stay on topic man. we were not discussing price.

And if you compare BMW's HP/torque/liter vs. Chevys base model engines HP/torque/liter . BMW still wins.

I'm speaking naturally aspirated of course.

So NO grand national. NO supercharged pontiacs...

Of course you are comparing the whole fleet of GM to a handful of cars BMW makes

so, mabye I'm misunderstanding what you mean by your statement.

 

You are.

What I am talking about is company resources. That is where cheap HP comes from. Who can mafunacture the best performance, the cheapest, the quickest. And the answer is flat out GM, no question about it.

A good example of all this is the latest rumors about the Monaro becoming the new GTO.

I mean look at that. GM is looking to re-introduce a legend, the GTO and 90% of the car is already ready and found....of all places...in Australia. As Monaro. Can BMW do that?

BMW would have to go to the drawing board and start the car from scratch. And that costs $$$ which shows in the final price and it takes time. People here waited for ever for the Euro-spec engine of the M3 for example. Why? Cos BMW did not have the resources to bring the engine here, or it would have been too expensive.

 

$$$ matters too man.

Dude I agree the CL and TL arent the best looking cars.

BUT THEY ARE NOT IN THE SAME CLASS AS A BMW OR MERCEDES!!!!

People don't think, hmm should I buy a $78k Mercedes, or a BMW?
and then purchase a $40k Cadillac. GM has a way to go to prove themselfs in this area. It just doens't happen like that.



this is just someones opinion of the MB over a M5. Which I can understand.

The M5 is a performace car! Not a luxery cruiser.

WHAT AM I SUPPOSE TO SEE?

that people 1st look at buying things that think are pleasing to look at, and they think are stylish???

geee, thanks for the insight! LOL
--------
So did you purchase your CLS beacause it looks as sexy as a ferrari?

or because it offered the best power/options/value for the $?

 

ya, I did...


I have to agree.

But you get what you pay for in the GM. As such with the BMW.

 

If the CL looked 100% better, it would have stolen a TON of 3 series potential buyers (who are buyers now). And it does not matter that it is FWD and it does not matter that it is not 50%-50% balanced. People buy style and they will buy more of it if you give it to them for cheap.

Acura has nothing to be jealous about of MB and BMW when it comes to quality and reliability. And that is the only other thing that people look at before they buy. Style, then durability. That creates image. And image creates the "name".

So you got name, you got reliability and you look great. Then you sell cars.

 

Keep in mind that I am talking about the GM..."TO COME". Not the GM of 2002. Look out. The next 3 years will be very, very exciting.

 

Got to go to bed. Tomorrow we'll talk.

 

Some of you guys must be stoned. Get serious, these guys take their latest Catera (ok, it was driven in Germany--so what) and are going to plop a big piece of iron in it. You'll get '59 Vette is what you'll get. Can't handle for sh*t but has good quarter mile times. It has taken years for BMW to fine tune the M--GM doesn't have the corporate patience to tweak it along. They'll no more be able to beat BMW at every turn than they'll be able to simple declare that they're going to make a more reliable car than Acura next year. Won't happen--take it to the bank.

 

I really do hope your right. It will drive down the cost of the BMW, and MB. Which will help some of us that want some of the models that are just out of reach.

 

I think just one of us is smoking the super dank weed this evening

He really thinks GM can turn around in 1yr or so! And compete with BMWs past.

 

it would be funny to see a caddy haul @$$ !!!!

 

LOL!!!! you can't be serious. All the car mags apparently have a different opinion, and so do I having driven both. There is no comparison. They couldn't sell the CTS in Germany because the interior was too cheap looking for the german market...

GM....

