Chemmech

Yep, our stock injectors look almost anorexic. I bet with a set of those Outlaw Thermoblock Spacers TM, that a really big set of squirters would fit just fine? Hmmm, I think I'm getting very interseted in this mod .

So what size should I get? I also want good driveability though. I don't mind the 3 second 65 to 100 mph thing, just don't wantidle problems, cel's etc.

SCTL-SS

Yes, our stock injectors are pretty miniscule.

I would recommend you talk to Jason at SD and then call RC to see about getting them. From what we're concluding a 900-1000cc injector would do the trick. I know that sounds way too big but the actual data is pointing in that direction. As far as space is concerned, perhaps one can be modified to fit. With good injector selection and good tuning I don't believe idle would be an issue.

scalbert

Hey Jorge, sorry I missed your call. The FPR parts I supplied with the kit are as follows:

Part Number: 361-006-2.7 Calibration Washer
Part Number: 361-014 Calibration Ring

The washer replaced the unit which was in the FPR when it was shipped from Comptech. The ring was an add in to support the smaller washer.

One thing should also be noted, the FPR shipped with the CL-S supercharger kit is not the same as what is sold individually. The had to make some additional changes to the CL-S unit to get the ramp rate to rise quicker. I beleive it has to do with the piston diameter which is not interchangeable since it matches the housing diameter. Even going to the smaller washer is still a greater ramp rate than what the standard/non-CL-S FPR will provide.

SCTL-SS

Steve, Thanks so much for the info. I'll pass it on to the shop when they open.

I wish that I had my car yesterday. I went to a auto-cross event and had my wife's 3.2TL Huh....I could only watch. Not that my car would be that great, but boy would it be fun in the strait-away!!

You should make plans to come and check it out and bring your car. There will be 2 events in mid-April that would be worth participating in(1 major-drag and 1 auto-X).

Chemmech

Wow, 1000cc's? Holy crap, those injectors must be the size of a "D Cell" battery . RC only lists up to the 740cc, 1000cc must be special order?

When you said "do the trick," what were you referring to? Even more performance or solving an issue with the current injectors?

Chemmech

Nevermind, I just read the whole post and see what the issues were.

SCTL-SS

Believe it or not the body is the same size it's the flow rate that is higher. The shop has successfully installed 906cc injectors in a 4 cyl. sentra and it does fine. Another thing is that the needs of 10 lbs. boost might not be the same as 7-9. So maybe my injectors would work good on a lesser demand setup.

Chemmech

I talked with someone from RC yesterday. He recomended that I go with the 440 cc injectors. He said that the E-manage didn't have the necesary resolution to be able to control the idle and off boost conditions properly.

Chemmech

I guess I'll go down there sometime this week and pick up a set of the 440's. There just a couple of miles from my house .

mrsteve

iTrader: (1)

How much do their injectors run? Like $80/each?

SCTL-SS

I wouldn't jump on them so quickly if you would like to eventually do away with the FPR. You may want to talk with Jason at SD and get the feedback from the tuner. Not to mention that 440s is what RCA recommended for my setup and they were at 86% duty cycle...way too high. Even they say not exceed 80%.


They are more like $98 a piece.

mrsteve

iTrader: (1)

SCTL-SS

I know exactly how you feel....

Chemmech

I think the problem is with the idle. the E-manage wouldn't be able to keep the injectors from running too rich with fuel, at idle and off boost conditions ?

SCTL-SS

That is still to be determined. If that is in deed the case perhaps there might be some other "electronic" fix.
It is not uncommon for very big injectors to function nicely(idle, normal driving, etc..) under very low FP levels and without boost.

SCTL-SS

Here is my first actual drive update with the new injectors. It still has a way to go but here is the results: Idle, normal driving, uphill driving is still a little quirky but driveable. We also still have Check eng, VSA and ! lights come on unfortunatley.

But here is the good stuff: I was doing 40-45 when I gave it full throttle it down shifted took off and when it hit third gear it chirped the tires big time( and I have 245s all the way around). It reached 100mph very quickly!! Third gear now acts very much like second used to do. I can hardly believe it...it is quite the ride. They were right when they said "Beast".

