What activates the Second Stage Induction?
04-19-2001, 10:06 AM
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What activates the Second Stage Induction?
Okay guys, I know this ain't my territory, so I hope I'm not intruding too much. I am in the mists of having a CL-S Intake Manifold and Throttle Body mated to my j30a1 head, along with CL-S camshafts to take advantage of the extra air, and a Apex'i V-AFC to handle the air/fuel management along with ajusting the VTEC engagement to properly suit the power band created, all being properly dyno tuned to ensure optimal hp extracted. All work will more than likely be done by Dr. Charles at Atomic Performance. Intake Manifold and TB are here, but I still need to order the camshafts and v-afc. Here's my question. What exactly operates the second stage rotor (throttle rotor lookalike) to open the inner chamber wall within the intake manifold? Is it vacuum pressure driven or is the cable tugged on by a sensor readout by a separate control module (computer)? I'm sure you're first response would be, just find out at an Acura Dealership, and I guess I could always go down to the local Acura dealership and ask them, but I'm lookin for an answer here n now and not this weekend if I can find one, if not coo, I need to go down there to check out the logistics of it anyways.
Kenny aka F=ma from the Acura-tl.com board pointed me in this direction, specifically to one person but the SHO board got wiped out a long with the thread containing the information and the name of the guy that would know (not that any of you wouldn't know but evidently this guy is supposed to be who CL owners go to, to find out various information pertaining to their cars I guess?. I'd appreciate any information you can give me. Thank you for your time...
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-=SoCalV6=-
1999 TW Accord EX v6 Cpe
aka Valentine with some show 'n go.
04-19-2001, 10:58 AM
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Not exactly sure, but I think the "computer" tells the actuator to tug on a cable and open the plenum.
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01 CL-S San Marino Red/Black, K&N drop in, no nav, rear wing, otherwise stock thus far, has an appetite for Bavarian cars.
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01 CL-S San Marino Red/Black, K&N drop in, no nav, rear wing, otherwise stock thus far, has an appetite for Bavarian cars.
04-19-2001, 03:33 PM
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At 3600 RPM, the ECU signals a 12V actuator located on the rear cylinder head cover to pull the cable acuated butterfly open (spring returned). This Actuator is soley RPM triggered - this is your tuning tip of the day!!! I'm not convinced of your power gains on the -S cams when your ECU is going to fuel chop B4 6300 RPM. And the early J30 motors were Distributor based using the rear of the cam to drive the rotor. The J32A2 cams do not accomodate for the distributor. Bigger cams and Larger Plenum will help upper end breathing if the ECU will let you up there. The J30A heads are small valve / small port units and may choke your gains. We have spent some time with this "type" of set-up and for the $$, we were not convinced it was viable. Find a -S that was a total loss and swap the drivetrain with the ECU harness and ECU. That would be more cost effective and significantly quicker than this set-up.
04-19-2001, 03:54 PM
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you may be looking for Jens Heydal... that's who cry to when we break stuff ... 
