Who are the Top Dogs in Japan?
02-15-2002 | 10:03 PM
#41
Suzuka Master
Joined: Sep 2000
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From: Woodstock, GA
Originally posted by Zapata
bahaehaeh domestic that will perform with an import.....good luck. Besides a push rod and big displacement domestics cars suck ass. Only one i see is the new turboed dodge neon. Even then it's a domestic.
American companies have never gotten "it" and they never will because the majority of the public is too stupid to realize the there is a better product out there. PPL get stuck on this made in the USA crap. As long as Detroit knows that there are suckers that will buy domestics they'll continue to pump out shit year after year.
You comparison sux. Camaro and a wrx are completely different cars that are intended for two different markets.
Camaro vs. Skyline is a better. However, the Skyline will wipe the floor with the Camaro, rustang or whatever else Detroit offers.
bahaehaeh domestic that will perform with an import.....good luck. Besides a push rod and big displacement domestics cars suck ass. Only one i see is the new turboed dodge neon. Even then it's a domestic.
American companies have never gotten "it" and they never will because the majority of the public is too stupid to realize the there is a better product out there. PPL get stuck on this made in the USA crap. As long as Detroit knows that there are suckers that will buy domestics they'll continue to pump out shit year after year.
You comparison sux. Camaro and a wrx are completely different cars that are intended for two different markets.
Camaro vs. Skyline is a better. However, the Skyline will wipe the floor with the Camaro, rustang or whatever else Detroit offers.
BTW, the domestics have been producing the same performance engines as the imports for many years. In fact when you compare technology the domestics are typically there sooner but fall back to traditional means, excluding some cases.
The Cobra is a DOHC engine, the T-Type/GN were running turbo 6s in the mid eighties and turning quick times; low 14s or high 13s stock. Wow, at that same time turbo imports, even with 6 cylinders, were running low 16s or high 15s.
In turbo 4s, Dodge dominated the market with the GLHS in the same era.
Today, we have what in the imports?? The Supra was the nearest competition to the current Z06 but it was not cost effective and cost more by the end of its US run. A 55K Supra turning mid-low 13s or a mid 12 second Z06?? Take it to the road course and the difference may be even greater. And the Vette is still being sold...
Please define how a Skyline which even in comparison to US dollars, sells for more, can wipe the floor with an SS or WS6 TA?? Acceleration and cornering numbers are similar. If GM would bring some of the Holden items to this shore it would make things even more interesting when it comes to useable passenger vehicles.
BTW, an OHC engine is not new technology, the first one was built in 1912, just after pushrods were being widely manufactured. Not directed at this post but most people need to stop with the technology standpoint. If you want technology, why was it that GM was able to get the 3800 Series II pushrod engine LEV rated before Honda could get any of their 6s??
Just to clear the air, I love my Acura as do I love my BMW. In fact I like anything automotive. All vehicles have the shining points regardless of brand. I do find the imports lacking in day to day driving unless at the right rev band, but when you get in that sweet spot the domestics can't compare in the sound and feel.
02-15-2002 | 10:19 PM
#42
Banned
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 5,746
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From: मुंबई, भारत
Originally posted by Zapata
What z06 runs 11's bone stock????????
What z06 runs 11's bone stock????????
I know this guy and he is totally legit.
02-15-2002 | 10:21 PM
#43
Banned
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From: मुंबई, भारत
Originally posted by nt5k
i agree.. plowing into corners is much better..
i agree.. plowing into corners is much better..
02-15-2002 | 10:49 PM
#44
Banned
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 3,427
Likes: 1
From: Orange County, CA
Originally posted by scalbert
Please define how a Skyline which even in comparison to US dollars, sells for more, can wipe the floor with an SS or WS6 TA?? Acceleration and cornering numbers are similar. If GM would bring some of the Holden items to this shore it would make things even more interesting when it comes to useable passenger vehicles.
Please define how a Skyline which even in comparison to US dollars, sells for more, can wipe the floor with an SS or WS6 TA?? Acceleration and cornering numbers are similar. If GM would bring some of the Holden items to this shore it would make things even more interesting when it comes to useable passenger vehicles.
