aLeX123

hey you'll next month iam planning to buy new tires...i have no choice but to buy them,because i got like 21,000 miles already and i have been driving crazy..i mean crazy, i no wat size i want but i dont no which brand is top of the line..iam looking for some tires wiht grip and more grip..i want soemthing name brand..the size 17/225...im gonna stick wiht the factory rims for now...i just wanna throw this out also...i hit the century mark on my post...thanx for all the help u guyz...i got mad love for you'll

Mike

Check the sig if you change your mind and want to go with a 235/45/17.

------------------
2001 Satin Silver Cl Type S.
Comptech:Headers, Springs & Sways
AEM CAI
Toyo T1S Proxys 235/45/17
35% Llumar metallic tint
My Car

aLeX123

235/45/17...man wont they stick out...would it b better for racing

Mike

They don't stick out at all. They're only 10mm larger than 225s. Check out the Potenza's RE730s. Another great tire in the size you're looking for.

------------------
2001 Satin Silver Cl Type S.
Comptech:Headers, Springs & Sways
AEM CAI
Toyo T1S Proxys 235/45/17
35% Llumar metallic tint
My Car

deadlyCL-S

make the smart choice man, grab the nitto 555 extremes. their tread is rated at 320 lifetime.

the tires others here are talking about will only last you 7 months..the nitto's are gonna last almost double that.

they are not all-season so done expect to drive in snow.

they are Ultra High Performance tires. this is the only tire that has the tread like CLOSE to stock tires...ANY other ultr-performance tire will last half of what the stock tires lasted. either those or Kumho Supra's..but the nittos are better.

Handling, and stuff is ABSOLOUTELY AWSOME..HUGe difference!!!!!

people dont buy them as much cause they think there is something wron with them cause their are enexpensive (120/tire)

EricL

I'm biased -- get the Toyos. I got the tires on stock rims. I went to the SSRs to go from 25-26lbs a wheel to 13 lbs a wheel. They stick like glue in wet and dry (I had RE-71s on my last car) and this kill those. The RE-730s are liked by other drivers and they put on 225/45-17s. My tire dealer drives with the Nitto 555s. One thing the Toyos have in the size your looking for is a better load rating than the Nittos and RE-730s and a reinforced carcass. They are also XL rated.

BTW -- Any of the high performance tires are going to wear out quick. The Toyos are rated at 280 wear. The Nittos are 300 or 320, the RE-730s are 300 rated. Don't expect the sticky tires to last as long. You will corner harder -- so you will use them up by pushing them harder that the POS stock tires.



------------------
Silver 2001 CL-S with NAVI

• Mud guards
• Wheel locks
• Toyo T1S 235/45ZR17-97W* Proxies on 17x8" SSR Competition wheels (48lbs less than stock)
• Kevlar/SS Brake lines ordered
• Comptech headers & sways ready
• Silver AEM CAI ready
• 6 coats of Zaino magic

EricL

Do check the wear ratings on the Nittos, RE-730s and the Toyos. They are all within 10% in wear rate.

The new tires you mentioned have high silica and long-carbon chains. That means stick with long life.

The Toyo T1S has the newest design. The RE-730s have the 2nd newest design. The Nito-555 are two years old. They are good tires and priced well. But, your only talking about 10-30 bucks a tire difference (if you shop around). I paid about $150 ea for the 235s. I see the priced the Nittos in the same size for about 10-20 less per tire.



------------------
Silver 2001 CL-S with NAVI

• Mud guards
• Wheel locks
• Toyo T1S 235/45ZR17-97W* Proxies on 17x8" SSR Competition wheels (48lbs less than stock)
• Kevlar/SS Brake lines ordered
• Comptech headers & sways ready
• Silver AEM CAI ready
• 6 coats of Zaino magic

EricL

No they don't stick out. There are about 4 of us here that did this on stock wheels. No problems, no bulge, looked great. The sidewall protector helps a bit from scratching the stock wheels. The TLS went to 6.5" wheels -- Hmmm....




------------------
Silver 2001 CL-S with NAVI

• Mud guards
• Wheel locks
• Toyo T1S 235/45ZR17-97W* Proxies on 17x8" SSR Competition wheels (48lbs less than stock)
• Kevlar/SS Brake lines ordered
• Comptech headers & sways ready
• Silver AEM CAI ready
• 6 coats of Zaino magic

gavriil

How many times do we have to post here that any other size other than OEM will screw up VSA on our cars? Why do you guys put austhetics before safety?

And if that is not enough, why go and raise the unsprung weight by putting larger and most probably, heavier tires on?

And if that is not enough and the weight is the same as the OEM tires then go with the OEM size to lower the unsprung weight.

And if that is not enough, by putting summer tires you are raising the coeficient of friction. By putting on summer tires which are of largert diameter, you are raising that even more. Which means that it is harder for those 4 wheels to turn now. I do not think I need to explain the disadvantages this brings (pretty much the same as adding more unsprung weight).

