MattPegan

For everyone out there spending extra dough on synthetic oil, I believe you are wasting your money. Synthetic oil is engineered to last longer before it begins to break down, so the oil companies tell you its better. But the reason you change your oil is not because it breaks down, it is because you get tiny metal filings in your oil and that is bad for the engine. If you wanted to you could take out your oil, strain it, and put it back in. The actual oil is fine. So there is no real way synthetic can be better, since it will still get the same metal contaminants in it right?

I used to buy synthetic until I told my stepfather about it. He has worked as a scientist for Schlumberger (an oil company) for about 30 years doing nothing but research on oil. I think he knows everything anyone could possibly know about oil, but I can't be sure of his knowledge of cars. Is he right? Is synthetic a waste of money?

Juker008

Ur right u could strain the oil by using the magnetic pan method. By placing a magnetic at the bottom of an oil pan and letting the oil sit overnight it should take out the metal contaminates in the oil.

About ur dad, ok ask him this, how do u take the carbon out of the oil? Oil filters sure as hell don't take out carbon from the oil, if they did oil wouldn't turn black. People call me crazy for changing my fully-syn every 3, **COUGH** **COUGH** russiandue **COUGH**. It is only logical, that the only way to remove the carbon from the oil is to change the oil. Sure lubrication properties don't break down before 3K, but if carbon is floating around with the oil then u have oil and carbon lubrication metal parts.









Juker008

123

Only use synthetic if you have a turbo engine or a jetliner turbofan. Otherwise, dino oil will do just fine.

fender4

[

...., **COUGH** **COUGH** russiandue **COUGH**. It is only logical, that the only way to remove the carbon from the oil is to change the oil. Sure lubrication properties don't break down before 3K, but if carbon is floating around with the oil then u have oil and carbon lubrication metal parts.

juker008 [/B][/QUOTE]

read these lab results and draw your own conclusions **COUGH** **COUGH**

**COUGH** **COUGH**

http://www.mindspring.com/~bill99gxe...%20Results.zip

Juker008

That didn't turn out too well I tried to DL it and when I opened it it was all incoded.








Juker008

Bulldog01

My buddy changes his Mobil 1 every month in his Supra TT. I just started using Mobil 1, but I don't plan on changing it as often as he does. I haven't done my first change yet, so I don't have an answer for you, really. Sorry.

dbox

im staying with synthetic

fender4

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Juker008
[B]That didn't turn out too well I tried to DL it and when I opened it it was all incoded.


try here,,, never mind,, don't know what is wrong

http://www.mindspring.com/~bill99gxe...%20Results.zip

heyitsme

thats why its important to use the highest quality filters you can-air and oil. its impossible to keep any oil perfectly clean but these can reduce the size of the particles in the oil. even when you change your oil, there are still residue particles left in the engine, with that logic you'll be changing the oil every month like the supra guy which is rediculous and overkill/bad for the environment considering engines last 200k miles + just by doing proper maintenance.

if you live in colder temps, synthetics have lower pour temps so you're not getting that metal on metal contact-unless you have an engine block heater.

syntehtics have higher film strength than regular oil, sticks to metal parts better as pressure increases.

combustion by-products, the higher the tbn number the better the oil can neutralize these.

so no synthetics aren't a waste of money as long as people take the time to change the oil and air filters as they are suggested.

Juker008

[QUOTE]Originally posted by fender4
[B]
$hit same results. U think u could either post the link to where u got it from or possibly post a link that is not a .zip?









Juker008

fender4

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Juker008
[B]$hit same results. U think u could either post the link to where u got it from or possibly post a link that is not a .zip?

it came from here,, try going to this max. page then to the tread

http://forums.maxima.org/showthread....hreadid=100060

Wires

You've got it wrong. It's not engineered to last longer, it's engineered to be stable over the entire temperature range. If you take conventional oil, they add modifiers to allow it to try to become stable over the entire temperature range. When the engine is cold, the oil is fairly thick. When the engine is hot, the oil is runny.

With synthetic, the viscosity remains virtually constant over the entire temperature range. When it's hot, it gives you the same level of protection as when it's cold.

So what's that mean to your engine? Basically, when you do a cold start, you get lubrication. Dino oil in really cold climates is really thick, and for the first little bit, there is little to no lubrication = wear. When dino oil get's really hot, it thins out, and you can get metal to metal contact again = wear. Synthetic prevents this.

As for your straining idea, I wouldn't recommend it. Oil comes with detergents and other modifiers that clean the carbon out of the oil passages. That only lasts so long before it wears out. The physical oil is fine, but the other shit that keeps the oil stable and alive isn't.

