian origin or of the foreign content from
outside suppliers being consistent with subclause (A) of this
clause.
(10) ''outside supplier'' means a supplier of passenger motor
vehicle equipment to a manufacturer's allied supplier, or a
person other than an allied supplier, who ships directly to the
manufacturer's final assembly place.
(11) ''passenger motor vehicle'' has the same meaning given
that term in section 32101(10) of this title, except that it
includes any multi-purpose vehicle or light duty truck when that
vehicle or truck is rated at not more than 8,500 pounds gross
vehicle weight.
(12) ''passenger motor vehicle equipment'' -
(A) means a system, subassembly, or component received at the
final vehicle assembly place for installation on, or attachment
to, a passenger motor vehicle at the time of its first shipment
by the manufacturer to a dealer for sale to an ultimate
purchaser; but
(B) does not include minor parts (including nuts, bolts,
clips, screws, pins, braces, and other attachment hardware) and
other similar items the Secretary of Transportation may
prescribe by regulation after consulting with manufacturers and
labor.
(13) ''percentage (by value)'', when referring to passenger
motor vehicle equipment of United States/Canadian origin, means
the percentage remaining after subtracting the percentage (by
value) of passenger motor vehicle equipment that is not of United
States/Canadian origin that will be installed or included on
those vehicles produced in a carline, from 100 percent -
(A) with value being expressed in terms of the purchase
price; and
(B) for outside suppliers and allied suppliers, the value
used is the purchase price of the equipment paid at the final
assembly place.
(14) ''State'' means a State of the United States, the District
of Columbia, Puerto Rico, the Northern Mariana Islands, Guam,
American Samoa, and the Virgin Islands.
(15) ''value added in the United States and Canada'' means a
percentage determined by subtracting the total purchase price of
foreign content from the total purchase price, and dividing the
remainder by the total purchase price, excluding costs incurred
or profits made at the final assembly place and beyond (including
advertising, assembly, labor, interest payments, and profits),
with the following groupings being used:
(A) engines of same displacement produced at the same plant.
(B) transmissions of the same type produced at the same
plant.
(b) Manufacturer Requirement. - (1) Each manufacturer of a new
passenger motor vehicle manufactured after September 30, 1994, and
distributed in commerce for sale in the United States, shall
establish each year for each model year and cause to be attached in
a prominent place on each of those vehicles, at least one label.
The label shall contain the following information:
(A) the percentage (by value) of passenger motor vehicle
equipment of United States/Canadian origin installed on vehicles
in the carline to which that vehicle belongs, identified by the
words ''U.S./Canadian content''.
(B) the final assembly place for that vehicle by city, State
(where appropriate) and country.
(C) if at least 15 percent (by value) of equipment installed on
passenger motor vehicles in a carline originated in any country
other than the United States and Canada, the names of at least
the 2 countries in which the greatest amount (by value) of that
equipment originated and the percentage (by value) of the
equipment originating in each country.
(D) the country of origin of the engine and the transmission
for each vehicle.
(2) At the beginning of each model year, each manufacturer shall
establish the percentages required for each carline to be indicated
on the label under this subsection. Those percentages are
applicable to that carline for the entire model year. A
manufacturer may round those percentages to the nearest 5 percent.
(3) A manufacturer complying with the requirement of paragraph
(1)(B) of this subsection satisfies the disclosure requirement of
section 3(b) of the Automobile Information Disclosure Act (15
U.S.C. 1232(b)).
(c) Vehicle Content Percentage by Assembly Plant. - A
manufacturer may display separately on the label required by
subsection (b) the domestic content of a vehicle based on the
assembly plant. Such display shall occur after the matter required
to be in the label by subsection (b)(1)(A).
(d) Value Added Determination. - If a manufacturer or allied
supplier requests information in a timely manner from one or more
of its outside suppliers concerning the United States/Canadian
content of particular equipment, but does not receive that
information despite a good faith effort to obtain it, the
manufacturer or allied supplier may make its own good faith value
added determinations, subject to the following:
(1) The manufacturer or allied supplier shall make the same
value added determinations as would be made by the outside
supplier, that is, whether 70 percent or more of the value of
equipment is added in the United States and/or Canada.
(2) The manufacturer or allied supplier shall consider the
amount of value added and the location in which the value was
added for all of the stages that the outside supplier would be
required to consider.
(3) The manufacturer or allied supplier may determine that the
value added in the United States and/or Canada is 70 percent or
more only if it has a good faith basis to make that
determination.
(4) A manufacturer and its allied suppliers may, on a combined
basis, make value added determinations for no more than 10
percent, by value, of a carline's total parts content from
outside suppliers.
(5) Value added determinations made by a manufacturer or allied
supplier under this paragraph shall have the same effect as if
they were made by the outside supplier.
(6) This provision does not affect the obligation of outside
suppliers to provide the requested information.
(e) Small Parts. - The country of origin of nuts, bolts, clips,
screws, pins, braces, gasoline, oil, blackout, phosphate rinse,
windshield washer fluid, fasteners, tire assembly fluid, rivets,
adhesives, and grommets, of any system, subassembly, or component
installed in a vehicle shall be considered to be the country in
which such parts were included in the final assembly of such
vehicle.
