JZ

So, now that all of us automatic owners are antiquated and slow, when some of us get the new 6speed what will happen when we face the 3.5L maxima?

So, the real question is this:

Does the extra torque of a bigger motor beat the awesome high end of VTEC?

I will probably trade my car in most likely for the 2004 CL--I just won't be able to sleep knowing how fast a 6 speed would be with all of my current mods. Plus, with that tranny a supercharger would be a no-brainer!!

------------------
Black/black CLS
Comptech headers, springs, swaybars
Koni yellows
Polarg M6 road lamps
Solaris Hi beams
Potenza RE730 225/45/17
Red AEM CAI
Denso Iridium plugs
35% metallic tint

JRock

Off the line, yes. Can the CL-S catch up is the question.

-J

------------------
2001 CL-S Aegean Blue/black interior spoiler, wheel locks, no-navi
Stock for now.

mdaniel

It can if they gear it right. I sure hope it doesn't have 3 overdrives they way ours has 2.

------------------
2001 Silver 3.2CL Type S with Spoiler and Navi
Charter member of the Scratched Rim Club

GoldTypeS_RENAMED

Hey, if people can clutch drop S2000's at 6000 rpm and get 13 sec 1/4 miles, then I don't think we'll have ANY problem with the new Max.

TL_Type_S

I'm very interested to see how this New Maxi is gunna handle the power of a clutch drop w/ 246 lb-ft of low end torque w/ FWD .. This is seriously pushing the FWD envelope, isn't it? How many other manual sedans/coupes offer over 250 hp in a FWD configuration?

1. Maxima (new one)
2. Future Type S (if available)
3. That's all I can think of

I don't see how launching is gunna be any better by dropping the clutch at high rpms in the Max --> it has only caused worse 1/4-mile times for CL-S owners that brake-torked to 2500->4000 rpms. Mad wheel spin --> therefore, this Max better be outfitted w/ some serious rubber, otherwise, I can see how a VTEC Type S will "hang" with it through to say 70 mph .. manual will probably take it in the 1/4 just cuz of the shorter gearing and the higher-tork.


------------------
2002 Acura TL-S
White Diamond Pearl/Parchment
Bone Stock
<A HREF="http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=1629963&a=12459969&f=0
" TARGET=_blank>Click Here for Pics!
</A>

Tom2

People have been saying this for years, yet FWD cars just keep getting more and more powerful. I remember when people were saying that the Taurus SHO was too powerful for a front driver. What makes you think that there's a limit to the power that a front driver can handle?



------------------
99 M3
dead CL-S

Tom2: The Voice Of Reason

mdaniel

What about the CV joints? Given available materials, there has to be a limit to how much power you can run through them and still have the car turn tighter than an aircraft carrier. I think the ultimate limiting factor will be traction. The faster a car accelerates, the more the weight shifts back. Physics is a bitch. There's only so much you can do about that and still have a suspension that's sellable to the mass market.

------------------
2001 Silver 3.2CL Type S with Spoiler and Navi
Charter member of the Scratched Rim Club

Kevin

I also believe that the NEw MAxima is supposed be be bigger then the current style that could add more weight and possbily nullify the off the line advantage it may have. If they keep it the same size then I think it would be a very tight race vs the 6-sp CL-S. FYI, Nissan is coming out with a 6-sp Sentra Vspec this fall. I wouldn't be suprised to see that Tranny find its way into the 3.5L Maxima

------------------
2001 CL Type S
San Marino Red/Parchment
Spoiler, wind deflector,Wheel locks, Non Nav
No mods yet

JRock

What about buying some retarded giant, two-tier hood wing to weigh down the front and block your line-of-sight?



------------------
2001 CL-S Aegean Blue/black interior spoiler, wheel locks, no-navi
Stock for now.

TL_Type_S

Well, for one I seem to remember a post w/ a clip of a review discussing a twin-turbo Saab -- The 9-5 Viggen I believe, having an unsettling amount of torque-steer through launch. The reviewer stated there was more than ample power, but it was difficult to moderate in the FWD design.

I'd say with the issues of torque-steer, traction at launch, and the instrinsic defeat of FWD in turns/twisties, where's the sense in continuing to upgrade the hp past 260(+/-) w/o switching to a RWD platform? Well, we are selling these cars to the fickle U.S. population, and we all know how adwizards love to flaunt the hp figures in their commercials.