------------------
Black 2001 Type S
*Eibach Pro-Kit (Waiting to be installed)
*Xephyr Cold Air Intake
*PIAA 19169 Road Lamps
*Rockford 500a2 [FOR SALE]
*Pioneer 12" @ 400w (x2) [FOR SALE]
*77237-SOK-A02
---Still 2 rims not scratched---
------------------
Black 2001 Type S
*Eibach Pro-Kit (Waiting to be installed)
*Xephyr Cold Air Intake
*PIAA 19169 Road Lamps
*Rockford 500a2 [FOR SALE]
*Pioneer 12" @ 400w (x2) [FOR SALE]
*77237-SOK-A02
---Still 2 rims not scratched---
04-19-2001, 04:16 PM
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by syncivic:
At 3600 RPM, the ECU signals a 12V actuator located on the rear cylinder head cover to pull the cable acuated butterfly open (spring returned). This Actuator is soley RPM triggered - this is your tuning tip of the day!!! I'm not convinced of your power gains on the -S cams when your ECU is going to fuel chop B4 6300 RPM. And the early J30 motors were Distributor based using the rear of the cam to drive the rotor. The J32A2 cams do not accomodate for the distributor. Bigger cams and Larger Plenum will help upper end breathing if the ECU will let you up there. The J30A heads are small valve / small port units and may choke your gains. We have spent some time with this "type" of set-up and for the $$, we were not convinced it was viable. Find a -S that was a total loss and swap the drivetrain with the ECU harness and ECU. That would be more cost effective and significantly quicker than this set-up.</font>
At 3600 RPM, the ECU signals a 12V actuator located on the rear cylinder head cover to pull the cable acuated butterfly open (spring returned). This Actuator is soley RPM triggered - this is your tuning tip of the day!!! I'm not convinced of your power gains on the -S cams when your ECU is going to fuel chop B4 6300 RPM. And the early J30 motors were Distributor based using the rear of the cam to drive the rotor. The J32A2 cams do not accomodate for the distributor. Bigger cams and Larger Plenum will help upper end breathing if the ECU will let you up there. The J30A heads are small valve / small port units and may choke your gains. We have spent some time with this "type" of set-up and for the $$, we were not convinced it was viable. Find a -S that was a total loss and swap the drivetrain with the ECU harness and ECU. That would be more cost effective and significantly quicker than this set-up.</font>
Not to be picky or anything, but the 2nd stage doesn't trigger unitl the RPM's EXCEED 3800. I've tested my 2nd stage and it doesn't trigger until 3900 RPM. The 3600 RPM you quoted is too low. The ACURA web site will back me up on this.
04-19-2001, 06:08 PM
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by syncivic:
At 3600 RPM, the ECU signals a 12V actuator located on the rear cylinder head cover to pull the cable acuated butterfly open (spring returned). This Actuator is soley RPM triggered - </font>
At 3600 RPM, the ECU signals a 12V actuator located on the rear cylinder head cover to pull the cable acuated butterfly open (spring returned). This Actuator is soley RPM triggered - </font>
The PCM does command the actuator motor to open the valve and is RPM related only. But it does so by grounding the cicuit to the IMRC control module (most cars use 12Vdc negative true logic in control of items requiring digital I/O). The IMRC control module then sends 12VDC to the actuator motor. There is no check by the PCM to know if it actually opened though.
In the original posters case, an external RPM switch could be used to actuate the motor. This would allow you to open it at the desired engine speed (I'd stick with the factory rnage though).
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04-20-2001, 03:07 AM
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Yep, that's the name of the guy. Thanx for refreshing my memory, but it looks like I got some good answers right here as well.
BTW TRDSolara, yes I'm the guy in Alta Loma with the Accord. Is this Jason? I thought you might be on this site since you said your friend has a CL-S.
Hmm, okay, first off, this IMRC Control Module, since the PCM grounds the signal to this normaly to get it to signal the activator motor to open the throttle rotor, I wouldn't be able to get my PCM do this for obvious reasons due to it not having the program within it for a second stage induction rpm switch. However, since you're sayin the PCM has no readout to determine whether or not it's been opened, this also means having it opened by an external switch wouldn't screw with my stock PCM, correct, or are you pointing this out to say specifically that I can use an external switch and not have to use a CL-S PCM (ECU) and the wiring harness swapped over?
In anycase, is this actuator motor contained within the IMRC Module or is it separate from it as an external object? So I'd have to purchase this actuator motor and the IMRC Module separately if so and wire them together a long with a the cable to pull on the rotor and an "RPM switch". I assume possibly the cable is part of the actuator motor though aswell maybe? Now, when you say an rpm related switch, is this specific RPM related switch product, or something that would is normally just used to ground the connection to anything and you'd then wire it to the IMRC to activate it, ofcourse then how would you correlate it to the RPMs, so I'm gonna guess that you're talking about a specific product that's actually used as an RPM switch to activate things based on what you're using it for.
