rear spoiler.........is it functional?
06-22-2002, 01:22 PM
#2
Capo di Tutti Capi
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: North East, MD
Posts: 400
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: rear spoiler.........is it functional?
Originally posted by jaysco
Anyone that has the rear spoiler, have you noticed any affect on handling?
Anyone that has the rear spoiler, have you noticed any affect on handling?
06-22-2002, 02:51 PM
#5
Senior Moderator
I customized my spoiler, when I push my car..ummmm...to say about 180-190mph, the spoiler actually raises "aerodynamic stability enhancement" So yes, with some slight modification, it is functional.
06-22-2002, 03:20 PM
#6
Powered By HONDA
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Somewhere
Age: 49
Posts: 2,582
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
yah it really works..but it only works at high speed as the air current is strong and push the rear end down..so it is more stable...but it is going to be slower than those cls without rear spoiler....
06-22-2002, 03:48 PM
#7
Old timer
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: .
Posts: 9,224
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by 1SICKLEX
Well they help drag on some cars which in turn helps fuel economy.
Well they help drag on some cars which in turn helps fuel economy.
Trending Topics
06-22-2002, 03:48 PM
#8
Old timer
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: .
Posts: 9,224
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by IntegraVT
However, the spoiler is great for opening/closing the trunk without leaving smudges on the car and collecting road dust on the rear bumper.
However, the spoiler is great for opening/closing the trunk without leaving smudges on the car and collecting road dust on the rear bumper.
06-22-2002, 06:53 PM
#10
-iii-(
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Philly
Age: 42
Posts: 2,299
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by JRock
I close my trunk by grabbing the indentation that houses the emergency release on the inside of the trunk door and close it via that. No touching anything on the outside. Works great especially with the spoiler to help weigh it down a little.
I close my trunk by grabbing the indentation that houses the emergency release on the inside of the trunk door and close it via that. No touching anything on the outside. Works great especially with the spoiler to help weigh it down a little.
06-22-2002, 10:41 PM
#13
Advanced
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 78
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by synth19
Is it possible to have this many sarcastic replies in one thread?
Is it possible to have this many sarcastic replies in one thread?
06-23-2002, 04:21 AM
#16
6 speed...
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: houston
Age: 53
Posts: 1,386
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by KavexTrax
on a front wheel drive car,
purely aesthetics
on a front wheel drive car,
purely aesthetics
consequently, after a few tt's were crashed, audi made the decision to add a spoiler to every tt sold (fwd or awd) to disrupt laminar air flow off the rear window and reduce this tendency to lift at high speed.
06-23-2002, 06:08 AM
#18
Banned
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: NYC
Posts: 3,335
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by tankmonkey
this is not always true. the audi tt body shape, without spoiler, generates rear-end lift at higher speeds whether fwd or awd.
consequently, after a few tt's were crashed, audi made the decision to add a spoiler to every tt sold (fwd or awd) to disrupt laminar air flow off the rear window and reduce this tendency to lift at high speed.
this is not always true. the audi tt body shape, without spoiler, generates rear-end lift at higher speeds whether fwd or awd.
consequently, after a few tt's were crashed, audi made the decision to add a spoiler to every tt sold (fwd or awd) to disrupt laminar air flow off the rear window and reduce this tendency to lift at high speed.
06-23-2002, 07:30 AM
#19
Old timer
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: .
Posts: 9,224
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: ever notice...
Originally posted by acuraboy
those add-on deflectors that truck drivers put on top of their cabs? those reduce the drag that the trailer sees.
those add-on deflectors that truck drivers put on top of their cabs? those reduce the drag that the trailer sees.
06-23-2002, 02:07 PM
#22
Instructor
Originally posted by JRock
I'm pretty sure it's physically impossible to REDUCE drag by putting more surface area into the wind.
I'm pretty sure it's physically impossible to REDUCE drag by putting more surface area into the wind.
A more compelling example is the front air dam, which greatly increases the surface area directly exposed to air flow. Without the an air dam, the air flows underneath the car, where all of the things that stick out cause turbulence and increase both lift and drag. The air dam directs more air flow around the sides of the car, reducing both.
A wing's main purpose is to generate down force, and the addition to drag is minimal, but I believe that in non-fastback cars, it's possible to get a slight improvement in drag due to reduced turbulence resulting from the redirected air flow.
