gavriil

Spent Saturday to Saturday of last week in San Fran. Specifically San Matteo where the hotel was at. I rented a 2004 Altima (4 cylinder) for 2 days and then got a 2003 (last year of previous generation) V6 Maxima for 5 days.

I have spent time with the ALtima in the past. Twice. Once in Las Vegas for 4 days and once in Langley, VA when visiting NASA for another 4 days. There was a significant difference in build quality between the 2 because the Las Vegas car was the first year the ALtima was out. Fit and finish improved a lot and I reconfirmed this time in San Fran.





It was a 4 cylinder with an automatic. The engine is one of the largest 4 cylinder engines in production, at 2.5 liters. The 175 HP and 180 pounds of torque are totally confirmed with the buttmeter because, I tell yea, this car does not need more power, one would think (till possibly you drove the V6 which I can only imagine from my experience with that engine in a Maxima - later on that).

The suspension this time though felt a lot floatier than the last Altima I drove. It was a little tighter than a base Taurus car which I usually get from Hertz and I hate driving. The steering, also too light, though more acurate than that in a Taurus.

Moderately acurate steering at the least is a must at San Fran because 101 has the tiniest lanes (in terms of width) I have ever driven on. Coming back to Chicago, I felt it was a piece of cake to drive. Plus I hate the fact that they dont use clearly marked white markings and you solely depend on the steel bumper thingies that feel like are killing your tires when on. ANd you are on them A LOT, if you are used to wider lanes like me.

Doing 80mph with the Altima felt like 60, just like in our CLS.



Again, the engine has ample punch. Truly, if on a budget, you dont really need more power. Yes, it shakes at idle like any I4 and sure it lacks torque at very low rpm, but it is always willing at mid and high revs. Nothing wrong with the automatic tranny either. It's a 4 speed tranny with no sportshift option, but Nissan made it easy to go from D4 to D3 or lower quickly. That's all you need to make sure you are at the right gear.

Curb weight of the ALtima is 3000 pounds. So it's quick on its feet with 175HP at 6000 rpm.








The interior was without leather and all the options, but it was well equipped. What I missed the most, compared to my CLS, is the digital/auto HVAC. This is a feature that I cant live without now that I know its benefits. Set it to 73 and let the computer do the work. Actually, this feature has room for improvement. For anyone that remembers from school, the human body does not only depend on temperature readings to get that "feel cold/warm feeling". It's also the humidity level that makes a big difference (dew point, etc). So if our interior thermometer also combined its readings with a humidity meter and used the computer to do some simple calculations, then the reading would be more acurate. So if sometimes you set yours at 71 and sometimes at 75, it's not because your HVAC is broken, it's because the humidity level is totally different. So now by setting it at 73, you are telling the computer to make it FEEL LIKE 73, which is what you really care about.

Enough blabbing...back to the car review....

Everything inside the Altima feels cheaper to the touch as compared to our CL/S but Altima is not pretending to be a lux vehicle. Or entry lux. Or whatever the CLS is...

But things like "auto window down" on passenger and driver are things that remind you that, no one thinks of everything even in the luxury segment. And, again...that's a...base Altima.

Third day comes and due to a reservation switch which was a MUST (long story why), I get back to Hertz to give back the ALtima and get the next rental. All along, I am thinking, please dont give me the dreaded Taurus.

Sure enough, they did not. Instead they did me a favor. They upgraded me to a Maxima. I am thinking, great! Then I am thinking, but this is a 2003 Maxima which inside it's the same as an Altima as far as room, but hey...cant complain. So I basically fell I got the same car pretty much, but expect its interior to be totally different.





Well, I was wrong twice. First thing I did was open the hood to see if the 4 cylinder engine is the same in there. To my surprise it's the V6 engine from I35/G35/Z/Quest, etc. Wow! Oh yes! The 2003 Maxima came with that engine as the only option!