The Skyline comes with just about everything needed out of the box: Brembo brakes, AWD, four wheel steering and plenty of power. In a straight line drag the cars are very comparable but when it comes down to real life performence I'm going to have to easily pick the Skyline.
As for Holden, I too wish GM would import them from Austrailia. They get all the good European and Japanese cars down there.
02-15-2002 | 11:05 PM
#46
Suzuka Master
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 9,431
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From: Woodstock, GA
Originally posted by bioyuki
Granted a Skyline will cost quite a bit more than a Camaro SS or a Trans Am but I think its still a better all around car.
As for Holden, I too wish GM would import them from Austrailia. They get all the good European and Japanese cars down there.
Granted a Skyline will cost quite a bit more than a Camaro SS or a Trans Am but I think its still a better all around car.
As for Holden, I too wish GM would import them from Austrailia. They get all the good European and Japanese cars down there.
I do agree, I would love the 402-horsepower Holden Special Vehicles GTS, if only they would bring this even tamed down.
02-15-2002 | 11:16 PM
#47
Cost Drivers!!!!
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 19,392
Likes: 1
From: burbs of philly
Originally posted by nt5k
yeah i'm tired of this US bashing too.. not like you guys are driving imported cars.. maybe you can blame ohio for everything that is wrong with the car then..
i had a grandam for 120k miles before i sold it. not one problem.. and it handled more predictably and had much cheaper insurance and servicing costs..
have some pride dammit..
yeah i'm tired of this US bashing too.. not like you guys are driving imported cars.. maybe you can blame ohio for everything that is wrong with the car then..
i had a grandam for 120k miles before i sold it. not one problem.. and it handled more predictably and had much cheaper insurance and servicing costs..
have some pride dammit..
02-15-2002 | 11:18 PM
#48
Cost Drivers!!!!
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 19,392
Likes: 1
From: burbs of philly
Originally posted by nt5k
zapata was saying with 50k he could have a fast import.. im guessing this import would be fwd=wrong wheel drive.. and would still have the same traction issues.. anything with 700hp outside of video games is going to have traction issues unless you stick on some slicks.. that's why i think drag racing is idiotic, a measure of how much you can put into car versus autoX where the >driver< is what's important.. what a novel notion..
zapata was saying with 50k he could have a fast import.. im guessing this import would be fwd=wrong wheel drive.. and would still have the same traction issues.. anything with 700hp outside of video games is going to have traction issues unless you stick on some slicks.. that's why i think drag racing is idiotic, a measure of how much you can put into car versus autoX where the >driver< is what's important.. what a novel notion..
02-15-2002 | 11:42 PM
#49
Cost Drivers!!!!
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 19,392
Likes: 1
From: burbs of philly
Cobra, WS6, Vette. All big displacement old style muscle cars. The reason why the supra and skyline haven't taken well to the U.S. market is because most people here want the power from an 8. Both of those cars will probably have v8's when they finally get here in the U.S. Turbo power some how is weak and unrealiable.
I'll take the skyline over the Z06 any day of the week. Sure out of the box the Vette make take the skyline in the 1/4 but REAL racing isn't done a 1/4 at a time. It involves turns. Give me the skyline.
The GN and GNX were the exception to the rule man. F'n GM wouldn't keep that shit around for a few more years. Again, turbos and the american public haven't mixed to this point.
Different view points i guess. Bang for the buck v. bang. Gimmie bang for the buck.
I'll take the skyline over the Z06 any day of the week. Sure out of the box the Vette make take the skyline in the 1/4 but REAL racing isn't done a 1/4 at a time. It involves turns. Give me the skyline.
The GN and GNX were the exception to the rule man. F'n GM wouldn't keep that shit around for a few more years. Again, turbos and the american public haven't mixed to this point.
Different view points i guess. Bang for the buck v. bang. Gimmie bang for the buck.
Originally posted by scalbert
Extremely flawed points, meant as a friendly jab!! An assumption that the general public is stupid because they don’t agree with your ideas is very ignorant. It is great we have the selection in vehicles to suit all tastes.
BTW, the domestics have been producing the same performance engines as the imports for many years. In fact when you compare technology the domestics are typically there sooner but fall back to traditional means, excluding some cases.
The Cobra is a DOHC engine, the T-Type/GN were running turbo 6s in the mid eighties and turning quick times; low 14s or high 13s stock. Wow, at that same time turbo imports, even with 6 cylinders, were running low 16s or high 15s.
