allmotor_2000

Okay folks... it's going to be NA.

I will have to do this slowly... so here's what will be done first. I have ordered the Comptech clutch/flywheel combo. I am investigating some DOT approved drag tires... not slicks (as they don't really make 16" slicks which is a minimum to clear our brakes etc.). This combination should VERY easily knock off 0.4s off my 1/4-mile. If I take my 'average' 1/4-mile time at say... 14.1 (average conditions.... average track etc.), that should put me in the 13.6-13.7 range... if not better. The lightened flywheel should significantly boost the 'at-the-wheels' horsepower figure as well.

Second will be other bolt-ons such as the UR pulleys, throttle-body work, intake-manifold work (if Mike sells it to me!!), and a NA-specific intake system (similar to a CAI) custom-made. I am also looking into making cam gears. I also need go make an exhaust system (or just keep removing it at the track).

300whp will be VERY difficult to attain without an engine rebuild, but I will try to get as close to it as possible before pulling anything apart. I got word from Hondata that they won't do anything for two more months anyways. It is also very possible that I will port the heads and use a thinner head-gasket to increase compression a tad bit. I might 'mill' the heads 40/1000's as well. This should increase compression to about 11.0:1

That's it for now!

kHmER Co

for all the custom parts your gonna be gettin/making, will you make any of them available to the rest of us? maybe theyll cut the prices, if we did a group buy type thing, i bet many of the other members would want cam gears, and other performance goodies.

typeR

shweeet !

allmotor_2000

I don't think anybody makes cam gears... so if I figure out a cheap way of making them... I'll have a bunch made I suppose!

Doom878

How about MDX crank, boring/stroking, valve job, cf hood? Are those stage II and III?

astro

MIke's intake is mine sucka :P

JakeCL

this should be really cool are you going to strip it back down (as much as you can) when your done like you did with the turbo?

tw1112

Sweet man! Hope the project goes smoothly.

Allout

Glad to hear that it's going to be "All Motor". Good luck with your build. You've got a lot of people pulling for you.

sidemarker

how about dropping in the new mdx motor in there!

sidemarker

I am RobG

i didn't know the comptech clutch and flywheel package was out yet. Mickey Thompson makes a 16X9.5(i think but i know they make a "thin" 16) DOT drag tire. Are you gonna do the porting and polishing yourself? i went to get a price from a shop and they were closed so i was too lazy to go back. I think the only way you're gonna get some real power is if you can get to the block and start boring and stroking. A custom cam idea might work too if you ever thought of that, increase the lift and duration. I think that if you port and polish the heads and throttle body, do some nice pullies, and your typical intake/exhaust/header you'll be at about 280-300whp. I'm more or less at 250 with just i/e/h(247.6). GOOD LUCK!

Slimey

Good choice. I look forward to your progress log and the outcome. Going NA surely will also naturally lead to small projects that the average (or above average) CL user can use.

jimcol711

so basically, your going to spend thousands of dollars to get your car to a point that its not even as fast or as powerful as it was with your turbo.....

i respect your abilities and contributions to the CL world, but this is a dissapointment, i dont see how you could find any satisfaction in going this route? who cares if its NA? youve got the skills and resources to pull out the big big guns, why only go that far? on behalf of those who were hoping to see a turbo IS300 killer, we are a bit dissapointed in this desicion. but good luck in your endeavor!

astro

jimcol, shut your trap, you so obviously know so little about anythin automotive it's infuriating...

jimcol711

you dontknow me, nor do you know what i know or dont know. im sorry if i tell it like it is, but it seems no one else who voted for 500-600hp monster has the balls to admit they are dissapointed in this desicion. take it easy killer, you dont know me, dont act like you know what i know. just because i dont get a boner for NA CL-S doesnt mean i dont know anything about anything....F/I vs NA....NA doesnt "deserve more respect" than F/I in any way at all...if anything F/I deserves more respect as it requires alot more addition tuning and pre-planning to avoid fucking shit up. we've had members here do practically everything he listed that hes going to do.....port/polish, UR pullies, intakes, headers, even 3.5 upgrade....it still doesnt yeild anywhere near the power his turbo setup did. please explain to me how not getting a boner for a NA CL-S means i dont know anything automotive.. i wish i didnt have to tell moderators here to avoid the unprovoked, unneeded personal attacks, but whatever, it seems pretty common place here sometimes.

fuzzy02CLS

iTrader: (2)

Must be nice to have the money & time to test all sorts of car mods as projects.

NOLACLS

How much was the CT clutch/flywheel?? Cna you do a dyno before and after for the lighter FW...will it make a difference in the HP??

Thanks and good luck on your new project!

astro

jim, anyone can strap a turbo on and make big power..
to massage a motor without a turbo, to make big power takes far more work, skill and time....your comments on this board, regularly show your ignorance to such facts.