So 255HP at a low 5800 rpm and 246 pounds at 4400 rpm. I am thinking, I wonder how this engine will feel in the Maxima. I have read so much about it and have driven 2 of its iterations (G35C and in the Z) but never in the mainstream action.



The second thing I was wrong about was the fact that I thought the interior would have been different than that in the Altima. I should have known better. I mean, I do know very well that Nissan has made science out of using the same parts on so many different vehicles.

The interior is about 70% THE SAME! Well, there was a moonroof in the Maxima that the Altima did not have and the center dashboard is layed differently but, so many other things are the same.



ALthough the above pic shows a well optioned Maxima, mine had cloth seats, etc. After all it's a rental.

Sitting on the seats, first thought, "oh man, these are SO uncomfortable as compared to the Altima - dont even get me started comparing them to the CLS".

Playing with the seat controls, first thing I always do is try to bring the seat ALL THE WAY down. To see how low it can go. One of my complaints about our CLS is its SUV-like seating when it comes to height. I feel that any car emphasizing any measure of sports atitude, has got to be equipped with seats that can go low. On the ground low (even the seats in the Taurus go lower than in our CLS').

The Maxima's went down pretty low. But the seats felt like they had NO padding. Very uncomfortable. But later I find out why they help in other ways.

Adjust mirrors, after seats and set the HVAC which here is also found in manual mode, I start the car. Start steering my way out of the Hertz parking lot and the first thought now is "this steering is SO MUCH heavier than the ALtima's it's almost TOO heavy". Two days were enough to get used to a totally different type of steering wheel, I later realized, because when I got back into my CLS from the Maxima, I realized that the steering effort required was about the same (though CLS is clearly more acurate with the Maxima's a lot more artificial). Which means that the Altima has very light steering.

In the picture below I see that well optioned Maximas get a totally different center dash configuration and an automatic/digital HVAC system. Mine did not have any of that.



Though it did have the below instrument cluster which I liked.



The interior dimensions of the Maxima were so close to that of the Altima to the point where the spouse went "are you sure this is a different Nissan?"

Riding now and I can start being able to tell a lot about the ride characteristics of this Maxima car. Before I explain, let me say that this car is equipped with the 17 inch alloy wheels and 225/50 Bridgeston Potenza RE092s. Which is a much more aggressive setup than our CLS gets of course.

The ride in this Maxima is totally different than in the Altima and even our CLS. It IS way more acurate but the quality is moderate to...bad, to sometimes, pretty bad. On smooth asphault, it's fine, but when the road starts breaking, you can feel a lot more than you want to. Also, combine that with the fact that this Maxima is actually less well sound-proofed than the new ALtima and you get a pretty dissapointing feeling whenever you want to cruise for long periods of time. Like when we visited the Wine Country in Napa or when we visited Monterey.

ABout the noise. There was a nasty aerodynamic buffeting noise coming from the moonroof which was so annoying, I many times found myslef closing the inside roof-slider which actually improved the situation. The disadvantage of course was the fact that I could not let the sun enter the cabin....this is California right? We want to experience the sun amongst other things...

When the road had bumps and the quality was very poor, the ride quality of this Maxima car, was getting worse almost in an incremental fashion.

Another proof of all of the above combined was the fact that, when I was doing 80 mph in the Maxima, it felt a lot faster than doing the same speed in the ALtima. Which is sad since the Altima is supposedly the little cousin and a downgrade, but then again it's not a fair comparison because the new gen. Altima is really now moved in the league of the old gen. Maxima which is what I was driving. Plus the platform is newer and a lot more refined.

In the end, I do prefer the above ride characteristics to that of a base Taurus for example. Especially when driving on 101. And that's when I realized why the seats were so...hard. Nissan used hard seats to add to the "sporty" feeling they wanted to achieve with this Maxima. It's a sports sedan after all. For the category at least. See, many of us underestimate the role of the seats when engineers try to give you that sporty feeling. They play as much of a role as the suspension and tires do. Believe me.