The ride was fun but it didn't last. I took it back to the shop gave them the key and left it again.

Hope to do this again soon.

Chemmech

Those are some really impressive results !

I was thinking about the larger injectors, and maybe a way to get them (the 750's) working right. Would adding resistance, by use of resistors be effective? I know it sounds rudimantory, but the E-manage can add the needed pulse width on the top end and the resistance could tame down the bottom end. Or would this be, in effect be just the same as using 440's ?

Chemmech

I wonder if installing the Greddy Pressure sensor would provide the needed resolution?

allmotor_2000

When I get more time... I will re-cal my FPR to a 1:2 rise-rate (max of 70psi fuel pressure) and use the 750cc much more.

SCTL-SS

2nd drive attempt: I once again got to drive the car. They did some adjustments on the map. On this second run it seems that everything is now better: idle is a lot smoother, normal driving is good and even up hills are good. There is a tremendous amount of power at top, but the low to mid seems to have lost some umph. I know that timing was backed off so that might have to be looked at again.

We are replacing the plugs and installing a FP gauge. I'm also hoping that we can do a dyno tune.

If all goes well we'll be at the track next Wednesday.



They had mentioned that as well, but how to actually do it remains to be seen.

SCTL-SS

It will be neat to see the results you get from that. Let us know.

SCTL-SS

Here is another update:
I got to talk with the tech. on Friday afternoon. He actually brought the car to the shop to let me drive it again after he did several more hours of dyno tuning/adjusting. I missed him because I had to work late.
But here is what he told me over the phone. The car is running 100% better then before and he did a dyno run. Apparently the 440s wont work as they are too small. The running data on the dyno indicated leaning out at 6000 RPM and it was only at 63-64% throttle(This particular dyno is one of the most sophisticated/advanced dynos in the state it cost $500,000 and he has access to 2 of them, typical dynos are $25,000-50,000). He did not go a full-dyno-pull(because it being lean). His concern was, as he states, if a car is going to break it most often does it on a dyno. This particular dyno gives you every engine parameter that you can imagine so better safe the sorry. We did at least get one torque figure of 230 at part throttle(63-64%). My previous dyno netted a 232 on full throttle.

We have been in contact with RC in efforts to come up with a better injector option. At this point the 440s wont work. He worked on every aspect of the tuning(e-manage, FPR, etc..) and had several of his colleagues with him and the conclusion was the injectors have to be upgraded. The issue is that they would probably work great on a HBP-5 lbs and even Scalbert's pulley- 8 lbs but I'm running a 10 lbs boost pulley and the engine as a consequence is fuel-starved. We are going in the direction of a 750 injector but would try something else if it would work. We can't think of any other options, so if any one has a suggestion that we haven't tried please feel free to chime in. He did say that he can't go any farther, but when the car is finally right he said "be prepared for some serious numbers". The car in its current condition(not fully tuned, not enough fuel, etc..) chirps 3rd gear(IT NEVER DID THAT BEFORE). Maybe after it is all done maybe it will chirp 4th gear....

If we do go with 750s I would like to post a new thread(If that is ok with the MODS)so as to differentiate that process from this one. If that is ok???

sgmotoring

Are you trying to run stock fuel pressure? I am running 310cc with comptech FPR! Mine runs fine with more than 10psi of boost

SCTL-SS

Yes to the stock pressure and yes to the FPR. With more then 10lbs. You are doing ok with the 310s?? And your running the 3.5 as well??
That is just so odd to us as we are not getting the right mix with the 440s. But if you are hitting 10lbs+...that is at least encouraging that perhaps our problem is elsewhere. Thanks sgmotoring for your input.

mrsteve

iTrader: (1)

Maybe you should have him send you his e-manage programming for you to compare to the data you've had programmed.

SCTL-SS

Great idea, is that possible sgmotoring?

sohfast94

Well after all this I finally come up with a solution to the problem.... One more dyno session and it should be up where it should be. Running way rich and it still smokes the tires at will!!