In turbo 4s, Dodge dominated the market with the GLHS in the same era.
Today, we have what in the imports?? The Supra was the nearest competition to the current Z06 but it was not cost effective and cost more by the end of its US run. A 55K Supra turning mid-low 13s or a mid 12 second Z06?? Take it to the road course and the difference may be even greater. And the Vette is still being sold...
Please define how a Skyline which even in comparison to US dollars, sells for more, can wipe the floor with an SS or WS6 TA?? Acceleration and cornering numbers are similar. If GM would bring some of the Holden items to this shore it would make things even more interesting when it comes to useable passenger vehicles.
BTW, an OHC engine is not new technology, the first one was built in 1912, just after pushrods were being widely manufactured. Not directed at this post but most people need to stop with the technology standpoint. If you want technology, why was it that GM was able to get the 3800 Series II pushrod engine LEV rated before Honda could get any of their 6s??
Just to clear the air, I love my Acura as do I love my BMW. In fact I like anything automotive. All vehicles have the shining points regardless of brand. I do find the imports lacking in day to day driving unless at the right rev band, but when you get in that sweet spot the domestics can't compare in the sound and feel.
Extremely flawed points, meant as a friendly jab!! An assumption that the general public is stupid because they don’t agree with your ideas is very ignorant. It is great we have the selection in vehicles to suit all tastes.
BTW, the domestics have been producing the same performance engines as the imports for many years. In fact when you compare technology the domestics are typically there sooner but fall back to traditional means, excluding some cases.
The Cobra is a DOHC engine, the T-Type/GN were running turbo 6s in the mid eighties and turning quick times; low 14s or high 13s stock. Wow, at that same time turbo imports, even with 6 cylinders, were running low 16s or high 15s.
In turbo 4s, Dodge dominated the market with the GLHS in the same era.
Today, we have what in the imports?? The Supra was the nearest competition to the current Z06 but it was not cost effective and cost more by the end of its US run. A 55K Supra turning mid-low 13s or a mid 12 second Z06?? Take it to the road course and the difference may be even greater. And the Vette is still being sold...
Please define how a Skyline which even in comparison to US dollars, sells for more, can wipe the floor with an SS or WS6 TA?? Acceleration and cornering numbers are similar. If GM would bring some of the Holden items to this shore it would make things even more interesting when it comes to useable passenger vehicles.
BTW, an OHC engine is not new technology, the first one was built in 1912, just after pushrods were being widely manufactured. Not directed at this post but most people need to stop with the technology standpoint. If you want technology, why was it that GM was able to get the 3800 Series II pushrod engine LEV rated before Honda could get any of their 6s??
Just to clear the air, I love my Acura as do I love my BMW. In fact I like anything automotive. All vehicles have the shining points regardless of brand. I do find the imports lacking in day to day driving unless at the right rev band, but when you get in that sweet spot the domestics can't compare in the sound and feel.
02-15-2002 | 11:55 PM
#50
Suzuka Master
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 9,431
Likes: 0
From: Woodstock, GA
Originally posted by Zapata
I'll take the skyline over the Z06 any day of the week. Sure out of the box the Vette make take the skyline in the 1/4 but REAL racing isn't done a 1/4 at a time. It involves turns. Give me the skyline.
I'll take the skyline over the Z06 any day of the week. Sure out of the box the Vette make take the skyline in the 1/4 but REAL racing isn't done a 1/4 at a time. It involves turns. Give me the skyline.
Including the exotics, there are few street legal cars that can hang with a Z06 on the road course. This is not a discredit to the Skyline, but the Z06 is impressive regardless of price range and track decision (BTW, it is better on the road course than it is on the strip).
But in the end it is always a matter of preferences…
02-15-2002 | 11:59 PM
#51
www.drippinwet.com
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,028
Likes: 0
From: Kingston, Pennsylvania
Originally posted by scalbert
Given the choice, I'd take a smaller displacement turbo vehicle. However the Skyline will not touch the Z06 in any matter.
Including the exotics, there are few street legal cars that can hang with a Z06 on the road course. This is not a discredit to the Skyline, but the Z06 is impressive regardless of price range and track decision (BTW, it is better on the road course than it is on the strip).