I am RobG

agreeing with astro. F/I is like throwing a shot of nitrous on. I'm a big fan of supercharging and turbocharging, but if you put a 400hp all motor car next to a 400hp turbocharged, the all motor car will kick its ass all day long.

darrinb

allmotor,

have u ever thought of the stoked 3.5??? that would be ans easy way to get to 300whp.

CLS2001_97124

Good choice allmotor!! I will be waiting for you to kick out some nice numbers in the future!!

Gilgamesh

allmotor, I know a couple places that can cut custom gears, but they would involve shipping etc, once is in WA (state) and we use em all the time....they do good work, and they are even affordable for one offs, we use em for our general work (we have a machine shop) but we don't do automotive, and its a PITA to cut gears, let me know if you want their name.

AtlCl

A lighter flywheel would not make your car dyno more hp, BUT it would make the car accelerate faster and give it better throttle response. Engine makes the same amount of power, the lighter flywheel makes it easier to rev it up and thus accelerate quicker.

jimcol711

anyone can throw on nitrous, sure, but not everyone can throw on a turbo.....turbos are significantly more expensive and require a high degree of engine tuning than nitrous. custom turbo kits require a hell of alot of knowledge that the average joe car enthusiast (admittedly myself included) does not have as where i could easily slap on a nitrous kit no problem. the one thing wrong with your statement is using the term "big power" in reference to what can be made out of a CL-S motor without F/I. 300 WHP is a possibility, but on the other hand, with F/I we could potentially be talking more than DOUBLE that!! now THAT is a number that would deserve the term "big power" regardless of how the power is supplied, the more there is, the more impressive it is. if you are so down on F/I you must have no respect for any Supra, WRX, older gen S4, 3000GT VR4, EVO, skyline GT-R, 300ZX, etc. not to mention, you would also have no respect for ANY civic, integra, accord, etc that runs quick times because lets face it, there isnt a FAST civic, integra, accord, eclipse, etc on the road that doesnt have F/I or nitrous.

if he can get 350-400 NA wheel hp out of the CL-S, now THAT would be impressive, but quite frankly, 300 WHP is just a bore, its been done before in so many ways by quite a few people with a CL-S..granted, most were nitrous or the comptech S/C but still, its been done and even if 300 HP could be done NA, its nowhere near as exciting or impressive as a 500-600 whp turbo monster that will eat virtually everything on the road for breakfast.

allmotor_2000

I agree that the lightened flywheel won't mysteriously make the engine generate more hp... however, power to the wheels WILL be increased... same concept as the pulley's. Per UR (for example), 85% of the gains come from the lighter weight... rather than underdriving.

There should be a good 10%-15% weight reduction on the crank's rotational axis with the flywheel and crank pulley... that does translate to power either directly or indirectly.

I disagree that adding a S/C or Turbo is a no-brainer.... adding NOS is a no-brainer... but a S/C or Turbo requires some thought and aptitude.

Yes (Jim)... this setup will probably never make as much power as a basic turbo setup... and I am sure when an S4 or RS6 or M3/M5 beats me... I'll be rather 'moody'

fuzzy02CLS

iTrader: (2)

Is Comptechs clutch package out? Last I heard from them, it was in development. Not expected to be released till the summer, or later.

allmotor_2000

I don't think its going to be officially released until sometime later.

I am RobG

jim, what is your view of "fast". I have friends with 4 door integra's and civic hatches that are worked to the balls without nitrous or f/i. The 4 door integra runs mid 13's, the civic hatch runs low 12's street legally.

Doom878

I have to disagree on some of the past comments made.

1) Please go to www.importspeedsouth.com on the whole Honda all motor thing. There are some Civics that run 12's and 13's all motor and that's just in Miami. I must've read about a ton of various all motor Hondas in mags like Super Street and Sport Compact Car. Please don't make generalizing comments without facts.

2) It's not totally brainless to put nitrous oxide in the car. Maybe if you're running a 50 shot. But if you're installing a turbo kit with 4-5psi you don't have to do much anything else to it. Granted it is better to tune the air/fuel on the turbo as it is with nitrous. Now if you're running a more serious shot of nitrous or higher boost than you must tune it and properly prep it. Like turbo, nitrous isn't something to be taken lightly. Yeah it sounds easy since it's the best bang for your buck HP, but it could be dangerous if taken lightly. There's a guy in www.accordv6.com that ran a 13.5 with a direct port kit and dual shot of nitrous. I can guarantee that wasn't just putting on the kit. Basically no FI mod is a no-brainer, except for your wallet

As far as the post goes, although NA might not be the fastest method (yet) for the CL-S, I give AllMotor2000 credit for trying something tough as did type R. Who knows what additional discoveries he can make and potential groupbuys for parts. :P

Juker008

OK lets see if I've got my views right, plz everyone feel free to correct me, but plz add some detail and reasoning.