But for every bummer the ride and noise invited, the engine made up for. Guys, this engine is...trully a V8 dressed up as a V6. Well, you know what I mean. The pull at low and mid rpm is SIGNIFICANTLY more intense than in our car. I understand that the Maxima is about 250 pounds lighter than our car but still. This engine's mid rpm punch is just addicting. The beauty is that its strong point, is the usable part of the rev band, which means that you ALWAYS get the best of this engine.

I mean it was totally evident when I got back into the CLS. I thought our CLS makes good power at low rpm. I was totally negatively surprised because in the first 2-3 launches after I got off the plane, it felt sluggish. The mid-rpm situation was worse. That was the feeling I got when I got off the Z350 and in my car about 6 months ago. But I thought this iteration of this engine in the Maxima would be different. Not really. This is one sweet engine. Pulled strong from 1.5K rpm and never ever let go. It felt as a flat curve all the way to redline, which is not the case and rarely possible anyway.

Which reiterates the fact that our engine's strong point is really starting at 5K because the Maxima, although lighter, I believe, is slower in the end. With the automatic which I drove, it's got to be. I dont remember any performance rating off hand currently. If I am right, my point is, that it's interesting how strong our engine is at the high end of its rev band to compensate for the mid and low range.

The tranny was not bad either. Not sure if it's the same one in the Altima, but it felt faster through the gears in the Maxima. All I needed to do is slide it from D4 to D3 on the highway and there was ample power everywhere. 2nd was good for about 70 mph, just like in our CLS. 3rd was shorter and 4th felt like our 4th.

Brakes in the Maxima felt better than those in the Altima, but never had I used their full potential, in either car. The feeling is more important to me. Compared to the CLS, our car wins hands down, mainly due to the initial numbness of the Maxima.

Only one time I lose the front end of the Maxima and that was coming into the highway aggresively, but it was raining cats and dogs. It lost the front eng pretty badly acutally, but came back in when I let go of the gas pedal. Going through twisty exits, the RE092s held well and never felt I was not in control.

Talking about twisties. Coming back from Monterey, I took the Route 1 route. Oh man! Did I realize I have totally forgotten how to drive in the twisties. I lived many years of my life in a European country where roads are NEVER straight so I know I have been there, but the flatness of the midwest have totally spoiled me. I mean pick up trucks were FLYING off me. Way slower cars were blinking their brights for me to get out of the way. And all that when I thought I was at the limit. Well...I was at the limit of MY abilities. Mainly fear basically because I could feel getting better and better as every mile went by. It was during the night though, which I hate doing such a thing during the night time. Plus in a road which is totally unknown to me. I bet most of these guys were local and knew exactly at which mph point their tires will start complaining and where they would start letting go. IN any case, that 12 mile "stretch" was a real rush.

Finally, the quality of the Maxima was about the same as in the Altima. Slamming the trunk would produce this noise that felt like broken pieces of metal falling on a metal floor or something. Everything you touched felt way cheaper than in our CLS. It was evident that engineers made an effort to make the interior of the Maxima be at least slightly of higher quality than that in the Altima (althoug we're comparing the wrong generations) but still, the difference was not large.

The ex-Maxima though does look good. I think it looks better than our CLS from the side. Front and rear are not bad looking either and those sporty wheels enhanced the package.

Overall, it was a great experience driving these 2 cars, especially the latter.

gavriil

I forgot to mention about the sound of the V6 engine in the Maxima. Nothing to write mom about. Almost artificial and as the revs rise, it just get louder and never changes its pitch and nuance. Unlike our CLS. Again, I have said this many times before, but I think that our CLS' engine is the best sounding 6 in the market today. Even some V8s sound worse to me. And I love the fact that it has 2 personalities. One before and one after 4800 rpm. That's part of the beauty.

cusdaddy

Wow.... Very thorough and informative review.