 

Ok, now that in no way describes GM, or any American auto maker for the most point. In my experiences, there is such a huge lack of refinement, reliability, built quality, style, charm... in American cars. There are only a few American cars that most car enthusiasts will say to themselves, "I would love to drive that". The only two I can really think of are the Z06 and the Viper. And while both complete their intended jobs superbly, neither meets all those criteria I mentioned above. Now when you look at Automakers oversees, whether it be German, Japanese, even British, there are literally dozens of cars I would LOVE to get a chance to drive. And there are dozens of cars that meet those same criteria. And as far as a company having a name, there may be no other company that has sold as many cars simply on their name as BMW has. I can think of a few people who either have bought BMW's or want to simply cause it is a Bimmer. My uncle has a 330xi (All wheel drive). He loves his car and talks about how great it is all the time. It is very nice, but he never even heard of an S4, which is in the same class really. I let him drive my car and he wore a smile on his face for the next hour. He simply thought his car was the best performing car simply because it is a BMW. Basically, my point here is that BMW sells probably more cars than any car company in the world, simply because of its name. GM, well, they have a LONG way to go.

 

Forgot to add, I do hope GM gets it sh1t together. The more competition you see, the better choices you have. Don't feel to bad though, I hate Ford even more

 

I think what comes down to it as that GM is gonna jump into a ring in which they are not familiar with. True, I agree with everyone on here that you simply do not go into a fight without previous experience. Could GM pull it off, absolutely. Look at the new Caddy convert, that is one sweet looking ride. So obviously they have the potential to make it happen. But it will take 3 or 4 years of researching and fine tuning in order to get a car to take on the likes of BMW and MB. I do love GM though. I think they build the finest trucks and SUVS in the world. But only one car of theirs now stands for performance, Corvette. I think after the introduction of the new GTO, Camaro replacement, and the new Vette, they can look back and see what they did right and what theyre doing wrong. But obviously every automotive reporter thought that the new Caddy convert was unbelievable. For 60g, that will be a damn nice car to beat.
BTW, the new Vette is supposed to have 3 different levels of quality and performance.

 

fat chance at beating BMW, it's GM we're talking about.

 

The M5 may be the best car in the entire world as far as a daily driver. There is no way it could be better on the inside, and outside it is beautiful. The current performance is unmatched by anyone as of now, and by the time GM gets their car out BMW will have only a small layover until the V10 M3 is released. They are also possibly releasing a twin turbo six that will cost less and that will likely take away any prie advantage that GM had.

The LAST thing I would EVER do is buy an American car in its 1st year of production over a BMW. Especially a performance car. How long do you think a GM engine like that will last?

Cheap HP is just that. The BMW M engines are the best engines in the world. I could buy a WRX and slap after market mods on it and for under $30 total I could have a car that would run with an M3, but would anyone really want that OVER an M3? And the WRX is a great engine, better than anything that GM could ever come up with.

HP/L shows something, it shows that they are using better technology and getting the most performance possible from their engine. The M3 engine produces over 330 HP from 6 Cyl. That my friend is what we call fucking rediculous.

No GM engine will do that in the near future.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the 0-60s for M5 just a little quicker than the M3 ? I know the M3 is a lot lighter so probably a little better "performer" Right ?

2 Different Cars True, but WHO WOULN"T ... given the Choice--choose the M5 ! !!!!!!!!!!!

 

the M5 is quicker than you think, stock 4.4 0-60 and i've seen timeslips of 12.7-13.4. dinan intake, kellners exhaust, x pipe and your flying check out the videos on the home page there is a modded 96 m3 has it pinned at 140 and the m5 goes flying by its crazy. www.bmwm5.com

 

I agree with yall saying it will take awhile for GM to even come close to accomplishing this. The one thing they do have in their favor though is that they have been making one of the worlds greatest sports cars for 50 years now. So maybe you should give them a little more credit than "no way." But, I do agree that it will take some time. The best thing for GM to do is to just watch BMW for awhile if their that serious about beating them, and see what they do over the next 3 years.

 

I don't care how fast any GM crap is gonna be. It's still gonna have plastic interior!