Come on people, be smart and do the right thing. Put on the OEM size (I know that it is hard to find tires in that size but there are some good choices like the Potenza 730s someone discussed about in a previous message). As far as brands, I always try to stick with Michelin or Bridgestone. It is not coincidental that those 2 brands are the ones that are involved in F1 today. All that Research and Development passes on to the tires me and you will buy eventually. Trust me.

------------------
Gabriel
CL Type S

Technique

Dude, are you smoking crack? "All other tires will only last 7 months?" Man, that's just plain incorrect. Toyo, Potenzas, Pole Positions, will not last "7 months". It totally depends on the driver. I can make any tire last 1 year or 1 day.

Besides, as Eric and co. have said above, all treadwears are within 10% so don't worry about that. (280-320 range)

------------------
Silver CL-S w/ Navi, Spoiler, Wheel Locks, Trunk Tray, 19169, 9005
Toyo 235/45ZR17-97W* T1-S Proxes on 17X8 SSR Competition Wheels (47.2 lbs lighter than stock wheel+tire setup)
Comptech Sways
G-Tech (Full tank of gas, 60F, VSA off, SS) - 5.94 seconds
V-1 Hardwired

Nashua_Night_Hawk

Changing Tires from 215/50/17 to 235/45/18 will not change the perimeter of the tire, which is 80". So, the VSA will have the same rotations per mile. However, having a tire with a perimeter of 70" or 90" will of course get the VSA/Speedo/NAVI go south.


------------------
Black, Ebony, 3.2 CL Type-S, NAV.
- 3M clear bra, by Stonguard (full front bumper, and side mirrors, and partial hood)
- Acura Spoiler, Moonroof visor
- Splash guards, Winter mats, Trunk liner
- Valentine V1 Radar Locator
- HELMS Service Manual
- PIAA 19169 road lamps
- 03/19/01: Injen Polished CAI
- 04/10/01: 235/40/18 NITTO 555 on 18x7.5 Koing Imagine in Silver with wheels locks

CO-CL-S

gavriil -- Two things.. First get a life! Second get your fact straight.. No VSA problems, staying stock is for people who are average, WE ARE NOT AVERAGE.. IMHO.

------------------
Eat Safe, Use Condiments
red CL-S, non-Nav, 35% tint, M6 driving lights, M4 map and door lights

Mike

Could it be that Michelin and BS are sponsoring F1 and thus giving them all the tires they need?
In my case the heavier tire weight (maybe 1 pound) and increased rolling resistance will be offset somewhat by the lighter weight wheels that are going on today.

------------------
2001 Satin Silver Cl Type S.
Comptech:Headers, Springs & Sways
AEM CAI
Toyo T1S Proxys 235/45/17
35% Llumar metallic tint
My Car


[This message has been edited by Mike (edited 04-13-2001).]

BMW74

Take it from me, the Toyos are the way to go. I have driven these really hard and I have yet to hear them chirp.





------------------
2001, Satin Silver TL w/ Nav.
Factory Bodykit
Comptech Headers
Comptech Exhaust
Short Ram Intake
Comptech Springs
Comptech Sways
Inspire Tails
Wings West Spoiler (being painted)
CLS Rims, waiting for Toyo rubber

Mike

Not only can't I get them to chirp, squeal or complain, but I think the car will roll over before the tires break loose!

------------------
2001 Satin Silver Cl Type S.
Comptech:Headers, Springs & Sways
AEM CAI
Toyo T1S Proxys 235/45/17
35% Llumar metallic tint
My Car

[This message has been edited by Mike (edited 04-13-2001).]

EricL

Dude -- if I have to I'm going to find that bloody tire drag calculator again. It showed that a 225/45 OR 235/45 had less drag than a 215/50.

If you tell me that I'm full of it. I'll go get the link again.

I think the biggest "problem" with under sizing with a 225/45 vs. 235/45 might be a NAVI wheel brain lock vs. the NAVI internal gyros for a brief period. I was told by Acura Care to keep the rolling radius the same.

I then decided to "think" about this. I went, "Hmmm... the guys with 225 are NOT griping about blown-up/messed-up GPS/NAVI systems."

Ok, so I now see what the max wear limit on the stock tires is (about 10/32"). I re-calc'd the rolling diameter -- surprise I find that a worn out stock tire has a bigger rolling radius than a 225. So, I then look in Helms and see that the NAVI has a Maint. screen that has a tire size adjustment feature (for speed sensing vs. the internal gyros -- when in a tunnel, geomagnetic storms, etc). One of the settings is "AUTO", so since tires wear out, the thing has to be able to do some figuring.

So, first off -- the 225/235 DO NOT INCREASE DRAG vs. a 215/50 as would be commonly expected (there is more to it than foot print size).