I'm grateful you took notice to this Syncivic, as I have read about your upgrades to the j32a2 engines. From what you're sayin though, I'm not likin the sound of it. I figured the higher flow inlet on the intake valves of the j32a2 head would hold me back from some hp, but I didn't know the valves themselves or the ports were really any bigger or smaller, other than the smoothened inlet ofcourse. And indeed I don't have the direct ignition setup, but I'm not totally clear as to how you say the distributor rely's on the cam. Do you mean that it spins based off the camshaft or cam spinning since it is located directly by the rear valve cover, and if so, then I guess the j32a2 cams wouldn't be setup to handle that since they're direct ignition, but I wasn't planning on swapping cams, just the camshafts, so I'd think swapping the camshafts wouldn't affect my j30a1 rear cam spinning the distributor. Please elaborate as I'm not mechanically inclined.
But, if you're sayin the camshafts wouldn't help until after 6300 then I guess they'd be no use to me then, but I'd think they'd help a little at least around 4-6, but maybe not as much as they're meant to up in the 6-7 range. Hmm, I wasn't really sure whether the CL-S camshafts had more aggressive lobe profiles in the first place, so perhaps it best that I hadn't ordered them yet. And again from what you're saying, the real gains to be had from all the added breathing ability are in the 6-7 grand range, which is exactly where I can't go. Since the second stage is activated so early (3800 rpms), I'd think there would be indeed gains to be had there, but ofcourse the bottleneck to that is my j30a1 head so even if more air is being stuff down, the head can't take full advantage of it anyways to be combusted. Hmmmm, well believe me when I say I'd luv to have the entire engine a long with 5 spd auto tranny and ecu to control it, but 10g engines and 3g tranny's dont seem much like an option right now, and every totaled CL-S I've seen have all been hit in the front. And yes, everyone would next say, just upgrade to a CL-S or TL-S, but then that defeats the whole purpose of buyin a car you like and upgrading it from there on out, as the CL's shape and pillar layout is not my style.
So I think I will still have to go forward with this project, though the gains might not even show themselves period, or show themselves to the most optimal ability due to my head.
Any further opinions or thoughts on this matter would be greatly appreciated, and thank you for all who took the time to answer.
------------------
-=SoCalV6=-
1999 TW Accord EX v6 Cpe
aka Valentine with some show 'n go.
*Comptech Headers, Sways, V6 Oil Cap/Batt TD
*WeaponR Circuit Pros,CF Intake, Dragon Filter, FPR, Breather, Coo Res, G-Spec Floors, 4-PTs
*Koni Yellows
*18/7.5/+40 Volk TE37s
*225/40/18 Nitto NT-555s
*Tanabe Hyper Medals
*PIAA Hi's,lo's,Fogs, Wedge
*Nology HotWires,Powercore Ig Amp
*Razo Pedals, NE AT Knob
*GD2000BW, WW Touring Wing
04-20-2001, 03:12 AM
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by -=SoCalV6=-:
Yep, that's the name of the guy. Thanx for refreshing my memory, but it looks like I got some good answers right here as well.
BTW TRDSolara, yes I'm the guy in Alta Loma with the Accord. Is this Jason? I thought you might be on this site since you said your friend has a CL-S.
Hmm, okay, first off, this IMRC Control Module, since the PCM grounds the signal to this normaly to get it to signal the activator motor to open the throttle rotor, I wouldn't be able to get my PCM do this for obvious reasons due to it not having the program within it for a second stage induction rpm switch. However, since you're sayin the PCM has no readout to determine whether or not it's been opened, this also means having it opened by an external switch wouldn't screw with my stock PCM, correct, or are you pointing this out to say specifically that I can use an external switch and not have to use a CL-S PCM (ECU) and the wiring harness swapped over?
In anycase, is this actuator motor contained within the IMRC Module or is it separate from it as an external object? So I'd have to purchase this actuator motor and the IMRC Module separately if so and wire them together a long with a the cable to pull on the rotor and an "RPM switch". I assume possibly the cable is part of the actuator motor though aswell maybe? Now, when you say an rpm related switch, is this specific RPM related switch product, or something that would is normally just used to ground the connection to anything and you'd then wire it to the IMRC to activate it, ofcourse then how would you correlate it to the RPMs, so I'm gonna guess that you're talking about a specific product that's actually used as an RPM switch to activate things based on what you're using it for.