I wish Acura said something about drag on their website, but I read a G35 review in last week's Sunday paper that mentioned the drag and with the addition of the rear spoiler. I did a web search and found the same info: "The G35 has an exceptional coefficient of drag measurement of just 0.27 (0.26 with optional rear spoiler)".
06-23-2002, 05:50 PM
#23
Unregistered Member
A rear spoiler on a front wheel drive car is just retarded.
Why would you want to have more downforce over the rear wheels on a front driver? More downforce on the rear will only be offset by lifting weight off the front wheels (which in the case of the CL are the DRIVE wheels!)
You rear spoiler is for looks, and I think it looks better without the spoiler anyway, so I guess the rear spoiler is for NOTHING!
Why would you want to have more downforce over the rear wheels on a front driver? More downforce on the rear will only be offset by lifting weight off the front wheels (which in the case of the CL are the DRIVE wheels!)
You rear spoiler is for looks, and I think it looks better without the spoiler anyway, so I guess the rear spoiler is for NOTHING!
06-23-2002, 06:07 PM
#25
Powered By HONDA
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Somewhere
Age: 49
Posts: 2,582
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
one more thing..the rear spoiler for the street cars,has more visual effect than its real purpose...
as u can seen on the tv..those race cars' rear wind can be adjusted at any time and any angle to be most funtional and effective due to the wind speed and weather and temp...so.
and i personally think cls looks better with a rear spoiler on..that is why i am thinking of getting one.. anyone offer a good price?
as u can seen on the tv..those race cars' rear wind can be adjusted at any time and any angle to be most funtional and effective due to the wind speed and weather and temp...so.
and i personally think cls looks better with a rear spoiler on..that is why i am thinking of getting one..
anyone offer a good price?
06-23-2002, 07:34 PM
#27
Old timer
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: .
Posts: 9,224
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by codehead
Without the an air dam, the air flows underneath the car, where all of the things that stick out cause turbulence and increase both lift and drag.
Without the an air dam, the air flows underneath the car, where all of the things that stick out cause turbulence and increase both lift and drag.
In your example you end up with NEGATIVE surface area, so of COURSE it's going to be better drag.
A wing stuck on the trunk of the car isn't removing all that underbody drag.
06-24-2002, 08:08 AM
#31
Acura TL-S
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: NYC
Posts: 830
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
flame away...
but after driving my car for about a year with just a drop, i added the oem body kit and the mugen spoiler and the car became more steady at speed 80+ ... it was a very noticeable difference
06-24-2002, 08:30 AM
#32
Masshole
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: MA
Age: 53
Posts: 12,755
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I like the spoiler, it doesn't do a damn thing, but it looks so much better with it than without it. One thing though...I have a factory spoiler...why the fuck didn't Acura REMOVE THE HIGH BRAKE LIGHT IN THE REAR DECK for CL's with factory installed spoilers? It looks so ridiculous with the LED's in the spoiler and the big honkin' light in the rear window too!!!
06-24-2002, 08:40 AM
#33
Pro
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: jersey
Posts: 743
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
that's because
the spoiler is not factory installed. the dealer installs them. it's cheaper that way. the option is make two different rear decks - one with a 3rd brake light and one w/o. or they could sacrifice styling altogether and just make a single rear deck with a 3rd brake light that looks like some kinda pep boys special add-on.
06-24-2002, 08:46 AM
#34
Masshole
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: MA
Age: 53
Posts: 12,755
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
They should have made a flat rear deck then. I mean come on....it looks so stupid like that. I assumed the spoilers were factory only because my 2 GSR's were factory...but then I remembered that spoiler was std. equip. for the GSR. 
06-24-2002, 08:49 AM
#35
6 speed...
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: houston
Age: 53
Posts: 1,386
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by Tom2
A rear spoiler on a front wheel drive car is just retarded.
Why would you want to have more downforce over the rear wheels on a front driver? More downforce on the rear will only be offset by lifting weight off the front wheels (which in the case of the CL are the DRIVE wheels!)
You rear spoiler is for looks, and I think it looks better without the spoiler anyway, so I guess the rear spoiler is for NOTHING!
A rear spoiler on a front wheel drive car is just retarded.
Why would you want to have more downforce over the rear wheels on a front driver? More downforce on the rear will only be offset by lifting weight off the front wheels (which in the case of the CL are the DRIVE wheels!)