The main gas mileage loss is from the sticky rubber. Heck, if I (or whoever) wanted to save on gas, why not go with Teflon tires?
Or, really go ECO-minded and just get some tires from the GM Electric car, and pump the pressure up to 60-70 psi (whatever it is).


Do the right thing? (Are we talking about seeing a Spike Lee movie -- huh?) It is their car, outside of suggesting some of the parameters that might "enlighten", why does it have to be big brother time. Like we belong in some nut farm, since we strayed from the path.

I'm sorry, but I get really bothered when some of have already done something that "WORKS", and then get a lecture from someone who hasn't tried.

So, enjoy your stock tires. We had this same broken record talk back about 3 months ago and the conclusion was:

Stay stock if you like the all season and good mileage.

Go with upgraded/upsized rubber for more stick, etc.

BTW -- I spent 2 months researching the tire stuff. One of the reasons I personally didn't go with a 215/50-17 was the lack of choices and low load rating in that size. I got tires with HIGHER load 97 vs. 93, XL rated (just like stock), are super sticky, AND FINALLY I FEEL SAFE from idiots on the road!!!!

Have a nice day...

------------------
Silver 2001 CL-S with NAVI

• Mud guards
• Wheel locks
• Toyo T1S 235/45ZR17-97W* Proxies on 17x8" SSR Competition wheels (48lbs less than stock)
• Kevlar/SS Brake lines ordered
• Comptech headers & sways ready
• Silver AEM CAI ready
• 6 coats of Zaino magic

[This message has been edited by EricL (edited 04-13-2001).]

cleener

I have 235/45/17 Pirelli P7000. Very aggressive unidirectional tread. These stay absolutely planted in all but the most severe attitudes, then break away progressively at the limit. They definitely let you know what's goin on underneath. F. 35 psi, B. 33 psi. And, oh yeah, THEIR PIRELLI'S! What was that asshole saying about VSA uh, tire weight, uh, uh, uh

------------------
I AM

The CLEENER

Black/Parchment Type S

EricL

Here is the link to the tire resistance calculator. You can put in the following:

Stock/original tire SIZE on left:

Section Width: 215
aspect: 50
tire size: 17
weight on tire: 1200 (close enough)
Leave the elasticity as is at .0035 (for both sides)

Put in your mph (60 mph -- typical hwy speed)

Now put in your tire size to the left.

I come up with the a 235/45-17 having a lower rolling resistance force: (50 series = 232.42 vs 45 series = 221.24)

Here is the link:
http://www.sirius.com/~bsquared/tireinfo/tirecalc.html


Note: this is just comparing the same tire construction with different aspects, etc.


BTW -- sorry, I forgot to mention the P7000 and P7000SS. They also seem to be well liked, and the SS will work in the snow (if you must).


(Could someone archive this before I loose it again -- thanks..)


------------------
Silver 2001 CL-S with NAVI

• Mud guards
• Wheel locks
• Toyo T1S 235/45ZR17-97W* Proxies on 17x8" SSR Competition wheels (48lbs less than stock)
• Kevlar/SS Brake lines ordered
• Comptech headers & sways ready
• Silver AEM CAI ready
• 6 coats of Zaino magic

[This message has been edited by EricL (edited 04-13-2001).]

NOVAwhiteTypeS

ericL is the picture form bmw74 the toyo's you have as well? also any one have the 235/45/17 w/ comptech springs?? no one answered me last time

------------------
CL-S
White/Ebony/Navi/Spoiler/Visor/Full Bra/Mud Guards/Acura Car Cover/Tint 20%,35%,5% on Sun Roof, Rockford 250a2 Amp w/JL10w6 / K&N Drop in Filter. Comptech Springs. Polarg m-6.
Comptech Headers, Comptech Sways, Eurolite Xenon Crystal high beams.
me.

gtech 0-60 6.03 w/ 438 pound load. preheader.

Mike

Thanks Eric!!! You're a great asset to this board!!

------------------
2001 Satin Silver Cl Type S.
Comptech:Headers, Springs & Sways
AEM CAI
Toyo T1S Proxys 235/45/17
35% Llumar metallic tint
My Car

EricL

The picture looks like my Toyos when they were on stock wheels. I just can't tell if he has 225s, but they sure look like the 235s

Mike has the 235/45 Toyos with the lowering springs.



------------------
Silver 2001 CL-S with NAVI

• Mud guards
• Wheel locks
• Toyo T1S 235/45ZR17-97W* Proxies on 17x8" SSR Competition wheels (48lbs less than stock)
• Kevlar/SS Brake lines ordered
• Comptech headers & sways ready
• Silver AEM CAI ready
• 6 coats of Zaino magic

[DWI]

What series are those how much per tire did they run you?


------------------
2001 Acura CL Type S "Claire" non-navi No spoiler. Bone stock, for now.
~Member of the Scratched Rim Club.~ Two Times Over

gavriil

Eric,

Dont think you are so smart. And Mike dont praise before you research. Eric says he researched the tire issue for 2 months but it seems to me that he needs to go back to school.