I'm grateful you took notice to this Syncivic, as I have read about your upgrades to the j32a2 engines. From what you're sayin though, I'm not likin the sound of it. I figured the higher flow inlet on the intake valves of the j32a2 head would hold me back from some hp, but I didn't know the valves themselves or the ports were really any bigger or smaller, other than the smoothened inlet ofcourse. And indeed I don't have the direct ignition setup, but I'm not totally clear as to how you say the distributor rely's on the cam. Do you mean that it spins based off the camshaft or cam spinning since it is located directly by the rear valve cover, and if so, then I guess the j32a2 cams wouldn't be setup to handle that since they're direct ignition, but I wasn't planning on swapping cams, just the camshafts, so I'd think swapping the camshafts wouldn't affect my j30a1 rear cam spinning the distributor. Please elaborate as I'm not mechanically inclined.
But, if you're sayin the camshafts wouldn't help until after 6300 then I guess they'd be no use to me then, but I'd think they'd help a little at least around 4-6, but maybe not as much as they're meant to up in the 6-7 range. Hmm, I wasn't really sure whether the CL-S camshafts had more aggressive lobe profiles in the first place, so perhaps it best that I hadn't ordered them yet. And again from what you're saying, the real gains to be had from all the added breathing ability are in the 6-7 grand range, which is exactly where I can't go. Since the second stage is activated so early (3800 rpms), I'd think there would be indeed gains to be had there, but ofcourse the bottleneck to that is my j30a1 head so even if more air is being stuff down, the head can't take full advantage of it anyways to be combusted. Hmmmm, well believe me when I say I'd luv to have the entire engine a long with 5 spd auto tranny and ecu to control it, but 10g engines and 3g tranny's dont seem much like an option right now, and every totaled CL-S I've seen have all been hit in the front. And yes, everyone would next say, just upgrade to a CL-S or TL-S, but then that defeats the whole purpose of buyin a car you like and upgrading it from there on out, as the CL's shape and pillar layout is not my style.
So I think I will still have to go forward with this project, though the gains might not even show themselves period, or show themselves to the most optimal ability due to my head.
Any further opinions or thoughts on this matter would be greatly appreciated, and thank you for all who took the time to answer.
</font>
Yep, that's the name of the guy. Thanx for refreshing my memory, but it looks like I got some good answers right here as well.
BTW TRDSolara, yes I'm the guy in Alta Loma with the Accord. Is this Jason? I thought you might be on this site since you said your friend has a CL-S.
Hmm, okay, first off, this IMRC Control Module, since the PCM grounds the signal to this normaly to get it to signal the activator motor to open the throttle rotor, I wouldn't be able to get my PCM do this for obvious reasons due to it not having the program within it for a second stage induction rpm switch. However, since you're sayin the PCM has no readout to determine whether or not it's been opened, this also means having it opened by an external switch wouldn't screw with my stock PCM, correct, or are you pointing this out to say specifically that I can use an external switch and not have to use a CL-S PCM (ECU) and the wiring harness swapped over?
In anycase, is this actuator motor contained within the IMRC Module or is it separate from it as an external object? So I'd have to purchase this actuator motor and the IMRC Module separately if so and wire them together a long with a the cable to pull on the rotor and an "RPM switch". I assume possibly the cable is part of the actuator motor though aswell maybe? Now, when you say an rpm related switch, is this specific RPM related switch product, or something that would is normally just used to ground the connection to anything and you'd then wire it to the IMRC to activate it, ofcourse then how would you correlate it to the RPMs, so I'm gonna guess that you're talking about a specific product that's actually used as an RPM switch to activate things based on what you're using it for.
I'm grateful you took notice to this Syncivic, as I have read about your upgrades to the j32a2 engines. From what you're sayin though, I'm not likin the sound of it. I figured the higher flow inlet on the intake valves of the j32a2 head would hold me back from some hp, but I didn't know the valves themselves or the ports were really any bigger or smaller, other than the smoothened inlet ofcourse. And indeed I don't have the direct ignition setup, but I'm not totally clear as to how you say the distributor rely's on the cam. Do you mean that it spins based off the camshaft or cam spinning since it is located directly by the rear valve cover, and if so, then I guess the j32a2 cams wouldn't be setup to handle that since they're direct ignition, but I wasn't planning on swapping cams, just the camshafts, so I'd think swapping the camshafts wouldn't affect my j30a1 rear cam spinning the distributor. Please elaborate as I'm not mechanically inclined.