But in the end it is always a matter of preferences…
Given the choice, I'd take a smaller displacement turbo vehicle. However the Skyline will not touch the Z06 in any matter.
Including the exotics, there are few street legal cars that can hang with a Z06 on the road course. This is not a discredit to the Skyline, but the Z06 is impressive regardless of price range and track decision (BTW, it is better on the road course than it is on the strip).
But in the end it is always a matter of preferences…
02-16-2002 | 12:09 AM
#53
Banned
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 3,427
Likes: 1
From: Orange County, CA
Originally posted by scalbert
Given the choice, I'd take a smaller displacement turbo vehicle. However the Skyline will not touch the Z06 in any matter.
Including the exotics, there are few street legal cars that can hang with a Z06 on the road course. This is not a discredit to the Skyline, but the Z06 is impressive regardless of price range and track decision (BTW, it is better on the road course than it is on the strip).
But in the end it is always a matter of preferences…
Given the choice, I'd take a smaller displacement turbo vehicle. However the Skyline will not touch the Z06 in any matter.
Including the exotics, there are few street legal cars that can hang with a Z06 on the road course. This is not a discredit to the Skyline, but the Z06 is impressive regardless of price range and track decision (BTW, it is better on the road course than it is on the strip).
But in the end it is always a matter of preferences…
02-16-2002 | 12:20 AM
#55
Suzuka Master
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 9,431
Likes: 0
From: Woodstock, GA
Originally posted by bioyuki
Has the Z06 been tested at the Nurburgring track? I know the Viper GTS was...
Has the Z06 been tested at the Nurburgring track? I know the Viper GTS was...
02-16-2002 | 12:29 AM
#56
Banned
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 3,427
Likes: 1
From: Orange County, CA
Originally posted by scalbert
That I do not know, but would love to see.
That I do not know, but would love to see.
02-16-2002 | 01:07 AM
#57
Suzuka Master
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 8,546
Likes: 0
From: Santa Clarita, CA
Originally posted by Nashua_Night_Hawk
The most impressive thing about the Z06 is its HW 28 MPG!!!
In real life, It is even better than the CLS....
The most impressive thing about the Z06 is its HW 28 MPG!!!
In real life, It is even better than the CLS....
In general, manuals are more fuel friendly than autos, but I realize what youre trying to say and it is surprising.
Comment about Honda and Low torque.
That's their philosophy, high fuel efficiency.
The Indy Racing League engines are even known for that too.
2.1mpg doesnt mean much, but its a matter of who can cross the finish line
02-16-2002 | 01:34 AM
#58
Cost Drivers!!!!
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 19,392
Likes: 1
From: burbs of philly
Originally posted by scalbert
Given the choice, I'd take a smaller displacement turbo vehicle. However the Skyline will not touch the Z06 in any matter.
Including the exotics, there are few street legal cars that can hang with a Z06 on the road course. This is not a discredit to the Skyline, but the Z06 is impressive regardless of price range and track decision (BTW, it is better on the road course than it is on the strip).
But in the end it is always a matter of preferences…
Given the choice, I'd take a smaller displacement turbo vehicle. However the Skyline will not touch the Z06 in any matter.
Including the exotics, there are few street legal cars that can hang with a Z06 on the road course. This is not a discredit to the Skyline, but the Z06 is impressive regardless of price range and track decision (BTW, it is better on the road course than it is on the strip).
But in the end it is always a matter of preferences…
Agreed a matter of preferences.
02-16-2002 | 02:51 AM
#59
Shift_3.5 Auto
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 914
Likes: 0
From: MD <> VA
Originally posted by nt5k
yeah i'm tired of this US bashing too.. not like you guys are driving imported cars.. maybe you can blame ohio for everything that is wrong with the car then..
i had a grandam for 120k miles before i sold it. not one problem.. and it handled more predictably and had much cheaper insurance and servicing costs..
have some pride dammit..
yeah i'm tired of this US bashing too.. not like you guys are driving imported cars.. maybe you can blame ohio for everything that is wrong with the car then..
i had a grandam for 120k miles before i sold it. not one problem.. and it handled more predictably and had much cheaper insurance and servicing costs..
have some pride dammit..