(f) Dealer Requirement. - Each dealer engaged in the sale or
distribution of a new passenger motor vehicle manufactured after
September 30, 1994, shall cause to be maintained on that vehicle
the label required to be attached to that vehicle under subsection
(b) of this section.
(g) Form and Content of Label. - The Secretary of Transportation
shall prescribe by regulation the form and content of the label
required under subsection (b) of this section and the manner and
location in which the label is attached. The Secretary shall
permit a manufacturer to comply with this section by allowing the
manufacturer to disclose the information required under subsection
(b)(1) on the label required by section 3 of the Automobile
Information Disclosure Act (15 U.S.C. 1232), on the label required
by section 32908 of this title, or on a separate label that is
readily visible. A manufacturer may add to the label required
under subsection (b) a line stating the country in which vehicle
assembly was completed.
(h) Regulations. - In consultation with the Secretaries of
Commerce and the Treasury, the Secretary of Transportation shall
prescribe regulations necessary to carry out this section,
including regulations establishing a procedure to verify the label
information required under subsection (b)(1) of this section.
Those regulations shall provide the ultimate purchaser of a new
passenger motor vehicle with the best and most understandable
information possible about the foreign content and United
States/Canadian origin of the equipment of the vehicles without
imposing costly and unnecessary burdens on the manufacturers. The
Secretary of Transportation shall prescribe the regulations
promptly to provide adequate lead time for each manufacturer to
comply with this section. The regulations shall include provisions
applicable to outside suppliers and allied suppliers to require
those suppliers to certify whether passenger motor vehicle
equipment provided by those suppliers is of United States origin,
of United States/Canadian origin, or of foreign content and to
provide other information the Secretary of Transportation decides
is necessary to allow each manufacturer to comply reasonably with
this section and to rely on that certification and information.
(i) Preemption. - (1) When a label content requirement prescribed
under this section is in effect, a State or a political subdivision
of a State may not adopt or enforce a law or regulation related to
the content of vehicles covered by a requirement under this
section.
(2) A State or a political subdivision of a State may prescribe
requirements related to the content of passenger motor vehicles
obtained for its own use.
The materials inside the transmission, and this would include the non-friction material related parts, would constitute that largest materials cost for the transmission.
If you look at the definition above, it is not clear that the transmission was 100% Japanese. (At least not to me).
Also, depending on the date, time, and other factors, it is very well possible that "some" of the cars got trannies from Japan. The Honda Inspire is basically a Japanese TL, and the NHTSA report clearly mentioned Japanese clutch pack material...
And, you might want to look at the following:
http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/buspubs/madeusa.htm
AND
Section 32304. Passenger motor vehicle country of origin labeling
(a) Definitions. - In this section -
(1) ''allied supplier'' means a supplier of passenger motor
vehicle equipment that is wholly owned by the manufacturer, or if
a joint venture vehicle assembly arrangement, a supplier that is
wholly owned by one member of the joint venture arrangement.
(2)(A) ''carline'' -
(i) means a name given a group of passenger motor vehicles
that has a degree of commonality in construction such as body
and chassis;
(ii) does not consider a level of decor or opulence; and
(iii) except for light duty trucks, is not generally
distinguished by characteristics such as roof line, number of
doors, seats, or windows; and
(B) light duty trucks are different carlines than passenger
motor vehicles.
(3) ''country of origin'', when referring to the origin of an
engine or transmission, means the country from which the largest
share of the dollar value added to an engine or transmission has
originated -
(A) with the United States and Canada treated as separate
countries; and
(B) the estimate of the percentage of the dollar value shall
be based on the purchase price of direct materials, as received
at individual engine or transmission plants, of engines of the
same displacement and transmissions of the same transmission
type, plus the assembly and labor costs incurred for the final
assembly of such engines and transmissions.
(4) ''dealer'' means a person residing or located in the United
States, including the District of Columbia or a territory or
possession of the United States, and engaged in selling or
distributing new passenger motor vehicles to the ultimate
purchaser.
(5) ''final assembly place'' means the plant, factory, or other
place at which a new passenger motor vehicle is produced or
assembled by a manufacturer, and from which the vehicle is
delivered to a dealer or importer with all component parts
necessary for the mechanical operation of the vehicle included
with the vehicle, whether or not the component parts are
permanently installed in or on the vehicle. Such term does not
include facilities for engine and transmission fabrication and
assembly and the facilities for fabrication of motor vehicle
equipment component parts which are produced at the same final
assembly place using forming processes such as stamping,
machining, or molding processes.
(6) ''foreign content'' means passenger motor vehicle equipment
that is not of United States/Canadian origin.
(7) ''manufacturer'' means a person -
(A) engaged in manufacturing or assembling new passenger
motor vehicles;
(B) importing new passenger motor vehicles for resale; or
(C) acting for and under the control of such a manufacturer,
assembler, or importer in connection with the distribution of
new passenger motor vehicles.
(8) ''new passenger motor vehicle'' means a passenger motor
vehicle for which a manufacturer, distributor, or dealer has
never transferred the equitable or legal title to the vehicle to
an ultimate purchaser.