Since synthetic is more stable, and doesn't thin out like dino, it runs cooler in the engine, and doesn't wear out as fast (and reduces the amount of carbon the detergents have to clean out).

MattPegan

hey thanks for the info...I am going to forward that over to my stepfather and see what he has to say. I have a feeling he just doesn't want people to switch from regular oil to sythetic...as that would be bad for his business....

so since I am in Phoenix and its over 110 degrees every day, should I switch to synthetic so the oil doesn't thin out?

MattPegan

I would never actually strain my oil...seems like a huge pain in the ass, plus it would not be effective (may get filings and metal, does't change carbon content, detergents etc). Much easier to just get a full oil change. Oil's not so expensive that I would really want to re-use it... So if I have got it right now, synthetic oils are better if you drive at extreme temperatures, but thats probably it. If the temp. where you live stays between 30-90 most of the time, you will probably be fine with regular oil. If its dropping down to sub 0 degrees at night, or you live in the desert, synthetic may provide better protection since it will not thicken or thin to the same degree. The pitch that it lasts longer is true, but you still need to change the oil with the same frequency since its not really the composition of the oil that is the reason for an oil change. quote from an expert:

"synthetic oils are made to last longer by eliminating the oil
components that break down under high temperature operation. Removing metal filings with magnets also helps. However, nothing is perfect. Even in synthetic oils, there are components that break down, it just takes longer than in conventional oils. And in many engines there may be non-magnetic components -e.g. aluminum block engines, although most of the metal in the
oil come from the bearings which are steel. Note that there are steels that are non-magnetic. And I suspect small amounts of water may be trapped in the oil, degrading its performance.

The added cost of synthetic oil (3-4 times more expensive than
conventional), and cost of adding a magnetic trap, including a means to clean it out on a regular basis, just like an oil filter change, does not seem to justify the whole thing. This is why synthetic oil, which has been available for maybe 15 or more years (Mobil 1 was the first), has only a small part of the market."

rchavis

Umh. Moble 1 was the first to market in stores which made it easy for consumers to purchase, The fact is, Amsoil was the first to produce an API rated synthetic oil for passenger cars. That why they can legally have the slogan. "The First in Synthetics".
As you research this, over time it will become clear that other companies follow their lead, so that they can have a market share to the few, but growing amount of consumers who know the benefits of using synthetics. Oil companies hate losing money, even to a small company like Amsoil. However you will also find that since Dino oil is their main source of revenue, they do not put in the effort to make a synthetic that will last as long as Amsoil.
Changing your oil more, keeps their profits high.
Remember we in the United States are the ones who buy into this 3000 mile thing. In Europe their base line for change is around 10,000 miles. Capitalism will always find a way to convince people that they need to spend money. I know some will say that Amsoil is expensive. I say expensive compared to what?

If you travel 25,000 miles and change at 3,000 mile intervals, you would need 40 qts of oil and 8 filters on average.

Dino Oil- most major companies.
1.50/qt x 40=$60.00
5.00 per filter x 8 = $40.00
Total=$100.00

Amsoil-25,000 miles or 1 year whichever comes first.
5.70/qt x6=$34.20
10.00/filter x 2 = $20.00
Total=$54.20

As with everthing in life, time always proves that technology brings change and that some people are resistant to that change.
I always find it interesting that people say that oil is the blood of the vehicle and that you want it clean. Now here's one for ya. Our blood has been in our bodies since the day we were born. I would venture to say that since no one goes in and have their blood change to make it clean, then the filtering system of our bodies must be so advance that we live long lives.
Companies like Amsoil continue to research and improve their oils and filters, they may never reach the quality of the human body, but they continue to try.

Just my .02

fender4

Tom2

People used to say that you can go a shitload of miles before having to change your synthetic oil, compared to regular oil. That was the main selling point.

But as others have already said-- oil gets all kinds of contaminents (metal particles, combustion by-products, even water) in it, so using synthetic is not reason to lengthen your oil change intervals.

I agree that synthetic oil is a waste of money in a normal, street driven engine.

But if you're totally against using regular oil, a cheaper way is to use synthetic blends. But instead of buying store-bought blends, you can make your own for much less $$$$

Wires

Keep in mind synthetic will net you another 3-5% more HP from the engine due to reduced friction.

Personally, street engines NEED the synthetic. Stop and go traffic, as well as cold starts are brutal on an engine.


One final note though, whatever you use, changing your oil is really cheap insurance. I doubt the CL has a really cheap block!