I definitely agree about the VQ. I remember driving in my Z and Lou's 6-speed CL back to back at full throttle. The Z's VQ had a huge punch off the line and the midrange. Driving the CL right after, it had a noticebly weaker low-end, but a much more thrilling top-end.

Both are great engines though

cusdaddy

I have to agree. I love the exhaust note of my Z, but the engine note is nothing exciting and a little harsh right near redline.

I really miss the howl of my old CL in VTEC. I had a short ram intake, and the car would just scream. I'd take the exhaust note of the Z with the induction note of the CL to make the perfect sounding V6

gavriil

In my review of the Z, I made reference to the fact that at low rpm this is one sweet sounding engine. But later, it somehow loses its unique nuance. So if you take the sound of the Z's engine at low rpm and add the sound from our engine at high rpm, you get the best sounding 6 and one of the best sounding engines period.

gavriil

So. Jumping in my CLS after arriving back in Chicago. How did it feel? I explained about the engine. Sluggish at low rpm and almost dead at mid but totally interesting at high. Talked about the engine sound, etc.

But believe it or not, if I had to chose, THE MOST important characteristic of my car which can be used against the other 2 cars I was driving for a week, that would be the ride. Ride quality in our car I believe is totally underrated. Compared to both the Altima and the Maxima, I believe our CLS rides A TON better. It's in a different league. The way it absorbes bumps, yet the control it gives, even combining the steering feel and acuracy....the whole experience. Way ahead than all these rental cars I drive (and I have driven a lot of them).

The second characteristic would have been, the quality of the interior and overall build. You easily feel you are in a car that's in a different category than those other cars. Call it luxury, call it entry luxury.

Every time I drive other cars, either rentals or visit a dealer to test drive the new hot ride that just arrived from Japan or Germany, or Canada, or Mexico....I get the feeling that there is a lot of reason to wait till I make the decision to replace my CLS. There is nothing out there that BEATS the heck out of the OVERALL value that a CLS gives, even 3.5 years later. Seriously.

1SICKLEX

Altima= okay rental car (it's an Altima no expectations, reminds me of a nice toaster oven). 6th gen Maxima=shitty rental car (considering it is a 30k+ car)

Nissans=good rental cars! (J/K)

03TL_PlaTinUM

gavril, if you thought the torque on the 255hp maxima is good, you should try out a stick shift G35C. I met a dude with a 6mt G35C at great lakes dragway once, and he agreed to let me sit in the passanger seat for one of his runs down the track. Lets just say my neck has never been the same! NECK SNAPPING TORQUE. Pulls just as hard as a 99-03 stick mustang!! except your shifting a lot more. Totally unforgiving. After that experience I got back in my accord, for a run down the track, and my p.enis felt so much smaller!

mattg

how quick did he run?



gav, you really thought the max was going to have 4 cyl? :o

gavriil

Hehehe...

gavriil

Any rental I ever got was always the base car, so the thought of a V6 Maxima was out of the question. The best rental I ever got was a Volvo S60. ANd I got it a couple of times. But even that, had the base 5 cylinder engine in it. I also have gotten a number of Buicks but those dont have I4 options.

gavriil

I have test-driven an auto G35C but not a stick.

bkknight369

gav why arent you working for a car mag???


ne ways great review of the cars...I really like maxima from the pre-99 era...very refined, though the engine wasn't spectacular.

How do you feel about the longlevity of the cars? My mom's altima is in the shop getting its tranny replaced...she is SUPER conservative (never even gotten pulled over in 10 years of driving...knock on wood ), and it only has 87k miles...wondering if this is normal for a nissan...

genix

the max is a great carrrr..

SpeedyV6

That 255 hp rating may be an underestimate. The same engine indifferent platforms is rated as low as 245 hp in the Altima to as high as 280 hp in the G35C. Sure the intake and exhaust are different in each model but the engine is the same. I doubt that hp varies by that much. Having test driven an '04 Maxima I can say that it pulls a lot harder than the one in the Cl-S. As you said it does feel like a v8. Still I agree that the overall quality of the CL-S is better than what Nissan offers.