(9) ''of United States/Canadian origin'', when referring to
passenger motor vehicle equipment, means -
(A) for an outside supplier -
(i) the full purchase price of passenger motor vehicle
equipment whose purchase price contains at least 70 percent
value added in the United States and Canada; or
(ii) that portion of the purchase price of passenger motor
vehicle equipment containing less than 70 percent value added
in the United States and Canada that is attributable to the
percent value added in the United States and Canada when such
percent is expressed to the nearest 5 percent; and
(B) for an allied supplier, that part of the individual
passenger motor vehicle equipment whose purchase price the
manufacturer determines remains after subtracting the total of
the purchase prices of all material of foreign content
purchased from outside suppliers, with the determination of the
United States/Canadian origin or of the foreign content from
outside suppliers being consistent with subclause (A) of this
clause.
(10) ''outside supplier'' means a supplier of passenger motor
vehicle equipment to a manufacturer's allied supplier, or a
person other than an allied supplier, who ships directly to the
manufacturer's final assembly place.
(11) ''passenger motor vehicle'' has the same meaning given
that term in section 32101(10) of this title, except that it
includes any multi-purpose vehicle or light duty truck when that
vehicle or truck is rated at not more than 8,500 pounds gross
vehicle weight.
(12) ''passenger motor vehicle equipment'' -
(A) means a system, subassembly, or component received at the
final vehicle assembly place for installation on, or attachment
to, a passenger motor vehicle at the time of its first shipment
by the manufacturer to a dealer for sale to an ultimate
purchaser; but
(B) does not include minor parts (including nuts, bolts,
clips, screws, pins, braces, and other attachment hardware) and
other similar items the Secretary of Transportation may
prescribe by regulation after consulting with manufacturers and
labor.
(13) ''percentage (by value)'', when referring to passenger
motor vehicle equipment of United States/Canadian origin, means
the percentage remaining after subtracting the percentage (by
value) of passenger motor vehicle equipment that is not of United
States/Canadian origin that will be installed or included on
those vehicles produced in a carline, from 100 percent -
(A) with value being expressed in terms of the purchase
price; and
(B) for outside suppliers and allied suppliers, the value
used is the purchase price of the equipment paid at the final
assembly place.
(14) ''State'' means a State of the United States, the District
of Columbia, Puerto Rico, the Northern Mariana Islands, Guam,
American Samoa, and the Virgin Islands.
(15) ''value added in the United States and Canada'' means a
percentage determined by subtracting the total purchase price of
foreign content from the total purchase price, and dividing the
remainder by the total purchase price, excluding costs incurred
or profits made at the final assembly place and beyond (including
advertising, assembly, labor, interest payments, and profits),
with the following groupings being used:
(A) engines of same displacement produced at the same plant.
(B) transmissions of the same type produced at the same
plant.
(b) Manufacturer Requirement. - (1) Each manufacturer of a new
passenger motor vehicle manufactured after September 30, 1994, and
distributed in commerce for sale in the United States, shall
establish each year for each model year and cause to be attached in
a prominent place on each of those vehicles, at least one label.
The label shall contain the following information:
(A) the percentage (by value) of passenger motor vehicle
equipment of United States/Canadian origin installed on vehicles
in the carline to which that vehicle belongs, identified by the
words ''U.S./Canadian content''.
(B) the final assembly place for that vehicle by city, State
(where appropriate) and country.
(C) if at least 15 percent (by value) of equipment installed on
passenger motor vehicles in a carline originated in any country
other than the United States and Canada, the names of at least
the 2 countries in which the greatest amount (by value) of that
equipment originated and the percentage (by value) of the
equipment originating in each country.
(D) the country of origin of the engine and the transmission
for each vehicle.
(2) At the beginning of each model year, each manufacturer shall
establish the percentages required for each carline to be indicated
on the label under this subsection. Those percentages are
applicable to that carline for the entire model year. A
manufacturer may round those percentages to the nearest 5 percent.
(3) A manufacturer complying with the requirement of paragraph
(1)(B) of this subsection satisfies the disclosure requirement of
section 3(b) of the Automobile Information Disclosure Act (15
U.S.C. 1232(b)).
(c) Vehicle Content Percentage by Assembly Plant. - A
manufacturer may display separately on the label required by
subsection (b) the domestic content of a vehicle based on the
assembly plant. Such display shall occur after the matter required
to be in the label by subsection (b)(1)(A).
(d) Value Added Determination. - If a manufacturer or allied
supplier requests information in a timely manner from one or more
of its outside suppliers concerning the United States/Canadian
content of particular equipment, but does not receive that
information despite a good faith effort to obtain it, the
manufacturer or allied supplier may make its own good faith value
added determinations, subject to the following:
(1) The manufacturer or allied supplier shall make the same
value added determinations as would be made by the outside
supplier, that is, whether 70 percent or more of the value of
equipment is added in the United States and/or Canada.
(2) The manufacturer or allied supplier shall consider the
amount of value added and the location in which the value was
added for all of the stages that the outside supplier would be
required to consider.
(3) The manufacturer or allied supplier may determine that the
value added in the United States and/or Canada is 70 percent or
more only if it has a good faith basis to make that
determination.