The physical principles that mitigate RWD's superiority over FWD will never change, regardless of what they did or didn't think the SHO could handle w/ the Yamaha tuned engine. In a straightaway, hell, I've seen Civics pulling low 13's and high 12's w/ NOS and an assortment of modifications to the transmission and front-end --> don't recall them running the "S"-course, however.

------------------
2002 Acura TL-S
White Diamond Pearl/Parchment
Bone Stock
<A HREF="http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=1629963&a=12459969&f=0
" TARGET=_blank>Click Here for Pics!
</A>

moomaster_99

I know you have seen those civics with 400hp+. They snap shafts, but then look at how weak their shafts are and then they get aftermarket ones and voila!! Honda can make better shafts if needed.

------------------
2001 Cl-S Black on Black with Navigation
Black Tint all around (15%~45%)
Weapon-R Dragon Filter
Weapon-R Coil-Overs
Koni Adjustable Struts
Comptech Sway Bars
Comptech Headers (hehehe...I got something for you drchang!!)
14.698 @95.977mph....Sears Point Raceway.
I think I need a Level 10 Torque Converter!!

2000MaximaSE

Uhm the only reason you can rev up an s2000 and drop the clutch is because of the lack of torque. Your rev one of our cars up tp 6000 and drop the clutch and you will be smoking your tires for days. Case in point the new maxima will win

Adam

------------------

2000 Maxima SE

Wyle E. Coyote

I'm sorry, but if I decide I want something with more power than the CL-S, or something with a stick, I'll definitely get a RWD, likely a BMW or S2000. I just feel that so much power in a FWD is a waste if it can't handle it.

Just an opinion.

Personally, I would love to have my CL-S and a sunny day/weekend RWD w/manual runner like the S2000 or Z3.... etc.

------------------
2001 Acura 3.2CL Type-S
Satin Silver/Ebony
No Navi/No Spoiler
Competch springs
35% tint
PIAA 19169 bulbs
K&N 33-2178 air filter

The Aviation Zone

[This message has been edited by MikeN (edited 05-18-2001).]

URIRx98

DO any one know where i can get any info on the new maxima. id really love to look at eh stats and a pic oof it if there is one. Any got any links on it.
wg

------------------
The SILVER STREAKER CL-S no navi, spoiler, tint all around, moonroof visor,
indaglo emblom, ACURA.CL.com stickers, eurolights fog lights, bel 950 radar detector, and 2 chamber flowmaster exaust
hyperwhie highbeams and corner lights, and eyeball fogs. 620+ posts makes me still a freak on the old Cl page.
my cl-s http://albums.photopoint.com/j/Album...725&a=11443786

PimpGold

Just a quick note in response to the Saab Viggen post: the problem in that case isn't the amount of horsepower, it's the suddenness of the boost when the turbo kicks in.. with vehicles like the Maxima and the CL-S, which have a smoother delivery of power, torque steer is much easier to manage.

------------------
01' Yellow Type R
PIAA Headlights
Comptech Air Filter
replaced an '01 CL-S

gavriil

The way Saab has minimized, if not solved, the torque steer problem at launch is by entering some code in the ECU. In first gear the engine makes like 185 lb-ft of torque and in second a little more (cant remember the exact numbers, something like 195 pounds maybe). Then after 3rd gear is in, the engine is allowed to make max torque. Of course that is easier to do in a turbo engine, but I am sure it can be done in an NA application. Change timing, ignition, even change the throttle position like the VSA does anyway.

Maybe that is the solution Nissan and Acura will apply. Of course, I cannot imagine a manual tranny CLS without 235mm wide sticky summer tires which will make a big difference. The combination of the 2 above may be the solution to minimize the problem but I do not see eliminating.

------------------
Gabriel
CL Type S

gavriil

Guys, it just hit me. Could it be that the manual versions of TLS/CLS will actually be AWD with the VTM4? I know we have speculated on that many times but could it be that we will see this application later this year ALREADY? Imagine that. Forget torque steer problems. Even if that torque goes to 275 pounds, no problem at all.

AWD makes more and more sense for Acura. I mean it is not only Audi any more. Look at Jaguar with the X-Type. There is no other option other than AWD! And BMW and Mercedes do have that option and in the case of Merc, it will be getting to be an option on more cars (even the next gen. of the CLK will be available in an AWD option).

Bottom line, it would not be a surprise to see Acura come out with this option. The question is: when? Could it be this year?

