Rescuer

let's put this one out there too, because i have gone up against a brand new E46 M3 on the freeway a bunch of times.

so let's say a STOCK E46 M3 vs. a 2001 CL TypeS with CAIntake,headers,exhaust,pullies on the freeway from a start of 50mph and a few starts from 80mph.....what do you think the outcome would be?

keep in mind that a drop down at 50mph AND 80mph put's us in a prime gearing range where we get boatloads of power.

because i have gone up against two BMW's before on the freeway at the same time. one was an E46 M3 and the other was an M5.

the M3 and i would get next to each other at 50mph, he'd honk 3 times and we'd both floor it. since i have all the engine bolt-on's i would completely out accelerate him all the way up to 130 where i'd let off (fear of cops cuz i have too many tickets). we did that drop down several times.

then we also lined up at 80~mph a few times and again i would completely out accelerate him.

now, he had a buddy with him in an M5 that would come flying past us as we were racing and man is that M5 fast! he didn't just pass us casually, he would totally fly past us. the M3 and I were already hauling balls, but the M5 was just amazing to see

so what do you think of what i said about a stock M3 vs. modified CLS at freeway speeds?

don't flame me at all, i am speaking from experience and what happened and what my friends say. i don't know TOO much technical stuff when it comes to power, but i do have a good understanding of it all

Zapata

well considering the auto gearing only really offers hard acceleration through 3rd gear a race from 50mph would still result in a sevear ass beating. Consider this the m3 dynos 300hp at the wheels.....auto with the mods will dyno at most 236hp or so the m3 will pull hard and you will be left staring at the taillights....

Rescuer

well 50~mph is a good drop down for a powerful 2nd gear in my modified CLS.
and even 80 is a prime power range too for a 3rd gear pull.

so all i can speak is from the experience of what happened.

if you guys can get into more detail on gearing and power at freeway speeds that would be helpful.

like i said, the M3 was stock and i am not

Zapata

True but look at the power each car is putting out. With all the modifications you listed you have, at most, 236hp at the wheels while the m3 has approximately 310. The trq difference are too much. Now i'm not saying that you won't pull hard and be close the m3 but unless your friend was taking it easy or there is something wrong with his car then there just isn't any way.

Nashua_Night_Hawk

not a chance... how a 14.6s car can beat 13.5 car is beyond my intelligence... 1s at 100 MPH is just 10 car length...

maybe the M3 driver does not know where is the go fast metal...

TypeSKid

I'm not sure that your buddy driving the //M3 knew what he was doing.

Was it a 6 speed or SMG?

An //M3 with even a decent driver would KILL a modded CL"S!

i only have tires, headers, and intake, and my buddy has a new //M3 convertible, and he MURDERS ME at ANY speed, to the point that I can't even keep up with him.

i believe your story, but I don't believe that your opponent knew WTF he was doin'.

Rescuer

we are not talking 1/4mile times here, we are talking about freeway gearing and power

Rescuer

i must agree with him probably not knowing what he was doing.

for all i know he was going easy because it was a new car (still had dealership plates on it)

so all i can speak is my story about what happened. like i said, i really don't know much about other cars because i don't read up on them and follow technical things like some of you guys do. all i have is my experience in different situations

i'd just really like to learn more about certain cars and this is my way of doing that

Nashua_Night_Hawk

I do not think a stock E46 M3 would dyno at 310 WHP!!

Here is fresh dyno for a Stock E46 M3:




Refrence: http://www.yoy.com/auto/m3.shtml

Nashua_Night_Hawk

So you need that SC.... to pull on new M3!... Damnn it those M3 needs Comptech headers

astro

I wonder how they dyno'd the m3...I thought it couldn't be done, unless the front tires were rolling or something?

SiGGy

Curious...

Why do the front wheels need to be rolling?

Rescuer

front wheels rolling? how come?

Maximized

A CL-S is going to need all the bolt ons and a S/C to walk a E46 M3 from a roll.

If you beat an E46 at any speed without a S/C or Nitrous, you got lucky or dont know the difference between and E36 and E46 M3.

Rescuer

i don't know the difference

all i know is that it said M3 and even my buddy raced this same guy earlier that night in his WRX. if there is a difference in E36 and E46 then i have no idea about that stuff

Nashua_Night_Hawk

so it was an old M3.... he he the old 240HP M3... now they have the 333HP!

astro

the front wheels have to be rolling much the same way that our cars won't rev above 4800 with the transmission not in gear.
the ecu prevents the car from operating in situations that it can't understand. It's widely known that M3's can't be dyno'd because of this.

but for fucks sake, get your heads out of your asses...NO CL-S is going keep up with ANY E46M3 at ANY speed in ANY gear. Bottom line.