 

ya! a couple (2) 1/10's of a second in the 1/4 mile. I don't remember any of the 0-60 specifics. Depends on driver/temperature/altitude/solar flares/moon spots

He, didn't want to admit BMW puts out understated #'s usually. Ohh well. It's not like the 1/4 mile time is even relevant in this conversation anyway. The M5 hauls ass. No need to argue that.

hehe

 

The thing with GM is...they think if you slap a 5.7 liter engine in car and it runs 12's in the 1/4 it's a M5 killer. They couldn't be more wrong. The M5 is about speed but it is also about refined speed. The CTS won't be able to touch a M5 on a road course. Despite being able to turn 12's in the 1/4 it won't handle worth shit.

 

The CTS is basicly the same size as a current 5 series or E class.

All three are RWD sedans that are usually sold with 6cylinder
engines and slush-boxes.

BMW & Mercedes both make V-8 powered hot rod versions of their cars and now Cadillac is going to join the fray.

GM has a great new RWD chassis (which the new Seville/STS will also use) and a great V-8 motor to use in this venture.

BUT as we all know the devil is in the details.
Can GM nail down a Lexus/Mercedes/BMW like interior and the same overall level of fit/finish/refinement ??

That is the key!

 

When's the General gonna realize pushrod technology is outdated, circa 1980's? And when are they going to realize that no matter what they do to any of their cars, save the Vette, it will still be FUGLY!!! Christ, GM has engineers that used to work for AMC in the 70's it seems.

 

ill take a loaded CTS anyday. providing the right color. i've been on this board for a fe w months and one thing i have learned is that how much someone likes the looks of a car is totally based on opinion. IMO the new 7 3 5 series are hott but alot of people loathe their looks. and the same goes for the CTS. in black or silver, with the right engine and the right price it is definitley a 5 series competitor atleast. M5 with a V10 would be amazing.

GUYS WELCOME TO THE NEW ERA OF HORSEPOWER!
Its exciting that everyone wants to make a bad ass hot rod or atleast a "even MORE bang for your buck" type car. this is great. what next? 300 hp miatas? (kidding)

 

If you think that the CTS is a Catera, you are 100% mistaken.

If you think that the CTS cant handle, you are 110% mistaken.

 

Exactly my feeling.

 

I dont think you guys understand how far ahead has Cadillac/GM come with this new CTS car. As far as handling it is very close to the BMW cars. Read the mags and go drive one. Yes the 220HP 3.2 liter V6 is a little weak for the 3500 pounds this thing weighs but so is the 325i and the 525i.

 

gavriil,

I wasn't going to get involved with this ridiculous thread, but I see that you're up to making stupid comparisions again.

1st of all, if you want to compare HP with value, then let's not compare BMW with GM. It's pretty much well known that BMW is a higher cost luxury nameplate than GM.

That being said, if you take the $$$ factor out of the argument, then BMW wins hands down on the HP issue. Even you can't argue that point.

Secondly, you state there are tuners for GM vehicles. Fine. Have you ever heard of Dinan? If not, do some research.

And finally, if you think that a 400+ HP Caddy will be a better car than an M5, well, I can only chuckle at that thought. Here's the problem with that theory-- BMW has had such a long history of building that type of car and they're renowned world-wide for cars like their M5. GM, on the other hand, would be making a "first attempt" at sports sedan to compete with the M5. Throwing a 400 HP engine into a Caddy may make for a car that can compete with an M5 in acceleration (if the GM car's gearing were correct), but the comparison ends there. There's so much more to a street car than it's acceleration.

 

The interior story is true. ANd Lutz was the one who ordered the redo of the interior immediately. And this new 400HP car will have the new interior which will pass on to the rest of the CTS cars after that. So in the beggining of 2003, the interior will not be an issue any more.

But. About the handling, I really dont think you are right.