THE HIGHER THE ROLLING RESISTANCE THE BETTER YOU FOOL!

And as for the big brother crap, please...

All I said is what Acura recommends and what Acura has put in our cars from the factory. The real big brother is Acura for me on this matter and others. They made the car, they know way more than me and you. If you think that because you researched tires for 2 months you can talk like that you really need to start from secondary school where they teach you to DOUBLE CHECK your work.

And by the way, 1200 pounds is too much. I used 1124 for the front wheel. Can you guess why? I wonder...


------------------
Gabriel
CL Type S

[This message has been edited by gavriil (edited 04-13-2001).]

EricL

Well Gabvrill, there you go:

Now it is time for a pissing contest...

Ok, if the tire has rolling resistance, it uses more energy -- yes/no?

And about the pounds -- you have this thing with "exact" numbers -- did you ever think about people and other objects being in the car?

So, if you are going to rant on and on, looking like a complete "I am the way -- I know it all, arrogant dictator", there is nothing I can do about that.

If you know something, spit it out...

Dude -- until you get in a car with the upgraded rubber, please put "I think" in front of all of your posts.

BTW -- Since you seem to not want to change a single thing that Acura/Honda did. Perhaps you can find one of those old Honda's with the Michelin's that you love so much. They made a batch with so much silica in them, that the poor toll booth operators were getting shocked. So, I guess you would insist on leaving them on the car, until you got a call from Acura.

Give me a break. You opinions are welcome, your ranting is not (my own opintion and this picture of you is mine as well -- I can't prove it -- OK)




------------------
Silver 2001 CL-S with NAVI

• Mud guards
• Wheel locks
• Toyo T1S 235/45ZR17-97W* Proxies on 17x8" SSR Competition wheels (48lbs less than stock)
• Kevlar/SS Brake lines ordered
• Comptech headers & sways ready
• Silver AEM CAI ready
• 6 coats of Zaino magic

[This message has been edited by EricL (edited 04-13-2001).]

Nashua_Night_Hawk

Gabriel and Eric,

Please read my first impression about my new wheels/tires. Gaby if you like stock, that is fine, if you have a doubt about other setup drive a CLS that has the setup. Some tire chains will even let you drive 500 miles and will buy back the tires if you do not like them . Try it and you will like it

------------------
Black, Ebony, 3.2 CL Type-S, NAV.
- 3M clear bra, by Stonguard (full front bumper, and side mirrors, and partial hood)
- Acura Spoiler, Moonroof visor
- Splash guards, Winter mats, Trunk liner
- Valentine V1 Radar Locator
- HELMS Service Manual
- PIAA 19169 road lamps
- 03/19/01: Injen Polished CAI
- 04/13/01: 235/40/18 NITTO 555 on 18x7.5 Koing Imagine in Silver with wheels locks

gavriil

Eric just tell me one thing. According to the calculator link you posted before, is it better for rolling resistance to be higher or lower?

No pissing at all, I dont have to compete with you at all. Just answer that question above.

------------------
Gabriel
CL Type S

EricL

Gavrill -- Helpful tip... If you would look around the older posts some time. You would know that we all compared notes about the lost mileage with the sticker rubber. WE got that -- OK...

I guess my analogy about a Teflon roller vs double sided tape was lost on you.

BTW -- your quote:

"How many times do we have to post here that any other size other than OEM will screw up VSA on our cars? Why do you guys put austhetics before safety?"

Are you sure you didn't have something else on your mind. By your tone, I think you do actually think that we are all of bunch of autism sufferers (or did you mean aesthetics
)

Some of us might actually like cool looking stuff.

So, now I'm going to spell this out again:

--Current tires now have 97W rating vs the stock 93V

--Current tire have XL rating just like stock (but don't have the side wall rolling over)

--Current tire doesn't squeal like little piggies on paint strips, black top, and concrete.


--Current tires now stick like glue and help:

1. Braking
2. Accident avoidance
3. Handling
4. Acceleration
5. Are 1.5lbs lighter
6. have higher speed rating
7. have higher load rating
8. Fit perfectly
9. lower rotational inertia (figure the energy in that out)

--So, if I managed to find a tire with a tire rolling radius that is so close to stock that I drove for 1.5 hours with no satellites in the sky (geomagnetic storm), that my NAVI was with in a few feet when the satellite acquisition came back.

I rest my case! I enjoyed them *and* you can bash my own time researching, but you haven't made a very persuasive case.

Cool it down dude -- we all go our own ways, do we really need the hair shirt and Nazi ruler scene?



------------------
Silver 2001 CL-S with NAVI

• Mud guards
• Wheel locks
• Toyo T1S 235/45ZR17-97W* Proxies on 17x8" SSR Competition wheels (48lbs less than stock)
• Kevlar/SS Brake lines ordered
• Comptech headers & sways ready
• Silver AEM CAI ready
• 6 coats of Zaino magic

gavriil

Why are you guys stuck with this "Gabriel likes stock and only stock" thing?