(4) A manufacturer and its allied suppliers may, on a combined
basis, make value added determinations for no more than 10
percent, by value, of a carline's total parts content from
outside suppliers.
(5) Value added determinations made by a manufacturer or allied
supplier under this paragraph shall have the same effect as if
they were made by the outside supplier.
(6) This provision does not affect the obligation of outside
suppliers to provide the requested information.
(e) Small Parts. - The country of origin of nuts, bolts, clips,
screws, pins, braces, gasoline, oil, blackout, phosphate rinse,
windshield washer fluid, fasteners, tire assembly fluid, rivets,
adhesives, and grommets, of any system, subassembly, or component
installed in a vehicle shall be considered to be the country in
which such parts were included in the final assembly of such
vehicle.
(f) Dealer Requirement. - Each dealer engaged in the sale or
distribution of a new passenger motor vehicle manufactured after
September 30, 1994, shall cause to be maintained on that vehicle
the label required to be attached to that vehicle under subsection
(b) of this section.
(g) Form and Content of Label. - The Secretary of Transportation
shall prescribe by regulation the form and content of the label
required under subsection (b) of this section and the manner and
location in which the label is attached. The Secretary shall
permit a manufacturer to comply with this section by allowing the
manufacturer to disclose the information required under subsection
(b)(1) on the label required by section 3 of the Automobile
Information Disclosure Act (15 U.S.C. 1232), on the label required
by section 32908 of this title, or on a separate label that is
readily visible. A manufacturer may add to the label required
under subsection (b) a line stating the country in which vehicle
assembly was completed.
(h) Regulations. - In consultation with the Secretaries of
Commerce and the Treasury, the Secretary of Transportation shall
prescribe regulations necessary to carry out this section,
including regulations establishing a procedure to verify the label
information required under subsection (b)(1) of this section.
Those regulations shall provide the ultimate purchaser of a new
passenger motor vehicle with the best and most understandable
information possible about the foreign content and United
States/Canadian origin of the equipment of the vehicles without
imposing costly and unnecessary burdens on the manufacturers. The
Secretary of Transportation shall prescribe the regulations
promptly to provide adequate lead time for each manufacturer to
comply with this section. The regulations shall include provisions
applicable to outside suppliers and allied suppliers to require
those suppliers to certify whether passenger motor vehicle
equipment provided by those suppliers is of United States origin,
of United States/Canadian origin, or of foreign content and to
provide other information the Secretary of Transportation decides
is necessary to allow each manufacturer to comply reasonably with
this section and to rely on that certification and information.
(i) Preemption. - (1) When a label content requirement prescribed
under this section is in effect, a State or a political subdivision
of a State may not adopt or enforce a law or regulation related to
the content of vehicles covered by a requirement under this
section.
(2) A State or a political subdivision of a State may prescribe
requirements related to the content of passenger motor vehicles
obtained for its own use.
If you look at the definition above, it is not clear that the transmission was 100% Japanese. (At least not to me).
Also, depending on the date, time, and other factors, it is very well possible that "some" of the cars got trannies from Japan. The Honda Inspire is basically a Japanese TL, and the NHTSA report clearly mentioned Japanese clutch pack material...
09-24-2004, 04:52 PM
#13
Instructor
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Georgia
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Are you saying that the window sticker is incorrect?
Originally Posted by aclura
Top That!
American Automobile Labeling Act — Requires that each automobile manufactured on or after October 1, 1994, for sale in the U.S. beara label disclosing where the car was assembled, the percentage of equipment that originated in the U.S. and Canada, and the country of origin of the engine and transmission. Any representation that a car marketer makes that is required by the AALA is exempt from the Commission’s policy. When a company makes claims in advertising or promotional materials that go beyond the AALA requirements, it will be held to the Commission’s standard. For more information, call the
Consumer Programs Division of the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (202-366-0846).
It seems to me that the window sticker on my CL-S clearly states that the trans is from Japan, see the following link:
http://www.acura-cl.com/forums/show...93&postcount=51
Do you have the original window sticker for your CL's? Is it possible that the tranny's in the early CL's came from Japan? I talked to American Honda about my window sticker, and they said that my original trans originated in Japan. So I guess they and the window sticker are incorrect. No problem for me!
EricL and Dead-Fox, Please forgive me for ever thinking that I knew something about the tranny in my CL-S. I should be
for ever presenting information or stating an opinion regarding the Honda five speed trans that contradicts either of you in this forum. And just to show there are no hard feelings in this matter; I offer the following statement:"Hey everybody in this forum, EricL and Dead-Fox are the ultimate authorities for the identification of the country of origin for the Honda five speed transmission. Do not believe any other information that you may see regarding the originating country including Acura window sticker, manufacturer, or serial number stamp on transmission housing." Please contact them if there is some question regarding the country of origin for the Acura 2001 CL Type S Case closed!
09-25-2004, 12:25 PM
#14
If you read through the report that Honda submitted to the NHTSA, you will see that the majority of these trannies were assembled in the US with US parts. That's not to say there wasn't some Japanese content.
But according to the report, the initial trannies were Japanese, but as they moved assembly to the US, the problems started. When the clutch packs became US sourced, the quality of them dropped considerably as compared to the Japanese sourced versions.