MattPegan

you know the manual for an 01-03 cl recommends changing the oil only once every 7500 miles, unless you drive in extreme conditions.

extreme conditions meaning extreme temperatures or racing I believe.

Juker008

Tom, u know that u can't mix and match syn with dino. Everyone knows that to go from dino to syn all u need to do is an oil change to syn. Now to go from syn back to dyno u need to do a motor flush. Blends are specially formulated to allow the lubrication molicules to link/join with each other. Simply mixing dino and syn together will not work.











Juker008

hemants

The cold crank argument seems the most compelling for synthetic oil. Check out the odometer on a taxi cab next time you are in one. Some of them have a million miles on them and are still running fine.

The reason being that they are always running (ie. the theory is that cold starts as opposed to total mileage is what wears your engine).

And most of them are Ford or GM!

Technique

I got my car brand new with 6 miles. I beat the shit out of it and hit the rev limiter all the time, starting the day I drove it off the dealer lot. I have 40k miles and it runs perfect. I change my oil every 10-15k miles with mobile 1.

I did the same thing with my old 92 accord and it ran perfect until I sold it with over 280k miles on it. Mobil 1 every 15k miles is plenty, the oil was still clean when I would change it, well, at least it looked clean, unlike in my old corvette, where it would look black after 5k miles...

Remember, our engines are made of metal, not sugar, you don't need to baby them so much...

fender4

very amsoil related but you can use mobil1 for all the same reasons,,,


http://www.desertsundirectsales.com/...vearticles.htm

if only read one test,, read this one,,

http://www.amsoil.com/performancetests/sequence_3f.htm



or

http://www.amsoil.com/frequent.htm

Tom2

Tom2

Car and Driver had an excellent article on synthetic blends last year (don't remember which issue though) and the article explained that store bought blends are nothing more than full synthetic oil mixed with regular oil. But when they broke it down, it turns out that the amount of synthetic oil in the blends was less than 50%

They suggested that consumers buy a case of full synthetic and a case of regular motor oil and mix them to create their own 50% synthetic blend. This would not only cost less money than buying 2 cases of synthetic blend, but it would also have a larger amount of of synthetic oil than the store bought synthetic blend.

As for your engine flush theory when going from synthetic to dino oil.... well, I don't know where you heard that. It's simply not true.

Synthetic blend oil is nothing more than synthetic oil blended with regular motor oil.

BTW, as a side not, the article correctly suggests that if you're going to make your own blend, be sure to use the same exact weight oil. Also, make sure the ratings match too (mix SJ synthetic with SJ dino oil, for example.)

knv8

all i know is i just changed my mobil1 synthetic oil yesterday and it was dark after 5k miles, I sit in alot of traffic and occassionally floor it.

Slimey

I've tried to stay out of this oil thread, but they're oh so tempting.

I think this point that Tom2 makes is the most compelling issue: DOES IT REALLY MATTER?

We all agree that synthetics have 'better' qualities then dino, and in specific situations these qualities do make a differecne (jet fan engines; racing; temperature or use extremes), but I do question their 'need' in the average street car. There are plenty of engines on the road that last 100s of 1000s of miles without issue related to oil, untoward wear, etc, and have never seen anything but dino.

Change your oil to the manufacturer recommendations and you will most likely be fine.

If you can cite an example of ONE engine that failed (or even prematurely weared to the point of needing repair) because it DID NOT use synthetic oil, then I am perfectly happy to change my mind about this matter. Of course this example will be impossible to find and any conclusions about the perceived benefit of running it with synthetic alone would only be conjecture.

fender4

It's just a matter of perception of what is better,,, you bought a Acura because you wanted something better than a Civic,,, when really a Civic will work "just fine",, this debate is over what is better for our cars, not what will work "Just fine",,, the spirit of america is I can make something better and heres why,,, all labs tests show that synthetic oil works better and then they show us why,, If you use it and percieve you have something better then the sales start,, That why we have Acura in the US,, when most everywhere else it's still Honda. oil debates will never end,,, they just get "BETTER"

Slimey

OK.

I suppose you have a point and in essence (if I get the gist of it) agree with Tom2 and my previous points.

I do agree with the premium vs. non-premium issue that you state, and that most of us here are interested in premium products. You are right, we're aggressive consumers in the US and many of us want the best, if only for the opportunity to say that 'I have the best'.