If that were the case, let me tell ya. Acura should be given the "manufacturer with the fastest introduction of new applications" award. These guys are working day and night with no sleep

------------------
Gabriel
CL Type S

[This message has been edited by gavriil (edited 05-19-2001).]

mrdeeno

what do you mean 'not a surprise'?!?!

due to their tight-ass lips (or tight ass-lips), everything they freakin' do is a surprise...when they decided to put TWO emergency trunk releases in the trunk, i was like, "woah!"



[This message has been edited by mrdeeno (edited 05-19-2001).]

JRock

If the stick versions DO have AWD, they would be head-to-head competition for the new versions of the GrandPrix and possibly either the Impala or the Monte Carlo that GM will probably produce with AWD and higher hp output to help ease the loss of the f-bodies in '03.

Just my $.02.

-J

------------------
2001 CL-S Aegean Blue/black interior spoiler, wheel locks, no-navi
Stock for now.

EricL

Hmmm.... Lets see...

AWD, 300HP, 6 speed, what other options.

As long as this is speculation, would someone speculate on the delivery cost of the car with a bunch of differentials and other expensive goodies.

Just wondering if people are expecting the car to come out for the same price or have:

1. The off-road edition (All wheel drive and pneumatic suspension).

2. Drag strip model -- All wheel drive with 80% rear/ 20% front power distribution. (Comes with your favorite drag action figure). (oops -- forgot, has 350HP, 4 Liters, and 275/35 rubber on 19" wheels all for 29K [NAVI included with pictures, icons, and map data for of all drag strips]

3. Twist-Master model -- lowered 3 inches with all wheel drive, turbo charged, rear wheel drive, 10,000 rpm redline, sequential gearbox. Full road racing suspension and 1G cornering with 320HP for only 27K.


Dreaming is nice, but if everyone is already complaining about quality issues, what kind of paint will these vehicles have. Will the doors have leather straps with buckles?

BTW -- I like to dream as much as the next guy. However, some of this sounds like someone had too much time with "morph toys".

(just a few dozen thoughts)

------------------
Silver 2001 CL-S with NAVI

• Mud guards
• Wheel locks
• Toyo T1S 235/45ZR17-97W* Proxies on 17x8" SSR Competition wheels (48lbs less than stock)
• Kevlar/SS Brake lines w/Brembos?
• Comptech headers & sways
• Silver AEM CAI
• 10 coats of Zaino magic

TL_Type_S

At any rate --> it wouldn't need to be de-tuned or "dumbed" down in a RWD vehicle. That's exactly my case against high hp FWD autos .. you'll have to worry about torque-steer, low-end torque issues w/ traction, balance, .. worseing weight distribution w/ increased displacement must come into play also.



------------------
2002 Acura TL-S
White Diamond Pearl/Parchment
Bone Stock
<A HREF="http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=1629963&a=12459969&f=0
" TARGET=_blank>Click Here for Pics!
</A>

gavriil

You know I just remembered that Cadillacs are FWD and put out 300 pounds of torque on those front wheels and I dont hear much complaint about torque steer from owners or mags. Tire size of the Deville DTS for e.g. is 235X55X17. Not sure what the tires are but I would not suppose they are S03s or something to that.

------------------
Gabriel
CL Type S

TL_Type_S

True, I remember the Cadillac's stats:

http://www.cadillac.com/seville/index.htm

It's also a 4027lb auto running the 0/60 in 6.7 seconds according to the "magracers" @ Cadillac.com. Furthermore, it's StabiliTrak system keeps all that power in-check, I'm not quite sure if you're able to disengage the traction control system of your own accord (e.g. VSA off). I'd imagine w/ improvements in torque-sensitive steering, torque-steer would be rather mute in a car w/ high hp, FWD (pretty mute in the TL-S by my observations). However, the 300hp/295lb-ft. seems to be outfitted in the Seville to accomodate that husky 4000lbs weight, and to also maintain a strong ability to accelerate.

I guess I'm continuing to re-invent my initial observation; given a more sporty vehicle, such as the Max or TypeS, putting in a more powerful engine in a FWD would require more technology to moderate that power during certain parts of the driving experience (such as launches and turns) -- places where many people value that increase in hp the most. This sort of dimishes the value of increasingly beefing up the engines in FWD autos. RWD's cars, on the other hand, can continue to see dramatic improvements in hp w/o end and ..their performance only continues to escalate w/o compromises any other part of the driving experience .. I guess the '01 M3 is a good example, 333 hp up from 240hp .. yet it still handles like a gem -- some say better than before.