You rear spoiler is for looks, and I think it looks better without the spoiler anyway, so I guess the rear spoiler is for NOTHING!
2. downforce can be generated via a "wing" (an inverted airfoil) mounted via structural members directly to (ideally) the rear suspension or (less ideally) to the rear frame of the car. the suspension of the car must be set up to accomodate the additional "weight" of the downforce at speed, so the suspension will generally have to be firmer than most folks comfort levels at all speeds. most production cars, whether front, rear or all wheel drive simply do not have either a properly designed wing, or the appropriate means to transfer the downforce to the suspension (and last I checked, trunklids aren't considered structural members in the frame).
based on the above distinctions, unless your car bears a striking resemblance to an airfoil in cross-section and mr. bernoulli's effect is ruining your day on the autobahn, or you regularly find yourself tailgated by a schumacher, ernhardt, or gentilozzi in rush hour traffic, the appendage on your decklid (whether intended to be a spoiler or other aerodynamic aid) is superfluous no matter which set(s) of wheels are being driven.
as far as appearance, looks are subjective (although I prefer my cars without such decklid adornments).
06-24-2002, 12:19 PM
#36
Unregistered Member
tankmonkey,
Call it whatever you want (spoiler, wing, whatever), but the little thing bolted to the trunklid of the CL definitely is cosmetic.
I'll agree that it does create drag..... that's a no-brainer.
But do you really think that rear wings don't create downforce? You'd be totally wrong.
Read this quote from a Porsche 911 Turbo test:
Anyway, it is stupid to argue about this because the CL spoiler is totally cosmetic, but the fact remains that proper rear spoilers can and do create downforce at high speeds.
Call it whatever you want (spoiler, wing, whatever), but the little thing bolted to the trunklid of the CL definitely is cosmetic.
I'll agree that it does create drag..... that's a no-brainer.
But do you really think that rear wings don't create downforce? You'd be totally wrong.
Read this quote from a Porsche 911 Turbo test:
At the car's top track speed of 189 mph (308 km/h), the wing adds 20 pounds (9 kg.) of downforce.
Anyway, it is stupid to argue about this because the CL spoiler is totally cosmetic, but the fact remains that proper rear spoilers can and do create downforce at high speeds.
06-24-2002, 12:34 PM
#37
Where is my super sauce?
Re: rear spoiler.........is it functional?
Originally posted by jaysco
Anyone that has the rear spoiler, have you noticed any affect on handling?
Anyone that has the rear spoiler, have you noticed any affect on handling?
06-24-2002, 01:15 PM
#38
6 speed...
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: houston
Age: 53
Posts: 1,386
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by Tom2
But do you really think that rear wings don't create downforce? You'd be totally wrong.
Read this quote from a Porsche 911 Turbo test:
Anyway, it is stupid to argue about this because the CL spoiler is totally cosmetic, but the fact remains that proper rear spoilers can and do create downforce at high speeds.
But do you really think that rear wings don't create downforce? You'd be totally wrong.
Read this quote from a Porsche 911 Turbo test:
Anyway, it is stupid to argue about this because the CL spoiler is totally cosmetic, but the fact remains that proper rear spoilers can and do create downforce at high speeds.
1. which part of "most production cars" leads you to believe I meant to exclude all rear wings from the "creating downforce" category? I would think that my use of the word most implies that there are indeed some production vehicles so designed. (the dodge daytona and plymouth superbird of the late 60's/early 70's spring to mind...)
2. do you regard a whopping 20 lbs of downforce at 189 mph (!) as a significant or otherwise meaningful amount, especially in the context of a "useless appendage" argument? hell, I wouldn't be surprised if the margin of error inherent in testing for downforce is around 20 lbs. I also wouldn't be surprised if the spoiler on the 189 mph porsche 911 weighed 20 lbs on its own. that would seem to support the argument that all wings on production cars, including the 911's, are all but useless as a downforce generating device (which I don't necessarily beleive, and I doubt was your intent). I think the fact that the 911 isn't experiencing 200 lbs of lift at 189 mph is more of a testament to the value of having a spoiler on such an airfoil-shaped car.