All I said is that Acura states that when one changes tires, please make sure you keep the size the same as the VSA could be misculaculating. IT IS IN THE FRICKING MANUAL. Acura engineers who made this car that you are all driving, including myself. THEY MADE THE CAR, they make the rules. Now if you dont wonna follow the rules, please feel free to take the fricking car and burn it. I, not Acura cares I would not think.

I come out and state something that is in the manual, I call it the "right thing to do" and you guys attack me and am called a dictator and other name. Who has the problem I wonder. By the way, Eric maybe you need to look in a dictionary to see what a dictator is because no one grabbed you from the throat and mandated what tires you use. Like I said, burn the car if you want. I called it the right thing cos it is what Acura recommends and I understand the principle that premise is based upon. Thus, I understand why Acura makes that recommendation.

As for stickier rubber. If I changed tires now, I doubt I would put in the MXMs. I would go with a summer tire like the Potenza 730 or the P7000 and then have a set of winter tires for the snow here in Chicago. Now, who likes stock and only stock?

If I had a choice on the size I would go with the Pilot Sport (the tire that BMW puts on the new M3) or the new S03. As I said, Bridgestone and Michelin I trust the most right now.


------------------
Gabriel
CL Type S

gavriil

Eric,

Another mis-perception of yours. When the tires are squeling the tire is doing its job. It is not a bad thing. What makes you think it is bad?

------------------
Gabriel
CL Type S

gavriil

And to continue the attack...I am now a NAZI too. What a loser you are...

At least I am born and raised in Europe and know a little better what a dictator is and what Nazi means. If you are born and raised in this country (US), do not pretend you know the true meaning of those words cos it is only academic to you. Obviously you do not know the true meaning cos you use them too freely...

Careful with your name calling.

------------------
Gabriel
CL Type S

EricL

Buddy, if your planning on going with the much loved re-730, your going to have to join the club. They don't make a 215/50-17.

Hmmm....

What are you saying????

As far as your intimations about rolling resistance -- you brought it up. So, I answered you with a tool that all can use and see.

Resistance = Drag force.

Are you trying to imply that this resistance is going to translate (by some far flung unproven arm-chair theory that it translates into more grip???)

I would like to make that assumption. Go to TireRack, have a look on the contact foot print page, a wider series tire is going to put down a wider patch, with less patch front to rear. I wanted more stick in the lateral plane -- and I got it. The rest is bonus.

If everyone was SO unhappy with their rubber, don't you think we would have a flame party about are stuff?


Please, do us all a favor. Go to the skidpad with two sets of your favorite tire -- like the P7000 (they do make it in the 215/50 and 235/45 and do some tests for us). Then come back. If you come up with new and better info, I'll think about going to 215s on my next change.

You go spend some dough and do the work

Did you ever wonder why Acura put those tires on the car?

Perhaps -- fuel economy and all season operation. Do I know for sure -- no, but it sure seems reasonable. If your in town, lets go to the track, and you bring your stock tires. We will find out fair and square -- OK?

--bye--


------------------
Silver 2001 CL-S with NAVI

• Mud guards
• Wheel locks
• Toyo T1S 235/45ZR17-97W* Proxies on 17x8" SSR Competition wheels (48lbs less than stock)
• Kevlar/SS Brake lines ordered
• Comptech headers & sways ready
• Silver AEM CAI ready
• 6 coats of Zaino magic

EricL

Quote:
"THE HIGHER THE ROLLING RESISTANCE THE BETTER YOU FOOL!"

Prove it!

Quote:
And as for the big brother crap, please...

You are the one who is telling all the people here what they should NOT do, not offering positive alternatives. You didn't even offer one solution that you actual tested in the real world. Hmmm... Arm chair general comes to mind. When I see all of the work that all the people do here. And when someone comes along and lectures them about "how they can all burn their cars". I feel sorry for you. You sound like you don't really care about letting others enjoy their hard work and money spent listening AND doing.


Quote:
All I said is what Acura recommends and what Acura has put in our cars from the factory. The real big brother is Acura for me on this matter and others. They made the car, they know way more than me and you. If you think that because you researched tires for 2 months you can talk like that you really need to start from secondary school where they teach you to DOUBLE CHECK your work.

And by the way, 1200 pounds is too much. I used 1124 for the front wheel. Can you guess why? I wonder...


Let start with this diatribe of yours. The expression the pot calling the kettle black comes to mind. Here you fault me for my arithmetic. First, I said (unlike you) to use 1200lbs (or whatever) in the tire resistance tool. Notice I qualified the statement to allow people (even you) to put in numbers of their own selection.

Then you throw down the gauntlet with a I need to double check my work *and* go back to school. Well, time to take your own medicine -- you need a trip back to primary school (they do teach ratios and simple math there, so people like you can TRY to get it right). (Perhaps your finger slipped on your calc -- accidents do happen).