Time for 3.5 l upgrade?

Chaptorial

Awesome post. My aunt has a current generation Altima and its a great car.

Scrib

What did the guy run???

03TL_PlaTinUM

the car was band new, bearly 1000miles, and he didn't quite know how to shift fast, so he had a delay going from 1-2-3-4. he ran high 14's. Even though he had a delay finding the gears, once we got in gear, the thing yanked!

NSXNEXT

iTrader: (2)

My wife loves her 03 Altima.

1killercls

nice job Gav. It's always interesting to read what you have to say.

and the Presentation is Excellent!!!

riceburner503

That MAXIMA looks like the same rental I drove in San Francisco when my CL was at the dealer for a new tranny.

Notorious23CL

wow!!! great info...thanx

F23A4

Gavrill, that was one of the best reviews I've ever seen. Though I didnt totally agree with it (i.e.: the Maxima having the same cheap interior as the Altima), it was EXTREMELY thorough. However, just keep in mind that the 2003 Maxima is basically the 2000 Maxima, exc. for the HIDs, gated shifter and VQ35DE powertrain. In other words, it's four year old model versus the 1 y/o Altima.

Also, the Maxima NEVER had a 4 cylinder model; even the Maxima's predecessor (the Datsun 810) didnt have a 4 cylinder; that was/is the Stanza/Altima's place.

I've driven my Max on moderate trips (300 miles) and found that it wasnt nearly as comfortable as my 99 Accord, so I'll agree with your assessment of the seating comfort.

As for comparing it's creature comforts with the CLS, the I35 is probably better suited for that as the Maxima SE is a $24G car ($27.5 MSRP).

Ironically, I reserved a Hertz midsize (via Hertz.com) in Miami last Spring (and hoped for an Altima/Camry/Accord/Maxima) and was VERY depressed when I saw a 155hp Taurus sitting in my Club Gold slot; that thing made no pretense of performance. The thing took about a DAY to go from 0-60mph. I would have been MUCH happier with a Focus.

Peace

gavriil

Never pursued it. Plus my background is not engineering. It's marketing, sales. I dont know. Never thought of it. And when I have, I always thought of it as a step back, or a step towards the wrong direction. Maybe I am wrong.

gavriil

I always felt that Nissan cars were about average when it comes to longevity, reliability for the long term. I would not be surprised if the new offerings will improve on that. Especially when thinking that Infiniti has manged to excell in that respect.

gavriil

I thought of that many times and would not be surprised if true.


As high as 287 in the Z.


Agreed.

Acura really needs to think about raising displacement on their cars. Whenever I say that though, my next thought is, so if that's the case, what can be said about BMW insisting on 3.0 liters for the 330 and the Z4? Even 2.5 liters all the way to the 5 series. And still, they are selling well. It's a complicated matter though after driving this engine, I can tell you that the benefit is significant. It's addictive to have good torque at mid rpm. It aint easy to go back after that.

gavriil

Hehehe... Thanks.

gavriil

Really? Why? I thougth it was not that thorough as if I were really doing this professionaly I would be taking notes because I know there were a lot of details that I thought about writing here when I was driving the cars, but I am sure escaped my review.

But thanks.

gavriil

I referred to that at least once. Maybe twice. Agreed.

gavriil

I compared the cars to our CLS because everyone here has a CLS. I used it as reference so that everyone understands the feeling I got from the experience better. Also, I many times mentioned that the Max and all Nissan cars do not pretend to be lux cars.

Totally agree. I have driven that car at least 40 times at separate occasions. I know the base Taurus the best out of all vehicles I never owned. Actually I drove it for 6 months a couple of years back as a company car.

I am convinced that either the engine is overrated or that tranny sucks the heck out of that engine's torque. I am leaning towards the latter.