Rescuer

or it was a new M3 but he just went easy on this car because it was new. it had dealership plates on it plus the window stickers :P

moomaster_99

From a roll...it negates all the advantages of RWD and part of the advantage of a manual. Cuz the cars are already in motion....the M3 probably lost close to .3-.5 advantage over a 1/4 mile. Staying in the powerband of the CL from 2nd to redline in 3rd....would be enough to stay neck and neck with the M3.

dopeassCLS

Interesting hypothesis....Too bad it's not true.

mike8_5_8to6_1_9

i have raced an 02 e46 from 0 - 80...80 because i gave up almost immediatly after i shifted to 3rd...in every gear the m3 pulled until i hit vtec and it seemed as if it evened out at that point...however he was ahead far enough that i couldnt really tell if it was actually evening out..it was like 6 or 7 lengths

Rescuer

see that's what i was also saying. when i drop it into 2nd gear at 50mph i'm in a very PRIME vtec range which get's me quickly into 3rd gear and then stays in vtec all the way up to 115mph IN 3rd gear.

even at an 80mph drop down to 3rd gear weilds some powerful pull from the CLS with the bolt ons.

AC_RENAMED

Man, I don't know...my 540 on the highway will take out any CLS with all the modded bolt ons, to the point of rear ending (don't know about the 6spd). I do believe this story but I agree with TypeSKid, I don't think the M3 driver knew what the fuck he was doing.

moomaster_99

Why couldn;t be true....I agree that not knowing how to drive the M3 has an effect too.

AC_RENAMED

Well said...a bad driver in an M5 could potentiall lose to a Civic Si (highly unlikely but possible)

Rescuer

i agree with that too.

maybe someday i'll run into this guy again where i could actually talk to him

dopeassCLS

No matter what kind of car you have you gots to know how to drive it. But you can't brag about beating a crappy driver. The E46 M3 is a good second quicker in the 1/4 mi (6sp vs 6sp). Would you believe it if someone said that a stock integra gs-r beat a 6sp CLS? No, it would be the driver not the car. At highway speeds the E46 is just as deadly, it revs higher and puts down more power than the CLS.

civic4982

hmmm...CLS with every bolt on in the world compared to an E46? sounds like a lost cause still... maybe with a supercharger/turbo/nos we can play with those big boys...

GS400_PUSHER

Man I test drove one of those new M3 and it is very quick I was SHOCKED with its topend power. If you pulled on him then you have some serious power in that CL-S. I had one reel me in on the hwy we raced from 70 to 120 and he was closing in the gap at 100mph he was coming by me slowly but surely , oh I got the jump on him too so it took him alittle longer to reel me. If you don't mind me asking you " what did you dyno at, if you dynoed your car."

AC_RENAMED

Probably like 230-234 at best...

Nealoc187

A stock E46 M3 will put put about 270hp and 235tq to the wheels on a Mustang Dyno. Higher on the typical Dynojets that most people dyno on.

The reason they are hard to dyno is because when the rear wheels are spinning and the fronts aren't the ECU thinks the car is spinning the rear tires like as if it were on snow, and kicks in DSC to stop the "out of control" condition. The ECU doesn't know the difference between a car being dynod and a car out of control on slippery roads. There are ways around this however. E46 M3s can be dynod but its not as simple as on some cars.

As for the race story... who knows. Anything can happen on the street.

Rescuer

street? you must not have read the story....

Black CL-S 4-Life

Sounds like the race I had with an WS6.

quikcls

whats his name on here dynoed 240+ whp with just a drop in k & n and one other mod!!!

Fast Gold

U know that M3's have PRIME VANOS range too. His VANOS range is more powerful than ur Vtec. So when u feel that ur Vtec is pulling hard think about the M3 pulling even harder. I will agree with most people here that the M3 driver didnt know what he is doing or he was just playing around with u. Since the M3 and M5 are almost identical in straight line performance i dont see that M5 coming from behind passing the E46 M3 that easy. So the M3 was most likely playing with u.

Nealoc187

You wrote the story yourself... read it again:
You raced him on the highway, which is a STREET as opposed to a RACE TRACK.

swt-cls

I also read in an old Car and Driver that they need a Cooling-Tower to be properly dyno'd. Something to do with the ECU again.

carlsonho

If he just went easy on it, which means that was not even a race. He was just "driving fast" and you were pushing your car hard.

av2

I agreed totally. I driven my gf's sister's CL-Type S and the car is quick. I also drove my buddy's new E46 M3 and there is absolutely no comparasion. Unless the Type S has a supercharger or NOS, there is "zero" chance of winning. Even with a supercharger installed or NOS, your winning chance is still low.

av2

Anyway, after reading your story again, the M3 owner probably did not down shift to a lower gear. If he honked at you three times, he was definely asking for a race. The fact that he kept the transmission at 6 gear all the way won't beat a CL Type S down shifted to third going from 80 mph to 120 mph plus.

I would have assumed many new M3 owners can't drive a stick simply because the car initially was offered only with the 6 speed. People desperatly wanting the car couldn't wait for the SMG II, which by the way is a $2000 option, therefore bought a car then learn as they drive.