So, here is where you screwed up.


1. The Acura CL-S is (about) 3500 lbs
2. The fully loaded weight is 4500 lbs.

So, you got your figure by dividing by 4:
4500 / 4 = 1125 (I guess 1124 is close enough)

However, that is not correct. The car (unloaded) has a weight bias of 63% towards the front. There is a bit of variation depending on gas load, passenger distribution, etc. (Just to give you a break, you will probably cover your tracks by insisting that and back calculating a value that will justify some reasoning -- I'm up to your tricks, you are very predictable.)

So, here is some simple math, that even you should be able to understand:

First figure out the front weight using the "APPROXIMATE gross weight" and 63% forward bias:

4500 / .63 = 2835. Now divide by 2 to get the front left and right tire loaded weights:
2835 / 2 = 1417.5 per from wheel.

Note, this is above the 1200 lbs I posted *and* assumes a perfect right to left weight. Oops, can't do that, Acura never stated that. That would be an assumption!

The rear is done in a similar fashion (using 5th grade math).

Just substitute the 37% rear figures and those weights can be plugged in.


Excerpt of upper paragraph:

"If you think that because you researched tires for 2 months you can talk like that you really need to start from secondary school where they teach you to DOUBLE CHECK your work."

Can I suggest some work on your grammar *or* perhaps you didn't have time to rip-off some tech data. Your grammar is in need of improvement. Your articles are well written, what happened to the above paragraph. May I suggest a comma or two.


You mentioned Acura knowing more than the both of us -- perhaps so. But, I've seen factory supported teams beaten by small teams running the same "basic" car, but they had the gumption and inventiveness to figure out things the "giants" didn't.

You don't allow for all of the wonderful possibilities that open ideas allow. By trying and exchanging actual "REAL" data, we members who try out different tires (and other mods), get to find out first hand which ones are good, what is good about them, and what is not so good about them.

If Acura is so perfect, why did they make the rim and tire combination a sure scratch combination. Mine was scratched by a valet. Since moving to my new tires and wheels, I have avoided at least 2 stock wheel replacements. Acura also went to 6.5" rim on the TL-S. If the 7" wheel and tire is Acura Perfect, as you said in your own way, then if it was so good, why did they move to a 6.5" rim on the newer TL-S?

I guess you love the squealing of the tires, makes you feel like the tires are working. If you need tires to squeal to let you know they are working, you need some help. Any of the new generations tires are quiet at the limit (with the exception of the Michelin Pilots), have great wear, and stick like crazy. The tires that we all mentioned ALL generate high cornering forces, but are very quiet. A good tire doesn't need to squeal like a pig to work.

So, I sounds ironic that you don't care if we burn our cars, but your do care that we don't try something new.

Suggestions:

Your getting into trouble over details -- dump the exact data with the guess work.

What is wrong with saying I think?
What is wrong with saying I assume?
What is wrong with looking at all the posts by people who have tried various tires, and had favorable reviews?
What is wrong with chaging your mind about issues with new important data to support revised thinking?
We are all here to help each other. And if that means making a better car, then I'm all for it. Ingenuity springs from all of us, and Acura doesn't have a corner on universal knowledge. A lot of us, are trying new ideas and solutions in the "real" world; This allows us to move past, "I think so it must be so..." to "Hey, I found out that these tires I put on are really great."

So, I really suggest, that you consider trying out some new option. As I suggested, you can always try out your hypothesis about 215 being better than 225 or 235 by going to a skid pad or just doing a slalom. Prove your point.

When you toss the gauntlet down, and it falls apart when hitting the ground, it doesn't help your position.

You asked, I responded. Be careful what you wish for.

------------------
Silver 2001 CL-S with NAVI

• Mud guards
• Wheel locks
• Toyo T1S 235/45ZR17-97W* Proxies on 17x8" SSR Competition wheels (48lbs less than stock)
• Kevlar/SS Brake lines ordered
• Comptech headers & sways ready
• Silver AEM CAI ready
• 6 coats of Zaino magic

[This message has been edited by EricL (edited 04-14-2001).]

[This message has been edited by EricL (edited 04-14-2001).]

EricL

Just to go on the record.

I love the Toyos, but I want it to be clear that I think the other tires mentioned by you guys (with the exception of the stock MXM4s) are all top choice tires (in case there is any confusion).

------------------
Silver 2001 CL-S with NAVI

• Mud guards
• Wheel locks
• Toyo T1S 235/45ZR17-97W* Proxies on 17x8" SSR Competition wheels (48lbs less than stock)
• Kevlar/SS Brake lines ordered
• Comptech headers & sways ready
• Silver AEM CAI ready
• 6 coats of Zaino magic

gavriil

OK I am going to tone it down but there are a couple of final things to write. By the way I see no one else being so insulted by my comments, it is only you who is writing. But that is OK. So:

I wrote:
Quote:
"THE HIGHER THE ROLLING RESISTANCE THE BETTER YOU FOOL!"