According to the report, the US sourced components were way out of tollerance and more likely to fail than those from Japan (tho they were still failing which hinted at other design problems).
So, if you read the report, you will see that the crappy tranny is of US descent .. but that's not to say that it is crappy simply because it was made in the US (as Jap ones are included in the too many to list recalls/updates/modifications/etc from Honda ...
Which lead me to the conclusion that there is NO way in HELL that I'd own a Honda POS slush-box
But according to the report, the initial trannies were Japanese, but as they moved assembly to the US, the problems started. When the clutch packs became US sourced, the quality of them dropped considerably as compared to the Japanese sourced versions.
According to the report, the US sourced components were way out of tollerance and more likely to fail than those from Japan (tho they were still failing which hinted at other design problems).
So, if you read the report, you will see that the crappy tranny is of US descent .. but that's not to say that it is crappy simply because it was made in the US (as Jap ones are included in the too many to list recalls/updates/modifications/etc from Honda ...
Which lead me to the conclusion that there is NO way in HELL that I'd own a Honda POS slush-box
09-25-2004, 05:34 PM
#15
Suzuka Master
Put up a poll...
Originally Posted by allenn
From EricL's link:
American Automobile Labeling Act — Requires that each automobile manufactured on or after October 1, 1994, for sale in the U.S. beara label disclosing where the car was assembled, the percentage of equipment that originated in the U.S. and Canada, and the country of origin of the engine and transmission. Any representation that a car marketer makes that is required by the AALA is exempt from the Commission’s policy. When a company makes claims in advertising or promotional materials that go beyond the AALA requirements, it will be held to the Commission’s standard. For more information, call the
Consumer Programs Division of the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (202-366-0846).
It seems to me that the window sticker on my CL-S clearly states that the trans is from Japan, see the following link:
http://www.acura-cl.com/forums/show...93&postcount=51
Do you have the original window sticker for your CL's? Is it possible that the tranny's in the early CL's came from Japan? I talked to American Honda about my window sticker, and they said that my original trans originated in Japan. So I guess they and the window sticker are incorrect. No problem for me!
EricL and Dead-Fox, Please forgive me for ever thinking that I knew something about the tranny in my CL-S. I should be for ever presenting information or stating an opinion regarding the Honda five speed trans that contradicts either of you in this forum. And just to show there are no hard feelings in this matter; I offer the following statement:
"Hey everybody in this forum, EricL and Dead-Fox are the ultimate authorities for the identification of the country of origin for the Honda five speed transmission. Do not believe any other information that you may see regarding the originating country including Acura window sticker, manufacturer, or serial number stamp on transmission housing." Please contact them if there is some question regarding the country of origin for the Acura 2001 CL Type S Case closed!
American Automobile Labeling Act — Requires that each automobile manufactured on or after October 1, 1994, for sale in the U.S. beara label disclosing where the car was assembled, the percentage of equipment that originated in the U.S. and Canada, and the country of origin of the engine and transmission. Any representation that a car marketer makes that is required by the AALA is exempt from the Commission’s policy. When a company makes claims in advertising or promotional materials that go beyond the AALA requirements, it will be held to the Commission’s standard. For more information, call the
Consumer Programs Division of the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (202-366-0846).
It seems to me that the window sticker on my CL-S clearly states that the trans is from Japan, see the following link:
http://www.acura-cl.com/forums/show...93&postcount=51
Do you have the original window sticker for your CL's? Is it possible that the tranny's in the early CL's came from Japan? I talked to American Honda about my window sticker, and they said that my original trans originated in Japan. So I guess they and the window sticker are incorrect. No problem for me!
EricL and Dead-Fox, Please forgive me for ever thinking that I knew something about the tranny in my CL-S. I should be
for ever presenting information or stating an opinion regarding the Honda five speed trans that contradicts either of you in this forum. And just to show there are no hard feelings in this matter; I offer the following statement:"Hey everybody in this forum, EricL and Dead-Fox are the ultimate authorities for the identification of the country of origin for the Honda five speed transmission. Do not believe any other information that you may see regarding the originating country including Acura window sticker, manufacturer, or serial number stamp on transmission housing." Please contact them if there is some question regarding the country of origin for the Acura 2001 CL Type S Case closed!
I clearly said (among other things):
Also, depending on the date, time, and other factors, it is very well possible that "some" of the cars got trannies from Japan.
It is unfortunate that it is nearly impossible -- at least in my opinion -- to ascertain the origin of a car, tool, grocery, and/or other item in today's global economy. The very documents I showed should be proof enough of that.
I have had many an encounter with "folks" who gave me the "Why didn't you buy American?" after looking at the Acura CLS and then showed me their would-be "American"-branded vehicle that was later determined to have been assembled (in part or whole) in Mexico and/or Canada. IMO, it seemed that my CLS was probably more "American" if you look at percent of assembly in US as a criterion. (IMO, aspects of this could be argued ad infinitum)
So, to be clear, that is what is at the heart of the matter. This issue has been discussed over the years and various members -- including myself -- have found press releases with Honda "bragging" about their state-of-the-art plant in Ohio where they manufacture transmissions.