 

Agreed. But what I am talking about is the GM "TO COME". Right now American cars have no excitment built in. True. But Lutz is trying to change that with GM cars. And! Ford now is trying to do the same. Look at them deciding to build the G40. Do they have to? No. But that is where you start. At the top and then you come down to the $35K cars. I dont think Ford will do as good of a job as GM will simply because they are in deep financial trouble now and they dont have the management team capability that GM does. But they are also going towards that direction.

 

They are and they will. Watch out for Pontiac. Some really interesting things are coming from Pontiac as well. I am no saying they will be par with BMW but there will be huge impovement there. You will see an "S2000-like" Pontiac do 0-60mph in 5 seconds for $35K in a couple of years.

 

Exactly my point. I am not doubting the time it will take. But taking 3-4 years on BMW's ass on the excitment department, is not really that much time. GM has the resources to pull this off easy. What they were missing was someone like Lutz.

 

Did you read the article? GM says the 400HP CTSi will be out 9-12 months from now. By that time only the new gen. 5 series car will be out.

 

Not Cadillacs.

 

We'll see about that.

I am not saying they will succeed. I am saying they will be very close in this first new try. Then it will only be up from there. And in the end, if they keep it up, they will win and beat BMW because simply, they have more resources,etc.

Why didnt they do it before? Because their priorities were different. Lutz has different priorities now and the strategy of the company has changed.

 

Very well put.

And I am betting they will cos now they are more focused than ever and they have the money to do it. Money buys the right people and it's up from there.

You guys have no idea how much larger and financially stronger GM is over BMW.

 

I wasn't going to get involved with this ridiculous thread, but I see that you're up to making stupid comparisions again.

----------------------

Why is this rediculous?

--------------------


1st of all, if you want to compare HP with value, then let's not compare BMW with GM. It's pretty much well known that BMW is a higher cost luxury nameplate than GM.

--------------------

I am talking about GM's division which is going against BMW, which is Cadillac in this case.

--------------------

That being said, if you take the $$$ factor out of the argument, then BMW wins hands down on the HP issue. Even you can't argue that point.

-----------------

But $$ matters.

--------------------------

Secondly, you state there are tuners for GM vehicles. Fine. Have you ever heard of Dinan? If not, do some research.

--------------

You read that wrong. Someone else said there are BMW tuners and I said, there are GM tuners as well. We both know there are tuners for both. SO?

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And finally, if you think that a 400+ HP Caddy will be a better car than an M5, well, I can only chuckle at that thought.

---------------------

First, I did not say that. GM is saying that.

What I said is that they for sure are coming closer and closer. And in time they could be par and maybe beat them eventually. Simply because they are now focused and have that as a priority.

--------------------

Here's the problem with that theory-- BMW has had such a long history of building that type of car and they're renowned world-wide for cars like their M5.

------------------------

True but GM has heritage too with the COrvette nameplate, etc. Plus the reason they are in the American LeMans is that same reason. They are trying to add excitment into the Cadillac name. It takes time but if they keep it up, they will succeed.

------------------------

GM, on the other hand, would be making a "first attempt" at sports sedan to compete with the M5. Throwing a 400 HP engine into a Caddy may make for a car that can compete with an M5 in acceleration (if the GM car's gearing were correct), but the comparison ends there. There's so much more to a street car than it's acceleration.

-------------------

Agreed but if they keep up the pressure and stay focused, they have a good chance in succeeding due to the fact that they have the resources and it seems they have the right people now.

 

No offense to those who own american cars, but we all know they suck. They have recalls galore and they have the lowest reliability, especially GM. For GM to pull the kind of HP and torque that the BMW pulls out of the smae size engine is unfeasible. EX: the M5 4.9 394hp vs. the ZO6 5.7 345hp. The M5 Pulls 20 more hp per liter. If the M5 had the same size engine as the vette it would be pulling 450+ hp. The reason domestics are cheaper is because they use crap materials and breakdown all the time. Plus, why would anyone get a Caddy over a BMW?