I do agree with the american superior truck thing. US has some bad-ass trucks.
02-16-2002 | 05:45 AM
#60
Suzuka Master
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 8,546
Likes: 0
From: Santa Clarita, CA
Originally posted by ThoroDredCLS
Not to join the debate, but since acura has been making their cars in the US they have lost a lot of credability, Reliability and Quality. I DO blame Acura for American cross-over built crap. The legends were far better cars. If the CLS was made in Japan and imported they would have done a better job. Of course we would pay more for parts and the import but, look at Lexus = no problems! I do agree with the american superior truck thing. US has some bad-ass trucks.
Not to join the debate, but since acura has been making their cars in the US they have lost a lot of credability, Reliability and Quality. I DO blame Acura for American cross-over built crap. The legends were far better cars. If the CLS was made in Japan and imported they would have done a better job. Of course we would pay more for parts and the import but, look at Lexus = no problems!
I do agree with the american superior truck thing. US has some bad-ass trucks.
the fact that youre reading this board, you know much more than the uninformed public about the CLS. And it's hard to say considering we don't read the lexus forums, to get a sense of the scope of their problems.
But I do know some friends who have '01 IS300s and as a first gen design model, they have their troubles too. And yes they've had the 2.2 IS200 in Europe and Asia for quite sometime.
------------------------------
Since we're on the subject of Lexus, for the fun of it, let's compare the '02 ES300 to the '02 TLS w/Nav , keyword being TLS, since its the closest model with similarities to the CL and 4 doors. And they both have the same market value of roughly ~31.8k right now.
(by the way, on the lexus website, they dont allow you to compare the TLS with the ES, only the TLP haha I find that hilarious)
TLS:
Acceleration (0-60 mph): 6.6
Braking Distance (60-0 mph): 129
Roadholding Index: NA
Base Number of Cylinders: 6
Base Engine Size: 3.2 liters
Base Engine Type: V6
Horsepower: 260 hp @ 6100 rpm
Torque: 232 ft-lbs. @ 3500 rpm
Turning Circle: 39.7 ft.
Drive Type: FWD
ES:
Acceleration (0-60 mph): NA
Braking Distance (60-0 mph): NA
Roadholding Index: NA
Base Number of Cylinders: 6
Base Engine Size: 3 liters
Base Engine Type: V6
Horsepower: 210 hp @ 5800 rpm
Torque: 220 ft-lbs. @ 4400 rpm
Turning Circle: 36.1 ft.
Drive Type: FWD
------------------
ES optional equipment:
High Intensity Discharge
Leather Trimmed Seats
Front Power Memory Seats
Front Heated Seat
CD Changer (only a single in-dash)
Mark Levinson Audio
NAVI
TLS:
all standard
no premium audio :P
------------------
So, whats the moral of this story?
TL w/NAV has much more goodies than a base ES300
(and please, the aesthetics aren't even worth mentioning
)
02-16-2002 | 08:40 AM
#61
Instructor
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 209
Likes: 0
From: Atlanta, GA
Originally posted by Zapata
Pride in what exactly???? Some fucking consumer product? They don't give a shit about anything except that check i send them every month and i don't give shit about them. Pride in what?????
Pride in what exactly???? Some fucking consumer product? They don't give a shit about anything except that check i send them every month and i don't give shit about them. Pride in what?????
and it is cheaper to make something high displacement rather go through the development costs of extracting huge power from tiny engines, with usally no torque.. its cheaper, but it doesn't make it worse. displacement/high compression/turbos/NA/high Revs are all different ways to get the same thing. They all have their pluses and minuses. I don't think there is a 'right' one, just a right one for you and what you plan to do with it..
And I'm assuming that a large part of the US can't afford the imports which costs more and offer , in most cases, less usable torque and smaller interiors.. i wouldn't count on the US companies falling asleep at the wheel, even cadillac is out with a near-3-series fighter in the CTS, with a true RWD platform developed at the Nurburgring. And with talk of bringing over holdens the future looks better..
japan has huge taxes for cars over 2liter so the companies there have been forced to make due with that and put more money into the technology side of things. given free control I'm sure they would have gone the big displacement way as well.. But there is alot that the two countries can learn from each other and I think the future of cars from both sides of the pond look great..
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