So, perhaps you may have a transmission that is 100% Japanese. And, then again, you might not. Hard to know exactly what means what. At one time, Acura Care told me that the Acura CL Type-S must have 93 XL load rated tires put on the car (or higher), or the user would be in trouble. That XL story has disappeared from their lips and their documents.
If a number of folks had their original stickers (my dealer removed mine for me -- thanks guys), we might even be able to take a poll.
So, if you like, I have a suggestion for you:
Why not start a poll and ask:
Do you still have your Vehicle sticker and is your tranny made in Japan?
(Or word it as you please)
Perhaps you can correlate the sticker with failures...
I, for one, am still interested in information. I am going to continue to question and probe information. I expect you and others will too.
And, was more information or less information gleaned from this thread? Are their really any losers or winners? Need I say more?
09-25-2004, 06:58 PM
#16
Suzuka Master
3rd gear clutch packs manufacturing location changed. Not the tranny.
Originally Posted by DivinDude
If you read through the report that Honda submitted to the NHTSA, you will see that the majority of these trannies were assembled in the US with US parts. That's not to say there wasn't some Japanese content.
But according to the report, the initial trannies were Japanese, but as they moved assembly to the US, the problems started. When the clutch packs became US sourced, the quality of them dropped considerably as compared to the Japanese sourced versions.
According to the report, the US sourced components were way out of tollerance and more likely to fail than those from Japan (tho they were still failing which hinted at other design problems).
So, if you read the report, you will see that the crappy tranny is of US descent .. but that's not to say that it is crappy simply because it was made in the US (as "Japanese" ones [those with Japanese clutch material] are included in the too many to list recalls/updates/modifications/etc from Honda ...
Which lead me to the conclusion that there is NO way in HELL that I'd own a Honda POS slush-box
But according to the report, the initial trannies were Japanese, but as they moved assembly to the US, the problems started. When the clutch packs became US sourced, the quality of them dropped considerably as compared to the Japanese sourced versions.
According to the report, the US sourced components were way out of tollerance and more likely to fail than those from Japan (tho they were still failing which hinted at other design problems).
So, if you read the report, you will see that the crappy tranny is of US descent .. but that's not to say that it is crappy simply because it was made in the US (as "Japanese" ones [those with Japanese clutch material] are included in the too many to list recalls/updates/modifications/etc from Honda ...
Which lead me to the conclusion that there is NO way in HELL that I'd own a Honda POS slush-box
2. The only mention that I could find that specifically talks about Japan vs. US manufacture of parts is as follows:
Page 579:
Titled: Changes in Manufacture (by FCC) of 3rd Clutch Pack
3rd clutch pack manufacturing (assembling) location of FCC was changed from Japan to US in April 2001, and localization of the parts colored in yellow in the table on the right was started at the same time.
Changes in parts/manufacturing process related to the 3rd clutch pack thereafter
* Localization of GUIDE COMP is US started in October 2001
* DISK bonding process transferred from FCC-Indiana to FCC-North Carolina in December 2001
No other changes in M/L, material, equipment, etc. since HTM launched upon mass production in April 2000.
The table on the right is scanned (as is the everything) and is very, very fuzzy, but the parts are strictly related to the clutch pack assembly:
1 -- Spg. clutch disk
1 -- Spg. clutch disk
2 -- Plate clutch end
? -- Disks, clutch
Facing
4 -- Guide xxxx, 3rd clutch
????
xxxx guide
6 -- Spring, clutch return
? -- Plates, clutch 2 3
7 -- ???? return spring
8 -- Piston ....
????
Vavle ???? check
9 -- Circlip
9 -- Circlip
10 - Snap ring 133mm
11 - Brg. ball, ??x??x?
12 - O-ring
13 - O-ring 114x ??
--
All of the parts are part of the "clutch pack"....
The documents were scanned at low-res and no OCR was used making text search impossible.
PAGE 633:
October 2001
Localization of PGH in the US started.
Localization of GUIDE COMP in the US started.
Later in December 2001, Disk bonding process was moved from FCC-Indiana to FCC-North Carolina.
No other changes in M/L, material, equipment, etc, since HTM launched upon mass production in April 2000.
4. There were other comments that related Japan to US. In one case, the “Verification of Strength of Clutch Return Spring Guide” shows a difference that makes the Japan version look better than the US version. However, the conclusion is revealing: “The clutch return spring guide is considered to have deformed with the return spring in compressed condition, and such deformation is [a] secondary failure derived from clutch wear.” (IOW, we are back to the issue of clutch wear/quality). There was also the countershaft to oil guide plate clearance; this is rather important to insure sufficient ATF flow to the clutch pack and GEARS for cooling and lubrication. There are some references to an ideal standard, and with some of the other Q/A & Q/C issues, I can not be 100% sure what is being compared to what. IOW, they did make trannies in Japan for the Honda Inspire. It also came with a slushbox and J series V6.
See, this is the problem. When you are a global manufacturer, you don't need to tell someone about the source of every individual part. There may be issues that concern the percentage of parts by country of origin, but I sure don't know of a rule that says that they must get a list of parts – or a particular part -- from a particular territory, country, or point on the globe to be legit.