Eric wrote:
Prove it!

I cannot believe you are still doubting this. This is the main point that started one of the main debates. You do need to go to school if you have not figured this out. I am going to use your calculator to prove it. Look how wrong you are:

I am going to take 2 extreme tires. One from a very small car and one from a super exotic. Here are the numbers:

Small car tire: 175X70X15 with 1000 pounds weight on it. The RRF is 0.123328.

The exotic car tire is: 375X30X18 with 1200 pounds weight on it. The PRF is 0.0889

Now is it possible for the 175X70X15 to produce more resistance than the 375X30X18 tire? You put any numbers you want in that calculator and you will see that, in general, "larger" tires have lower PRFs which means there is more resistance produced.

_____________________________________________

Eric wrote:

"You are the one who is telling all the people here what they should NOT do, not offering positive alternatives. You didn't even offer one solution that you actual tested in the real world."

I am here to tell people what ACURA wrote in our manual. Most people do not read their car's manual. That is all I did. Actually, I did one more thing. I tried to explain why Acura wrote that in there. THAT IS ALL.

Then Eric writes:
"Hmmm... Arm chair general comes to mind. When I see all of the work that all the people do here."

If reminding people what it says in the manual is what you wrote above, then I guess there is a "judgement problem" here.

What work, what people? You think someone here who put new tires on, they are running engineering tests on their cars? Relax Eric, you are taking this "car enthusiast" thing a lot more seriously than you should in my HUMBLE opinion. What kind of cars do you think we got, 360 Modenas? Most people here put new tires on because they need new tires. Now, they will go with a summer, stickier tire because they have the opportunity to select from all available tires out there. If there is a member here that would have the time and the money to go and try 20 different tires (not including sizes), run tests on the track and come with the results, then I will believe them. BUT RIGHT NOW, ONLY ACURA HAS DONE THIS on this car. So I will go by Acura not some member here who put Potenza 730s on and from their BUTT METER declare the tire..."oh...so much better than stock!" You believe that member, I will go ahead and believe Acura or some mag who has the bucks to run the tests.
____________________________________________

Eric wrote:

"So, here is where you screwed up.


1. The Acura CL-S is (about) 3500 lbs
2. The fully loaded weight is 4500 lbs.

So, you got your figure by dividing by 4:
4500 / 4 = 1125 (I guess 1124 is close enough)

However, that is not correct. The car (unloaded) has a weight bias of 63% towards the front"

Well, you are wrong. But I forgot something too, so I am part wrong here too. Here is how I came up with the 1124 pounds.

I assumed 3570 pounds for the total weight of the car. 3570 times 0.63 divided by 2 equals 1124 pounds. So dont tell me about the 63% front bias because I took it into consideration. Now what I forgot though is people in the car. Incorrect here, I was.
____________________________________________

Eric, after bashing my grammar writes:

"So, I sounds ironic that you don't care if we burn our cars, but your do care that we don't try something new."

I am going to take the high road here and not bash yours. Instead I will give credit to both of us about being hard to be perfect when writing long, emotional paragraphs like these. Hehe...emotional...
_____________________________________________

Eric wrote:

"Suggestions:

Your getting into trouble over details -- dump the exact data with the guess work."

If your CAR'S MANUAL is a detail to you...which means that Acura's opinion is a detail, then maybe you should start your own car company. There is going to be a lot of financing since you think you are so much better than the engineers that Acura hired. Oh and by the way, dont forget to hire those hard working, knowledgable members of this forum who you trust so much cos they have spent a lot of time in R$D to come to the conclusions of all those messages they have writen in the past...which by the way, I have not followed as you wrote. I, on the other hand, will stick with Acura engineers.
_____________________________________________

Eric wrote:

"What is wrong with saying I think?
What is wrong with saying I assume?
What is wrong with looking at all the posts by people who have tried various tires, and had favorable reviews?
What is wrong with chaging your mind about issues with new important data to support revised thinking?"

I am not saying "I think" and "I assume" cos it is not my saying to do so. It is Acura's. I repea/reiterate the manual/Acura. See above answer for the rest of it.
____________________________________________

Eric continues praising everyone else exept the people that designed and created the car we all drive:

"We are all here to help each other. And if that means making a better car, then I'm all for it. Ingenuity springs from all of us, and Acura doesn't have a corner on universal knowledge. A lot of us, are trying new ideas and solutions in the "real" world; This allows us to move past, "I think so it must be so..." to "Hey, I found out that these tires I put on are really great.""

If "Hey, I found out that these tires I put on are really great" is enough for you, please, by all means, go ahead and do what you want. I will stick to the manual.