But what's most annoying to me about the Taurus is the handling characteristics. Totally floaty. How do these people drive these cars every day out there? It's floaty to the point where you always have to be alert and keep correcting. Rediculous.

Though the interior from a quality perspective is superior to the Max and the Alt. I also like the design of the Taurus's interior.

Good thing that we will soon see the Taurus be discontinued. About time for something new.

Joe5.0

Gavril try to get a Duratec Taurs next time you rent one. The extra 45hp is all top end, and it pulls all the way to 6k. It runs ALOT smoother too, and doesnt sound like you're trying to kill it when you floor it.

The base suspension is kinda floaty, but it rides excellent. So I guess you cnat always get everything. The interior on the Taurus is really underrated I think. Nothing extremely fancy, but very easy to operate and no quality problems.

Anyways, back to the Altima vs. Maxima discussion.

I don't know why you didnt like the seats in the Maxima, but I disagree. In my short time in the Altima with cloth the seat material was as bad as my 94 Mustang. Very coarse material.

My gf's 03 Max has cloth seats, and they seem very comfortable to me. The seat material is nice & soft, and on long drives my back has never complained.

I feel the EXACT same way about seat height. My Taurus has just about the best seating position of any car I've driven. he sea goes very low to the floor and the steering wheel also goes very low. In contrast the CL-S feels like I'm sitting on top of the roof and he steering wheel doesnt tilt down far enough. People love to rip on the seats in the mustang, but imo the seating position is better.

Nice review.

F23A4

Though I dont agree with the assessment that the Taurus' interior has better quality than the Max (though subjective), I will say that the suspension (much as we hate it) does fit the desires of the probable demographic for a Taurus.

chungkopi

good review! wow!

i almost bought a maxima, but i just couldn't handle it's boring looks. very good car though..

Joe5.0

I wouldnt say the Taurus has a better interior than he Maxima either. The maxima def has a sportier layout, but the Taurus I would say has slightly higher plastic pieces and no real "cheap" feeling items. Like the door handles, the taurus has a chrome finish like the CL-S, and the Maxima has the same cheap ass flat grey plastic handle that the Altima has.

ga2000

04 max is alot better than the previous years. my father has an 04 max and i have an 03 cls . build quality around the same and as for power the max takes the cake i ran a 14.699 w/ intake in 48dgree weather low hum. and the max ran 14.66 in 76 degree weather and humidity was alot higher and the car is bone stock that car is good for a 14.5 or on a good run 14.4

cusdaddy

These are only a few experiences but my parents have a 1999 Maxima SE and the thing is a rock. Hasn't had to go to service once yet and it's still as solid as the day we bought it.

My Z is less solid, but still very reliable so far. I've had a better experience with Nissan than Honda so far, but again, I think they both are very good in terms of reliability

cusdaddy

In regards to the handling of a Taurus, I was in Chicago about a month ago for business and I had a new Sable for a week. I had to say I sort of liked the suspension. I know it didn't handle well, but it was very comfortable over bumps. I felt it fit the nature of the car very well.

I guess it was a welcome relief from the occasionally jarring ride of my Z.

F23A4

Ironically, the 1G and 2G Altimas had the chrome finish door handles. But I guess Nissan was going for that sporty, monochrome look with the 3G Altima.

gavriil

I have had experience of this engine in Taurus's cousin. The Mercury...whatever it's called. Huge difference. And the steering in that car was lightyears more acurate that that in the Taurus. Liked it a lot. That's about 3.5 years ago though.

gavriil

Maybe they use several different types of cloth seats. These seats were really bad. I am sure you would all agree. It felt almost zero padding. My butt started to go to sleep after 1.5 hours of driving.

By the way, both in the Alt and the Max the lumbar support is identically placed and it's exactly where ours in the CLS is. In the Maxima though, because the seat so badly designed, I used zero lumbar support when I did use about 40% of it in the Altima. Maybe it was my car....I dont know.