And, some folks managed to get a lot of mileage out of some of the boxes, so they either had very well-blessed religious icons, good karma, or some good fortune...
09-25-2004, 09:57 PM
#18
Suzuka Master
Originally Posted by aclura
Nailing down where these contraptions came from is about as elusive as to what is killing them.
If I really want to keep the car at the end of the warranty I'd be thinking about:
Velocity Resources and their carbon/Kevlar clutches and other goodies.
As for tracing all of the Japanese vs. American stuff, a poll would be a start. If everyone hasn't tossed their window stickers.
I don't know if it will prove anything, but it might be interesting...
If V/R can make a tranny that got the crap beat out of it and it was returned because the “stock” torque converter failed, what does that say about having a few bits and pieces changed. A member here is driving a S/C auto with the V/R tranny and we’ll see how he does. He now has Scalbert’s intercooler and is pushing around 8 lbs of boost in his 2001 CL Type-S (with V/R Level III slushbox).
They told me a well-abused tranny came back from some serious pounding and the clutch packs and transmission were still fine. It simply needed a billet torque converter. (I’m just reporting what I was told.)
YMMV
09-27-2004, 11:09 AM
#20
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Originally Posted by aclura
Hard driving doesn't seem to be a factor.
Japanese manufactured transmissions apparently are no better than the American ones. Mine was manufactured in Japan sometime in 2000, based on window sticker and trans serial number; and it failed at 48000 miles. I do not know from where the replacement tranny came. I think the whole thing comes down to poor engineering which means too much heat.
09-27-2004, 11:36 AM
#22
Racer
donduncan-- I'm perplexed a bit.. so these window stickers claim that our tranny's were made in Japan.. and your car is a 2002..
from EricL:
I would have thought your window sticker would have said that the tranny was made in the US.. ? (maybe it was made prior to april 2001)
from EricL:
3rd clutch pack manufacturing (assembling) location of FCC was changed from Japan to US in April 2001, and localization of the parts colored in yellow in the table on the right was started at the same time.
09-27-2004, 11:44 AM
#23
Racer
hey allenn-
I hope I don't come off as sounding like a know it all. I am certainly NOT trying to. I am trying to get to the bottom of this just like everyone else here. i DO appreciate, however, being grouped with EricL! LOL- sorry Eric!
Hey everybody in this forum, EricL and Dead-Fox are the ultimate authorities for the identification of the country of origin for the Honda five speed transmission. Do not believe any other information that you may see regarding the originating country including Acura window sticker, manufacturer, or serial number stamp on transmission housing." Please contact them if there is some question regarding the country of origin for the Acura 2001 CL Type S Case closed!
09-27-2004, 12:13 PM
#24
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Originally Posted by Dead-Fox
hey allenn-
I hope I don't come off as sounding like a know it all. I am certainly NOT trying to. I am trying to get to the bottom of this just like everyone else here. i DO appreciate, however, being grouped with EricL! LOL- sorry Eric!
I hope I don't come off as sounding like a know it all. I am certainly NOT trying to. I am trying to get to the bottom of this just like everyone else here. i DO appreciate, however, being grouped with EricL! LOL- sorry Eric!
. Have a great day!
09-27-2004, 03:57 PM
#25
Racer
Here's another interesting little tidbit of info regarding HTM:
No. 357, June 1999
seen here: http://www.jei.org/Archive/BR99/357x...Transport.html
No. 357, June 1999
RICHMOND AUTO PARTS TECHNOLOGY, INC. plans to launch integrated production of V-6 transmission gears for HONDA TRANSMISSION MANUFACTURING OF AMERICA, INC. in Marysville, Ohio. Richmond, Kentucky-based RAPT, a subsidiary of AICHI KIKI CO., LTD. that recently began operations, currently imports forged materials from Japan and then machines, grinds and heat processes them into gears. Through an additional investment in forging machines and other equipment, RAPT will have the capability by 2001 to perform all the manufacturing steps to make 1,400 sets of seven gears each per day for HTM, or 340,000 a year. By then, Nagoya-based Aichi Kiki expects to have invested $46.8 million in RAPT, which should be doing more than $25 million in annual business and to have 86 people on its payroll.
09-30-2004, 03:24 AM
#26
Suzuka Master
Originally Posted by allenn
You guys (including EricL) need to lighten up. I don't take any of this seriously.
Can I suggest that you do a little self evaluation and seek help with your fixation.
I'm trying to help people with facts. I even told you to put up a poll to see if you could help clarify the issue by asking for more input from other uses on their window stickers.
It seems that you neglected to let other people -- or perhaps you neglected to read the following:
(HERE IT IS AGAIN -- You seem to have a "selective" reading problem):
I clearly said (among other things):
EricL response to YOUR quote below:
Also, depending on the date, time, and other factors, it is very well possible that "some" of the cars got trannies from Japan.
Also, depending on the date, time, and other factors, it is very well possible that "some" of the cars got trannies from Japan.
And, you post this up:
Hey everybody in this forum, EricL and Dead-Fox are the ultimate authorities for the identification of the country of origin for the Honda five speed transmission. Do not believe any other information that you may see regarding the originating country including Acura window sticker, manufacturer, or serial number stamp on transmission housing." Please contact them if there is some question regarding the country of origin for the Acura 2001 CL Type S Case closed!