3. I'm not arguing whether the cl spoiler is purely cosmetic or not (I simply don't care). my original point was this: for a vehicle design with high speed lift issues, a spoiler on the decklid can be enough disrupt the airflow enough over the rear of the vehicle, reducing lift and resulting in a safer vehicle for consumers. further, it doesn't matter whether said vehicle is fwd, rwd or awd, a loss of rear traction at speed due to lift can lead to loss of control of the vehicle. since a spoiler can correct the lifting problems irrespective of which wheels are driven, this may be a valid reason for the addition of a spoiler to certain fwd cars. I am absolutely not saying that a majority of fwd cars need them (or even a significant number), I'm just pointing out the possibility.
4. I addressed the downforce issue solely because you seem to be having some difficulty keeping the concepts of "downforce" and "lift reduction" straight in your head, in addition to displaying a deplorable lack of familiarity with the terminology involved. I would think you'd want a better handle on the issues involved before hauling off and making blanket statements such as "A rear spoiler on a front wheel drive car is just retarded."
06-24-2002, 06:35 PM
#39
Unregistered Member
Originally posted by tankmonkey
if I recall correctly (and I do) I said: "most production cars, whether front, rear or all wheel drive simply do not have either a properly designed wing, or the appropriate means to transfer the downforce to the suspension (and last I checked, trunklids aren't considered structural members in the frame)."
You are contradicting yourself with that statement alone. If I recall correctly (and I do), the Porsche 911 rear wing is attached to the trunklid, not an integral part of the frame or suspension.
Didn't you say that it must be, "...mounted via structural members directly to (ideally) the rear suspension or (less ideally) to the rear frame of the car...."?
Hmmmm.... seems to me that it is a proven fact that it does create downforce, even though it is not part of the frame/suspension.
1. which part of "most production cars" leads you to believe I meant to exclude all rear wings from the "creating downforce" category? I would think that my use of the word most implies that there are indeed some production vehicles so designed. (the dodge daytona and plymouth superbird of the late 60's/early 70's spring to mind...)
You also said that, "spoilers generate drag, not downforce", then followed up with, "downforce can be generated via a 'wing'...." It would seem pretty clear to me that you believe ONLY wings can create downforce, and spoilers generate drag only. This is the area that you are confused.
2. do you regard a whopping 20 lbs of downforce at 189 mph (!) as a significant or otherwise meaningful amount, especially in the context of a "useless appendage" argument?
Of course it is significant. Any downforce at high speed will help the rear end stay planted, which is especially beneficial to a rear drive car[/b]
hell, I wouldn't be surprised if the margin of error inherent in testing for downforce is around 20 lbs. I also wouldn't be surprised if the spoiler on the 189 mph porsche 911 weighed 20 lbs on its own. that would seem to support the argument that all wings on production cars, including the 911's, are all but useless as a downforce generating device (which I don't necessarily beleive, and I doubt was your intent).
Are you kidding me? Downforce is measured on top of the weight of the wing itself. In other words, it created an ADDITIONAL 20 lbs of downforce. Adding additional weight to a car will not increase the downforce at any speed.
I think the fact that the 911 isn't experiencing 200 lbs of lift at 189 mph is more of a testament to the value of having a spoiler on such an airfoil-shaped car.
3. I'm not arguing whether the cl spoiler is purely cosmetic or not (I simply don't care). my original point was this: for a vehicle design with high speed lift issues, a spoiler on the decklid can be enough disrupt the airflow enough over the rear of the vehicle, reducing lift and resulting in a safer vehicle for consumers.
Fine. But let's be reaistic here-- the discussion started over the Acura CL, which is a vehicle that does not have high speed lift issues, so a rear decklid spoiler does nothing (except create a little drag, therefore lowering the top speed of the vehicle).
This entire argument was over the fact that you said that a rear spoiler can not create downforce. But it obviously can.
further, it doesn't matter whether said vehicle is fwd, rwd or awd, a loss of rear traction at speed due to lift can lead to loss of control of the vehicle. since a spoiler can correct the lifting problems irrespective of which wheels are driven, this may be a valid reason for the addition of a spoiler to certain fwd cars. I am absolutely not saying that a majority of fwd cars need them (or even a significant number), I'm just pointing out the possibility.
Like I said before, downforce on the rear=less weight over the front (which is NEVER good on a front drive car)
4. I addressed the downforce issue solely because you seem to be having some difficulty keeping the concepts of "downforce" and "lift reduction" straight in your head, in addition to displaying a deplorable lack of familiarity with the terminology involved. I would think you'd want a better handle on the issues involved before hauling off and making blanket statements such as "A rear spoiler on a front wheel drive car is just retarded."