I'm just not sure if these oil differences really matter in the long run.

r10apple

With all the tests and results out there, imagine it this way:
You and your twin have the same car, same life, same everything. One uses synthetic, the other uses some regular oil. You keep the car forever. At some point, the car with the synthetic may be a bit more efficient, engine might last a little longer, etc...It's not that regular oil is gonna cause any problems no matter how you drive your street car, it's that synthetic may give you a little extra life. it's like a car saying '87' octane (hence, regular) is all that is needed, but you use 93 (premium). Maybe less knock, less ping, maybe a bit better gas mileage and/or performance (minor).
It's simply an upgrade.

scalbert

Bad example, from what I recall the Viper leaves the factory with Mobil1 in the oil pan.

http://www.mobil1.com/experts/factory_fill.jsp

Tom2

Um...yeah.. that's why I said "...assuming that he was making 500 HP with dino oil in his crankcase, not synthetic..."

Do you agree that synthetic oil will increase HP by 3-5% compared with regular motor oil? If so, I have a bridge that you might be interested in.....

Slimey

I agree with this scenario, but

1. It is hypothetical -- well, at least I've never seen the results of such a comparison.
   
   I'd like to see this done with two FLEETS of the same car/engine and the same driving habits. It can be done -- think police cars, taxis, limos, carpool vans...
2. I would guess the end-of-life difference between wear that you are referring to is much farther out then most of us ever take a car (ie: beyond 250K miles), hence negating any benefits of the product.

fender4

yes,, Amsoil has done this with taxi's and trucks,,, the results were very good,,,

scalbert

Actually no, not to that extreme. But between a standard grade dino and a fully synthetic there have been tests showing a 1% - 2% increase. But I have never been able to discern if some of these gains are from the actual oil change; were both tests done with fresh oil (which I do hope they were).

In the end I will stick with synthetics even if it turns out I am throwing money away. The peace of mind is well worth the minimal additional expense (maybe $100 per year). Plus, I do sometimes drive it like a race car... :P

Slimey

OK, where is it? and how many cars in the comparison group fared less well (ie: show me that use of dino caused these cars to fail or prematurely wear leading to major repair).

As I've stated in previous threads, I really get annoyed by people/companies making 'scientific' claims without performing good science. I want to see some good experimental design and good hypothesis testing. I want to see appropriate control groups and quality analysis of data. The presentation of randomly collected data does not yield a (reliable) conclusion. You have to be rigorous. I'll be impressed if you can present something like that to me.

I actually am running synthetic in this car for this very reason (I've posted that before). The thing is I do think I'm throwing away money but, as luck, fortune, or skill and hard work may have it, I can afford to do so without impacting my budget at all.

I still fail to see a good reason for synthetic oil (in your average street car) except for the fact that it is 'premium' and I am one of those American's who love to buy the best.

Wires

It's proven on the dyno buddy.....


Ok, so you think it's stupid that reducing the internal friction with a better lubrication will net you more HP, so why do people (and manufacturers dump in roller lifters and cams?).

Internal drag is nasty! Do a little research and you'll find it out. It's a cheap upgrade that saves you fuel, increases your engine life, and nets you more HP.

On my 4x4 with a supercharger, swapping out all the fluids (engine, differentials, and the tranny fluid for synthetic) made a difference of being able to spin 3 tires at a light versus 2 with the dyno oil..... Gains are real my friend.

Tom2

Proven? Show me. BTW, if you were to dyno the same car back to back, 10 times in a row, you'd get different numbers each time. Do you agree with that? Or do you think the dyno would spit out identicle numbers each pull?

Now, realizing that the dyno pulls would vary, how could anyone make such a lame remark that synthetic oil will net 3-5% increase in power?

I never said reducing friction is a bad thing..... I only said that there's no way in hell you're gonna gain 3-5% HP by changing to synthetic.

Unless you had rubber cement in your crankcase (instead of oil) in the first place.

But believe what you want.....you've got to be pretty gullible to believe that claim.

Tom2

You're a tool.

If that's how you determine "real gains", than I can only laugh....

Did you ever think that there are tons of variables that could allow you to "spin 3 tires at a light"? Road conditions, road surface, ambient temperature, humidity, inflation pressure, just to name a few?


Yeah, we got same "real" HP gains by putting in some Mobil 1. Here, I'll prove it....watch me light 'em up for 2 blocks instead of just my usual 1 block

Nashua_Night_Hawk

To me it is very simple:

At sunnyside Acura, they charge $30 for an oil change (+ Free wash) they use Valvoline Dino oil and Acura's USA filter.

I use Purolator PureOne file ($6) + 5 Qrts of Mobil 1($19-$23) + Plus 25 cents for a washer and I do it myself... It would still cost less thant $30.

which is better, at the dealer or DIY?