FWD was created, almost solely, to appease the concerns of the traction problems in RWD autos (i.e. oversteer and fishtailing/inclement weather). In the big picture, it appeals to a different breed of automobile consumer, and some reasons include the fact that most RWD autos are typically rather more expensive than FWD autos -- and subsequently typically outperform their FWD counterparts in dry conditions.

From what I understand -- doesn't the VTM-4 system work by allowing the car to launch from 0mph w/ RWD power, and then shift to FWD exclusively while cruising?

$0.02

------------------
2002 Acura TL-S
White Diamond Pearl/Parchment
Bone Stock
<A HREF="http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=1629963&a=12459969&f=0
" TARGET=_blank>Click Here for Pics!
</A>

Tom2

Totally wrong. AWD is not optional, it's standard. Do you really think Jag would sell front drive X-Types? Or for that matter, front drive anything?

And there are options on the X-Type. Plenty of them.


------------------
99 M3
dead CL-S

Tom2: The Voice Of Reason

Tom2

The Saab Viggen is definitely known for its "torque steer" problem, but the problem is a result of poor design.

Anyone that remembers the early FWD cars knows that nearly all of them suffered from excessive torque steer. There have been so many design advances to eliminate/minimize torque steer since then. Anyone ever heard of equal length halfshafts? This design alone did MUCH to help solve the torque steer problem. Early FWD cars usually had unequal length halfshafts, due to the design of a tranversed mounted engine/transaxle.

Saab could have gone back to the drawing board and redesigned the front end geometry to minimize the torque steer problem. Instead, they took the easy way out as gavriil said by artificially limiting the torque in the lower gears.


As far as CV joints are concerned-- don't think that there aren't CV's out there that can't withstand massive power/torque. Did anyone stop to think that there are plenty of high power RWD cars with independent rear suspension that are using CV joints out back?

------------------
99 M3
dead CL-S

Tom2: The Voice Of Reason

[This message has been edited by Tom2 (edited 05-19-2001).]

TL_Type_S

I wouldn't put anything past "Jaguar" in the future, considering the X-Type is supposedly built off the Taurus/Mondeo platform. Like father, like son. Ford, uuuugghh....

------------------
2002 Acura TL-S
White Diamond Pearl/Parchment
Bone Stock
<A HREF="http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=1629963&a=12459969&f=0
" TARGET=_blank>Click Here for Pics!
</A>

JRock

I think that's what he meant by "there's no other option".

-J

------------------
2001 CL-S Aegean Blue/black interior spoiler, wheel locks, no-navi
Stock for now.

Tom2

Exactly. That illustrated my point perfectly. Ford decides to base the X-Type off of a front drive platform, but knowing that it would be a cardinal sin for a front drive Jag, they decide to make it all wheel drive.

I suspect you'll see as many FWD Jags as you see FWD Bimmers on the roads......


------------------
99 M3
dead CL-S

Tom2: The Voice Of Reason

Tom2

Hmmm... I can't interpret what he meant, only what he wrote:

"Look at Jaguar with the X-Type. There is no other option other than AWD"

Anyway, who knows? Who cares?



------------------
99 M3
dead CL-S

Tom2: The Voice Of Reason

Cap'n Carl

Hey, I noticed you are from Tempe. A few months ago, did you race a Solara, on Broadway eastbound from Rural road?

DtEW

Since everyone else seems to be dreaming in one form or another, here's what I hope will be the near future of automobiles:

200hp w/IMA
FWD, CVT
Monocoque of seam-welded Hi-ten/CroMo
3-door hatchback
4 adult seats
2300lbs
28/45mpg methanol

That's the daily driver for "sedate" people.

The weekend/aggressive driver will use the same powerplant:

200hp w/IMA
MR, sequential clutchless manual
Monocoque of bonded aluminum extrusions
2-door convertible
2 seats
2000lbs
28/45 mpg methanol

The collapse of the oil cartel (MobilExxon, Texaco, Chevron, etc.) from intenational prosecution for price-fixing and environmental atrocities finally results in the culmination of alternative fuel technologies. Crude prices rise from supply exhaustion.

The rising cost and unpopularity of the refined fossil fuel products that are needed to produce the large swaths of plastic, interiors will become simplified, and surfaces will return to bare/textured/painted recyclable metals. Crash protection will be handled by multiplex airbag systems. In absence of these systems, 4-point harnesses are equipped.