But, if you're sayin the camshafts wouldn't help until after 6300 then I guess they'd be no use to me then, but I'd think they'd help a little at least around 4-6, but maybe not as much as they're meant to up in the 6-7 range. Hmm, I wasn't really sure whether the CL-S camshafts had more aggressive lobe profiles in the first place, so perhaps it best that I hadn't ordered them yet. And again from what you're saying, the real gains to be had from all the added breathing ability are in the 6-7 grand range, which is exactly where I can't go. Since the second stage is activated so early (3800 rpms), I'd think there would be indeed gains to be had there, but ofcourse the bottleneck to that is my j30a1 head so even if more air is being stuff down, the head can't take full advantage of it anyways to be combusted. Hmmmm, well believe me when I say I'd luv to have the entire engine a long with 5 spd auto tranny and ecu to control it, but 10g engines and 3g tranny's dont seem much like an option right now, and every totaled CL-S I've seen have all been hit in the front. And yes, everyone would next say, just upgrade to a CL-S or TL-S, but then that defeats the whole purpose of buyin a car you like and upgrading it from there on out, as the CL's shape and pillar layout is not my style.
So I think I will still have to go forward with this project, though the gains might not even show themselves period, or show themselves to the most optimal ability due to my head.
Any further opinions or thoughts on this matter would be greatly appreciated, and thank you for all who took the time to answer.
</font>
good luck with your mods. tell us how it goes.
------------------
'01 cl-s blk/blk :: comptech headers, comptech springs, comptech sway bars
04-20-2001, 03:17 AM
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BTW, after re-reading again, SCalbert, are you sayin I wouldn't even need the IMRC Module and instead just by-pass that and use n RPM switch to send 12v to the actuator/activator motor to pull on the rotor cable, or you sayin I'd use a switch, ground the connection the IMRC, to then send the 12v to the motor to pull the cable? I'm thinkin about it here, and I guess there's really no where to "plug" in the IMRC so to speak, so I wouldn't really be able use that. So I have to directly bypass that and use this "RPM Switch" to activate the actuator to pull the cable. So I guess that answers my question of whether the actuator motor is separate from the IMRC module? I sure hope so if I don't have to/can't use the IMRC module anyways and all I need is the actuator motor. Thanks for your time.
------------------
-=SoCalV6=-
1999 TW Accord EX v6 Cpe
aka Valentine with some show 'n go.
*Comptech Headers, Sways, V6 Oil Cap/Batt TD
*WeaponR Circuit Pros,CF Intake, Dragon Filter, FPR, Breather, Coo Res, G-Spec Floors, 4-PTs
*Koni Yellows
*18/7.5/+40 Volk TE37s
*225/40/18 Nitto NT-555s
*Tanabe Hyper Medals
*PIAA Hi's,lo's,Fogs, Wedge
*Nology HotWires,Powercore Ig Amp
*Razo Pedals, NE AT Knob
*GD2000BW, WW Touring Wing
04-20-2001, 03:22 AM
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Wow, what a coincidence. Nice name there SoCalTypeS
. Thanks for the compliments. I'll keep anyone who's interested up to date on the outcome, be it good or bad.
04-20-2001, 10:06 AM
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by -=SoCalV6=-:
BTW, after re-reading again, SCalbert, are you sayin I wouldn't even need the IMRC Module and instead just by-pass that and use n RPM switch to send 12v to the actuator/activator motor to pull on the rotor cable, or you sayin I'd use a switch, ground the connection the IMRC, to then send the 12v to the motor to pull the cable? </font>
BTW, after re-reading again, SCalbert, are you sayin I wouldn't even need the IMRC Module and instead just by-pass that and use n RPM switch to send 12v to the actuator/activator motor to pull on the rotor cable, or you sayin I'd use a switch, ground the connection the IMRC, to then send the 12v to the motor to pull the cable? </font>
You may have to incoprporate a relay (I'm not sure of the current draw from the actuator motor), but probably not. Just properly fuse it...
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