But, do not misundertand me. I will stick to the manual does not mean that I will buy MXMs next. I have already stated that. Sticking to the manual refers only to the size.
____________________________________________

Eric:

"So, I really suggest, that you consider trying out some new option. As I suggested, you can always try out your hypothesis about 215 being better than 225 or 235 by going to a skid pad or just doing a slalom. Prove your point."

Sure, I have so much free time and dont know how to spend it so why dont I put new tires on my new Ferrari and go to the track and test them. Oh and before I do that, I will need to pass by the local store and buy all the necessary testing equipment since they are so cheap and easy to find. Hell, how could I possibly pretend I am in love with my car and call myself a car enthusiast if I can not do that once a week...ah screw it...every evening would be even better.

Relax buddy, remind yourself what you are driving and how much it costs and figure out what tests are VALID and what sources to believe.

------------------
Gabriel
CL Type S

[This message has been edited by gavriil (edited 04-14-2001).]

Technique

hehehe, both of you guys have too much time on your hands.

------------------
Silver CL-S w/ Navi, Spoiler, Wheel Locks, Trunk Tray, 19169, 9005
Toyo 235/45ZR17-97W* T1-S Proxes on 17X8 SSR Competition Wheels (47.2 lbs lighter than stock wheel+tire setup)
Comptech Sways
G-Tech (Full tank of gas, 60F, VSA off, SS) - 5.94 seconds
V-1 Hardwired

EricL

Gavril:

Comment: this is so dead, we should just take this off-line. Now, looking at this, its just plain boring.

We are now at the beating a dead horse phase.

BTW -- I really do think some of the fellow member would make a great engineering team (my opinion). And do watch out about using extremes for comparison... I would explain, but I'm wasting my time.




------------------
Silver 2001 CL-S with NAVI

• Mud guards
• Wheel locks
• Toyo T1S 235/45ZR17-97W* Proxies on 17x8" SSR Competition wheels (48lbs less than stock)
• Kevlar/SS Brake lines ordered
• Comptech headers & sways ready
• Silver AEM CAI ready
• 6 coats of Zaino magic

2Sxy4YoMama

Can we all just get along?

------------------
2001 CL-S Satin Silver/Ebnoy
Spoiler, moonroof visor, 20% Tint,
PIAA 19173/19170
Mobil 1 Oil/Oil Filter
X-Pel/Upgrade Cup Holder
Clifford G4 Solaris Remote Start Car Alarm

Just order: AEM CAI/Denso Iridium Spark Plugs
On its way: Comptech Sway Bar/Brake Line/WS Apexi Coilover

gavriil

Eric, you have started beating the dead horse a long time ago. All I want from you is to be man enough to admit that your initial incorect OPINION that larger tires in general produce less rolling resistance was trully incorect. Just admit it. You were wrong and I was right.

That is what pissed you off the most. You stated publicly that you did 2 months of research on this and then you found out that you had all this backwards. And especially for little gavriil to come out and prove you wrong in public...wow how could you ever admit it.

See how easy it is to prove most of the "mod-freaks" wrong most of the time by just simply following Acura's manual? It is that simple. Stick to the manual and MOST of the time you are making the best all around choice. Trust me, I have went the mod route with other cars many times before and in the end going back to the manual was the best ALL AROUND decision. These guys are not stupid. I have learned that the hard way.

------------------
Gabriel
CL Type S

silverESS

geez guys, go outside and play. or better yet, go for a nice drive. i think i'm gonna put some suds on the car after reading this-i'm depressed

------------------
you are not your fukking signature.

EricL

1. I had good luck modding, sorry about your handicap with cars (and other things).
2. I don't really care about the resistance issue (you sure do). I really like the tires. YOU KEEP USING APPLES TO ORANGES COMPARISONS -- go back to the calculator. Compare a 235/45-17 vs a 215/50-17. Resistance = friction = drag (not grip).
The resistance is "to resist" a resisting force. Get it right -- I pointed you to the calc, but you keep thinking that resistance (drag) is equivalent to the forward application of force. Assumption is the mother of all f*ck-ups.
3. You're assuming that all tires even among a single maker all have the same construction. Just like the issue over how much weight is on each wheel (with a fatso, a child, 2 people, 1 person, etc, etc). Moot point, you are making a deal over numbers that are approximations.


If I really thought I was wrong, I would admit it -- I don't. So, we are entitled to our own opinions. When I think about how specialized tire physics is, this is just getting into I think *and* not I know.

You are wrong!


That's why they call this a pissing contest.



Link to picture of a contact patch:

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/contact.htm

Have a nice day...

(-- end transmission --)


------------------
Silver 2001 CL-S with NAVI

• Mud guards
• Wheel locks
• Toyo T1S 235/45ZR17-97W* Proxies on 17x8" SSR Competition wheels (48lbs less than stock)
• Kevlar/SS Brake lines ordered
• Comptech headers & sways ready
• Silver AEM CAI ready
• 6 coats of Zaino magic

[This message has been edited by EricL (edited 04-14-2001).]