Passive aggresive?
My 2001 CL-S was manufactured in Ohio very early in 2000. I had one of the first CL-S's in the Atlanta area. The original transmission's serial number indicates that it was made in Japan which agrees with the window sticker. My only point is that it does not matter where the tranny was made, because there are failures from both places of origin. I do not know where my current rebuilt tranny was manufactured or rebuilt. I assume that the rebuilds are coming from Ohio. I just hate to hear how the Japanese trans are better than the American ones. I do not think this is the case. The bottom line is the tranny suffers from poor engineering. This is my . Have a great day!
. Have a great day!
If trying to help people and find hard data is being too serious, I'll take that as a compliment. I've offerered up suggestions and varying views and you continue to see only what you want to see and ignore what you don't.
I'd like to know how you know that the original serial number indicates that it is actually made in Japan? How did you determine this? If you have some information that clearly defines this and you know this for sure, it might be of some use to help identify patterns and help user-car buyers find CLs with 100% Japanese transmissions.
And, do we really know that the window stickers on the cars from the 2001 CLS and/or 2002 CLS ALL have the "Country of Orgin" (Japan) in them? Maybe yes, maybe no, this is not clear at this time. Do we really know that the boxes were assembled, tested, and build in Japan from all Japanese parts? Is it a given that on any given day, a box with parts sourced, at least in part from Japan, MUST be better than a box made in the US?
This is just a bit too stereotyped for me.
I tried to make it clear that the only information that was clearly presented in the NHTSA data was a change in manufacturing location for the 3rd gear clutch pack.
I've talked to a number of people and their are serious quality control issues in the transmission (old news). However, there are people that rebuild Honda/Acura transmissions and they pretty much agree that the clutch packs are not up to the task.
V/R makes a solid series of replacement boxes that are made to last longer and handle a S/C, Turbo, NOS, etc. They get a set of carbon/Kevlar clutches along with some "tweaks" to the line pressure, valving, etc. They recommend an additional ATF cooler.
Random failures are going to result from all kinds of Q/A & Q/C issues that Honda/Acura has admitted to, but that doesn't mean that everyone is going to get a bad (shitty) transmission. There are a number of people that are driving on original transmissions with over 100K miles. There are also a number of sure-fire ways of abusing the transmission, and this has no bearing on the country of origin. IOW, if you heat up the tranny and shift using certain patterns, the box is going to be slipping rather quickly.
Call up V/R and talk to them. They rebuild the trannies and they seem to be able to build some solid ones. Even Level-10 -- with a dubious reputation -- commented a couple of years ago about how the bulk of the parts were solid with the exception of the clutch packs.
You seem to have some confusion about what you do and don't care about. About 80+ % of your posts concern your transmission.
09-30-2004, 12:01 PM
#27
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EricL -
EricL - I do appreciate all the information that you and "That Girl" have provided. Also, I would like to thank you for the psycho-analysis. It saves me money, and I feel better now. Too bad it does nothing to resolve the transmission issues and only is an attack of my ideas about this subject.
This group is called "Transmission Q&A", so it makes sense to me that 80% percent of my posts are rants (I said that) about my trans. I thought that this was the appropriate forum to air my complaints about Honda's five speed automatic transmission. I think personal attacks are inapproriate here, and it stiffles the free flow of ideas.
If you think a poll will be beneficial, then take charge and start one. I'm sure it would be more meaningful for someone with your expertise to start the poll. If I start the poll, it would not be meaningful, because I lack your command of the technical knowledge regarding the Honda transmission.
I published my window sticker in this thread not to contradict any of your information or attack your thoughts, but to show, that the country of origin has nothing to do with the trans failure rate. I am surprised you did not know the transmission has a serial number which identifies the origin of manufacturer.
My comment that none of this is taken seriously was related to the bantering back and forth by you and Dead-Fox. It came on the heals of Dead-Fox's comments. I take my trans failures seriously. You have an opinion which I will defend to your death the right to express. Please be kind enough to accept my right of expression too. Have a nice day!
This group is called "Transmission Q&A", so it makes sense to me that 80% percent of my posts are rants (I said that) about my trans. I thought that this was the appropriate forum to air my complaints about Honda's five speed automatic transmission. I think personal attacks are inapproriate here, and it stiffles the free flow of ideas.
If you think a poll will be beneficial, then take charge and start one. I'm sure it would be more meaningful for someone with your expertise to start the poll. If I start the poll, it would not be meaningful, because I lack your command of the technical knowledge regarding the Honda transmission.
I published my window sticker in this thread not to contradict any of your information or attack your thoughts, but to show, that the country of origin has nothing to do with the trans failure rate. I am surprised you did not know the transmission has a serial number which identifies the origin of manufacturer.
My comment that none of this is taken seriously was related to the bantering back and forth by you and Dead-Fox. It came on the heals of Dead-Fox's comments. I take my trans failures seriously. You have an opinion which I will defend to your death the right to express. Please be kind enough to accept my right of expression too. Have a nice day!
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