I know the difference between downforce and lift reduction. You seem to have a problem understanding downforce, though...
I stand by my original statement that it is retarded to have a rear spoiler on a front drive car.
if I recall correctly (and I do) I said: "most production cars, whether front, rear or all wheel drive simply do not have either a properly designed wing, or the appropriate means to transfer the downforce to the suspension (and last I checked, trunklids aren't considered structural members in the frame)."
You are contradicting yourself with that statement alone. If I recall correctly (and I do), the Porsche 911 rear wing is attached to the trunklid, not an integral part of the frame or suspension.
Didn't you say that it must be, "...mounted via structural members directly to (ideally) the rear suspension or (less ideally) to the rear frame of the car...."?
Hmmmm.... seems to me that it is a proven fact that it does create downforce, even though it is not part of the frame/suspension.
1. which part of "most production cars" leads you to believe I meant to exclude all rear wings from the "creating downforce" category? I would think that my use of the word most implies that there are indeed some production vehicles so designed. (the dodge daytona and plymouth superbird of the late 60's/early 70's spring to mind...)
You also said that, "spoilers generate drag, not downforce", then followed up with, "downforce can be generated via a 'wing'...." It would seem pretty clear to me that you believe ONLY wings can create downforce, and spoilers generate drag only. This is the area that you are confused.
2. do you regard a whopping 20 lbs of downforce at 189 mph (!) as a significant or otherwise meaningful amount, especially in the context of a "useless appendage" argument?
Of course it is significant. Any downforce at high speed will help the rear end stay planted, which is especially beneficial to a rear drive car[/b]
hell, I wouldn't be surprised if the margin of error inherent in testing for downforce is around 20 lbs. I also wouldn't be surprised if the spoiler on the 189 mph porsche 911 weighed 20 lbs on its own. that would seem to support the argument that all wings on production cars, including the 911's, are all but useless as a downforce generating device (which I don't necessarily beleive, and I doubt was your intent).
Are you kidding me? Downforce is measured on top of the weight of the wing itself. In other words, it created an ADDITIONAL 20 lbs of downforce. Adding additional weight to a car will not increase the downforce at any speed.
I think the fact that the 911 isn't experiencing 200 lbs of lift at 189 mph is more of a testament to the value of having a spoiler on such an airfoil-shaped car.
3. I'm not arguing whether the cl spoiler is purely cosmetic or not (I simply don't care). my original point was this: for a vehicle design with high speed lift issues, a spoiler on the decklid can be enough disrupt the airflow enough over the rear of the vehicle, reducing lift and resulting in a safer vehicle for consumers.
Fine. But let's be reaistic here-- the discussion started over the Acura CL, which is a vehicle that does not have high speed lift issues, so a rear decklid spoiler does nothing (except create a little drag, therefore lowering the top speed of the vehicle).
This entire argument was over the fact that you said that a rear spoiler can not create downforce. But it obviously can.
further, it doesn't matter whether said vehicle is fwd, rwd or awd, a loss of rear traction at speed due to lift can lead to loss of control of the vehicle. since a spoiler can correct the lifting problems irrespective of which wheels are driven, this may be a valid reason for the addition of a spoiler to certain fwd cars. I am absolutely not saying that a majority of fwd cars need them (or even a significant number), I'm just pointing out the possibility.
Like I said before, downforce on the rear=less weight over the front (which is NEVER good on a front drive car)
4. I addressed the downforce issue solely because you seem to be having some difficulty keeping the concepts of "downforce" and "lift reduction" straight in your head, in addition to displaying a deplorable lack of familiarity with the terminology involved. I would think you'd want a better handle on the issues involved before hauling off and making blanket statements such as "A rear spoiler on a front wheel drive car is just retarded."
I know the difference between downforce and lift reduction. You seem to have a problem understanding downforce, though...
I stand by my original statement that it is retarded to have a rear spoiler on a front drive car.
06-24-2002, 08:23 PM
#40
Masshole
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: MA
Age: 53
Posts: 12,755
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't know you at all Tom2, but I have to say that a high percentage of your posts make you come off as an annoying know-it-all...this last post is one of those. Everyone has a right to their own opinion, and I think the CL WITHOUT a spoiler looks "retarded".
I think it's about time someone said something about your tone...personally, it really gets on my nerves.
I think it's about time someone said something about your tone...personally, it really gets on my nerves.