Chemmech

I wish I was having the same luck with the 550's that your having with the 440's. Can't get the car to run right at all. I've gone back to the stock injectors for now. I need my car as a daily driver, so I'm limited on down time for tunning the car .

speedr73

I know this is a little late in the thread, but don't you think even though you can't actually control the pulse width of the injectors (controlled by the ecu) it is better than additional injectors? Because then you get pooling of fuel if you quickly let off the throttle which causes you to have to "burp" the system to get the pooled fuel out of the intake. Thus causing the engine to run rich for a second. Just wanted to hear your opinion on this.

speedr73

Oh, and I wanted to know after all this tuning if you all have come up with a max boost that we can run. I was thinking of going no higher than 8psi on a TL-P (9.8:1 compression), but was wondering if you 10.5:1 guys are going over 10psi without pistons or rods, then what are our limits? I know allmotor went as high as 7.5psi and made amazing hp, you guys must be rediculous at 10+.

sgmotoring

Sure! Tell me what you need. My is set the same as day! I haven't change any Scalbert setting accept the timing retard chart. All I did was play with the retard page. If you need that I will be more than happy to pm you. I had to replace my injectors because it keep tripping a lean code after the 3.5L block. I don't know why type r is doing fine without injectors. How many psi (fuel) do you have when your car ran lean? It could be a bad FPR, I had one of those . Are you guy trying to run 55-65psi of fuel at full trottle?

mrsteve

iTrader: (1)

Also, why don't you just add a 7th injector? This way you can easily tune the 440s down for driving around normally and at idle, and they have a large (750cc or 900cc) spray fuel like a mad man under boost. E-manage can control the additional injector quite well.

agranado

where exactly is the battle of the imports? Here in FL? I'll go and watch if its not too far

and were you at the meet at markham a few months ago?

-Alex

SCTL-SS

That is truly the best news yet....MUSIC TO MY EARS. This kind of stuff is more then enough to give you sleepless nights. Thanks sohfast94.


It took us many attempts to get it to were it is now, so don't give up. In light of how mine is now doing perhaps you to can now go with the 10 lb pulley as there seems to be plenty of fuel-especially with 550s, I'm sure. (I don't know how "sohfast94" accomplished that but looks like maybe he might have the insite as to what was needed to be done)

speedr73:
We have disussed the issue of another injector. The extra injector does give the possibility of fuel pooling. I've been hoping that we could avoid that. For me the simpler the better. But we never took that of the table as that might have been or only choice.
As for the max boost for our cars perhaps there is some difference between turbo vs SC. The max on a turbo set-up might be 7-8 were maybe a SC might be 9-10. There also seems to be difference in output for the identical boost ex: at 6 psi on a turbo gives out more power then 6 psi on a SC car. As for me I'm hoping that 10 lbs is OK(I don't believe our engines can take any more then that)

Thanks for making that info available for us. I really, really appreciate it.

SCTL-SS

Yes it will be in Orlando. I would say maybe 3.5-4 hrs from you. it is at the intersection of 520 SR 50. April 10 is the date.

I'm hoping that it will be "raceble " by then. There is a place near by that has 104 unleaded race fuel. It would be great to try it.

What meeting was that "markham"?

SCTL-SS

One of the concerns with this is where would be the best location and do you use 1 or 2 of them? And would it be properly atomized?
The other consideration would be the extra fuel line and the need for a supplementary pump. More questions then we have answers for right now.

But Steve your right, we could just use the others for normal to moderate driving and have the extra injector(s) come on when fuel starts to taper of.

mrsteve

iTrader: (1)

Talk to allmotor, he has a 7th injector installed.

Although it sounds like you might have things worked out after all

SCTL-SS

I certainly hope so!!!

I'll be seeing the tuner later today to follow up on all that he worked on last night.

scalbert

The front cover is an ideal location for a couple of extra injectors. They would be right above the runners so puddling would not be an issue.

The pump would be fine as it is easier for it to flow for the extra injectors at stock pressures than it would be even the stock squireters at 100 PSI.

mrsteve

iTrader: (1)

The front cover of the IC?