Due to political pressures of rising insurance premiums, the issuance of driving permits/licenses is overhauled. The issuance of a permit/license requires a two-week course in driving safety and technique, from training efficient eye movements to reflexive high-performance cornering (for collision avoidance). Annual retests are required.

Public transportation infrastructure will need to be vastly improved.

Of course, all vehicles over 2 tons will be required by law to hurtle in divided, specially designated "dinosaur" lanes.

------------------
051/LP/SR/LD/HH
Potenza S-02 Pole Position

The Reasonable Voice of Bias

[This message has been edited by DtEW (edited 05-20-2001).]

TL_Type_S

Do you frequent the BMW boards often?


------------------
2002 Acura TL-S
White Diamond Pearl/Parchment
Bone Stock
<A HREF="http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=1629963&a=12459969&f=0
" TARGET=_blank>Click Here for Pics!
</A>

[This message has been edited by TL_Type_S (edited 05-20-2001).]

gavriil

Jrock, there is no hope with this guy. This person has serious comprehension problems that are known to exist only in secondgraders or ill people that need special care. He will do anything to just right the words "...you are wrong..." or anything to that. He obviously is getting satisfaction from confrontation. Typical M3 owner in a non-M3 board.

------------------
Gabriel
CL Type S

[This message has been edited by gavriil (edited 05-20-2001).]

Tom2

[QUOTE]Originally posted by gavriil:
This person has serious comprehension problems

Yeah, right. You write a simple sentence that is crystal clear, and I have comprehension problem? I know that English is not your primary language, so I'll let you slide this time. Whenever you want an English lesson, give me a shout....

He will do anything to just right the words "...you are wrong..." or anything to that. He obviously is getting satisfaction from confrontation. Typical M3 owner in a non-M3 board.

Glad to see that you think you have me all figured out. But like you already said, "...you are wrong...". Typical from a CL-S owner that spends his entire life inside reading magazines. Come on graviil, get out and drive, will ya?

By the way, I still think that its funny that you always answer my posts by writing to "other" forum members...... LOL

]



------------------
99 M3
dead CL-S

Tom2: The Voice Of Reason

Tom2

Don't worry about it. You ask too many personal questions about me. You want to know what I do for a living, who I work for, etc....

Mind your own business, okay?


------------------
99 M3
dead CL-S

Tom2: The Voice Of Reason

GoldTypeS_RENAMED

My point is that a slightly harder launch should be able to make up for some torque deficiencies like it can in the S2000. Especially since the difference in torque between the Max and the CL-S is going to be relatively small (about 20-30 ft-lbs). I wouldn't expect a 6-speed CL-S to have to be clutch dropped at 6000rpm. Maybe 2500rpm however....

Tom2

I remember watching a show about the S2000 (could have been Motorweek or Car and Driver, I don't remember) that they claimed that the 0-60 time for the car was about 6 full seconds slower when they launched it from 3000 RPM instead of 6000 RPM. Or something like that-- I'm not totally sure, 'cause I don't live by magazine numbers.....

But I do remember that the difference was something ridiculous....

------------------
99 M3
dead CL-S

Tom2: The Voice Of Reason

[This message has been edited by Tom2 (edited 05-20-2001).]

TL_Type_S

LOL! I've asked you what you did for a living and who you worked for, and if you frequent the BMW forums --> I'm stalking you now!! Awww... don't get angry bud, you'll be alright. It's very apparent you're bitter, and suffering from some sort of complex that propels you to post on this board time and time again to invalidate someone, or to drone on about the inadequacy of Acura autos, their owners, and their sense of enthusiasm about their ownership. I really could care less about who you are or what you do, Don't flatter yourself .. hehe.. you remind me of that know-it-all in grade school that generally was quite smart, but had no friends nonetheless as a result of his egotistical nature. Have a nice day, "bud."


------------------
2002 Acura TL-S
White Diamond Pearl/Parchment
Bone Stock

1999 E320 4-matic
M3_Killer .. in the snow.
<A HREF="http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=1629963&a=12459969&f=0
" TARGET=_blank>Click Here for Pics!
</A>

[This message has been edited by TL_Type_S (edited 05-20-2001).]

[This message has been edited by TL_Type_S (edited 05-20-2001).]

Tom2

------------------
99 M3
dead CL-S

Tom2: The Voice Of Reason

GoldTypeS_RENAMED

I think what you're talking about is someone did a test where they shifted at 5500rpm instead of redline. The 0-60 time rose to something ridiculous like 11 seconds.