200 base

210 -> CAI
240 -> Headers
245 -> Exhaust (give or take)
255 -> P&P (I really think more like 8, but easier to add)
300 -> 3.5 stroke (correct me if I'm wrong but the 3.5 give 45hp
right)


Now that all should sound practical in theory, ideal conditions. But to factor in poor conditions, the bar could be set at 280.


280 poor conditions

290 UR Pullies
305 Cams
315 Thinner gasket 11:1


I can definatly see a 300 WHP CLS. Actually I have a feeling that AllMotor might even surpass the 300 that he set his goal at.

FK it make it a 350WHP goal. Go for it.

But u will be going with a 3.5 swap right?











Juker008

jimcol711

sure, there may SOME all-motor civics, tegs, etc that run 12s, but by an incredible degree, those are the exception, not the norm. also, i would be willing to speculate that those all motor civics or integras have undergone some SERIOUS weight reduction in order to produce 12 second runs on an all-motor vehicle. the CL-S is a heavy beast and unless the owner is willing to sacrafice the luxury interior, will remain a heavy beast. without a full gutting of the interior and replacement of such items as the hood, rims, battery, etc with light-weight parts, the CL-S will never be remotely close to the weight of a civic or integra. let alone a civic or integra that has gone through weight reduction modifications.

I am RobG

nobody said the CL-S was light. and you just said there isn't a fast civic integra, etc without nitrous or f/i. We were just proving that what you said was wrong.

kevin034

Ah ... allmotor going at it again.

Amazing. What's next? Turbine powered CL-S ... maybe?

jimcol711

thats fine, and youre correct. but aside from the minutely small and rare exception of an all-motor 12 second civic or integra, my point was that astroboy was dogging on anything F/I saying its easy or uninspired or not worthy of his praise or respect. thats where this started. ultimately, the point i was trying to make before i was proven wrong about my blanket statement about civics, was that its silly to dog on anything F/I when some of the most brilliant and respected cars ever have come stock with F/I components and F/I is a heavily embraced way to mod vehicles of all makes, shapes and sizes.

bottom line, i, along with many others who voted for a 500 whp CL-S as this guys next project, would be much more impressed with a CL-S thats putting down some MAJOR power and running with some of the baddest cars in the world.

a 300 whp CL-S, has been done before, so this project, however original in some of the approaches he plans to take, will not be as exciting to see unfold or impressive as if he had chosen to do a 500-600 whp turbo setup.

moomaster_99

I don't know what you're talking about, but in Cali....all motors are the new thing to show off your skills...ANYBODY CAN DUMP A TURBO, BUY A COMPUTER, AND PAY SOMEONE TO TUNE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !
Maybe because you live in Middle America, you don't see those 12 sec civics a lot, I see them all the time...LS-Vtecs with i/h/e cams...prelude swaps into civics with mild head work...13s....all in the 12s, not to mention some of the D15s running low . The fastest all motors are in the 10s....The WR civic coupe is in the 11s with wheelhop.

Everyone out here knows that FI is the fastest way to go, but all motor is about showing your skill at tuning and building.

mattg

hopefully allmotors all motor build up will lead to new performance mod possibilities for all of us

scalbert

Although I would have liked to see a 500 HP beast I can certainly understand and appreciate the decision.

Jim has obviously never tuned an engine otherwise he would not be making these comments. Take for instance the E46 M3 motor which is tuned to the max. It makes about 270 - 280 WHP even through a notoriously low parasitic drivetrain. Not to mention that BMW has a complete engineering staff on hand to make an engine put out this power reliably.

I'm sure allmotor planned on making this a reliable powerplant, not a track only vehicle or one which won't last 20k miles. As such it becomes more of a challenge. Hell, it would be much easier to make 400 WHP all motor for one pass than to make 300 WHP which lasts 50k.

Nashua_Night_Hawk

How about 10,000 rpm redline for the new Al motor CLS 3.2L engine with enough air flow to keep engine happy?

Now that is your extra 30% or 100 WHP!

astro

Jim, you are a true car enthusiast

you think I don't like F/I??

I guess that means the 600awhp Porsche 911TWIN TURBO that I own is just junk right...

Lets think for a second here Jim...
of all the boosted cars you posted, how many are FWD?? How many are strictly rwd? oh, that's right, they are all awd, except for the supra...gee, do you see something in common here that the CL-S lacks????

someone already said it, but if you put a 400hp FI car up against an equal weight 400hp NA car, the NA car will win, invariably, EVERY SINGLE TIME!!

it is FAR HARDER, more TEDIOUS and TIME CONSUMING to tune a NATURALLY ASPIRATED motor as opposed to a TURBO motor.
the fact that you keep saying the opposite really shows that you don't know shit, you just think you know because some hot cars you like have turbo's....lol

astro

QUOTED AGAIN, SO THAT MAYBE IT WILL SINK INTO JIMCOL'S HEAD NOW.....