autoxCLS

Ok - you guys are getting WAY to excited about this.

Car companies have faulty equipment. CD players fail, lawn mowers don't always start, and my goddamn garage door opener works 75% of the time. Guess what - unless you have causative damages, you can't sue unless you're gonna spend your own money on a lawyer. Lawyers only take cases free ( I believe I've said this before) if they think they can make serious bank on it. So unless you find some issue that is not hypothetical that has caused damage to an individual or the group, you ain't gonna do smack about filing a lawsuit.

Jrock,

So - you wanna sue to get them to fix the problem, right? IMO, unless you get hit by a truck and paralyzed (not wishing this on anyone, just a hypothetical), you have no loss to sue for. As stated before, they are fulfilling their contractual obligations by putting a new tranny in - there are no such constraints as time, etc except in a ....

LEMON LAW CASE

Again - I state this. Your proper legal remedy to this issue is to Lemon Law your vehicle. If you really want to stick it to them, arbitrate it, and get the results published by the state. If you settle with the mfgr, the results never get published. In FL, you can see the VIN and list of every car "bought back" due to Lemon Law. There is 1 2001 CLS/TLS.

People - you're dealing with a MAJOR corporation that will not listen to a handful of car enthusiasts. There have been no accidents caused by this malfunction to my knowledge. It's embarrasing to Honda/Acura to get their name on the bought back list tens of times, and that embarrasment will be one of the guiding concerns for a re-design. Until then, why shouldn't they just keep replacing trannies and quietly fix the problem on their time?

Again - I reiterate - LEMON LAW YOUR CAR IF YOU CAN!!!

QuickSilver

All,

I have to take issue with the argument that Acura is attempting to resolve this issue by replacing transmissions under warranty.

The fact of the matter is that many of the owners that have received "new" transmissions, by and large, appear to be suffering the same issue with the replacement.

Acura needs to recall these cars and make whatever modifications are necessary to insure that the transmission operates properly, at least for the duration of the warranty period, if not the life of the vehicle.

I am also not a fan of the "Lemon Law" argument. What exactly are we supposed to do at 60k if the transmission fails? The argument that we should purchase an extended warranty to compensate for Acura's negligence in moving a defect ridden transmission to production leaves much to be desired.

The bottom line is that Acura needs to be held accountable. At this point I would support a legal remedy of some kind. Would be interested to see a list of viable options. For example, could NHTSA be of assistance?

The problem with exposing Acura is that publicity cuts both ways. Acura might, conceivably, do the right thing and correct the issue with the 5 speed. On the other hand, Acura might well continue to minimize the problem while our resale values tank as a result of increased public awareness of the problems with the CL.


In the absence of a recall, I can guarantee one thing. Never again will I purchase or recommend an Acura vehicle.



QuickSilver
'01 CL-S (No Mods)

BarryH

Trust me, Acura is no happier about what's going on then we are. I saw a post somewhere that the reimbursement to the dealer for a transmission replacement costs Acura between $7,500 to $10K a pop. I'm sure having to do it twice on the same car eats away any profit Acura made from building and selling the car in the first place. If they knew what’s wrong, they would fix it for cars currently being produced and for replacement transmissions going into cars that have broken. The reason - they are a publicly held company and the bottom line is king. Since the CL is a low-volume car, statistically the warranty pay out per vehicle has to be going through the roof from all of these transmission replacements and I’m sure that doesn’t make the accountants or management very happy. All the threats of lawsuits and huffing and puffing that's taking place isn't going to result in Acura being more concerned faster. Ultimately, in a capitalistic society, what they have to pay out for transmission problems will make them act much faster than the communal cry of a small percentage of affected customers. Also, using worst-case numbers from the forums, there haven’t been more than 100 transmission replacements on the CL and TL and Acura has produced close to 200K since they were both introduced. While it may be a crisis to those that have had their transmissions fail, statistically is hasn’t been that bad (yet) when you look at the big picture. Also, from a cost effectiveness perspective, it is unlikely Acura will issue a full-scale recall once they identify the problem since it does affect a relatively small percentage of vehicles (unless someone is hurt or killed or likely to be injured directly because of the problem). They will most likely however issue a "secret" warranty extension through the dealer network that covers defective transmissions beyond the standard factory warranty.

acura_service

You Have no idea what you are taking about, i'm suprised you made it through life as far as you have

you want a recall. so everyone who has the vehicle has to have there car down in the shop to have the transmission replaced or rebuilt even if they never have a problem

The exteneded warranty covers much more than a transmission

Acura is being held accountable, its called a warranty - they do pay for repairs

They are not going to replace your automatic with a 5-speed

when you find a manuacture that has never had a transmission failure - let us all know

Good

acura_service

There is no such thing as a Secret Warranty, you might be referring about a special policy, but that would be in writing, also there could be dealership/Acura "goodwill" to help a customer that is out of warranty

i've talked to various mfg's reps over the years, i once heard when a recall or a special policy comes out, the Mfg does not take the whole hit, the supplier of the part in question usualy has to kick in and own up to there mistakes - i would think this is the way with acura as well as the domestics, - i'm sure there are many things outlined in contracts from suppliers

kensteele

Your last sentence makes no sense. If Acura issues a [safety] recall, you'll still buy from them. If they don't, you won't?

BarryH

By "secret", I meant not promoted publicly or announced formally to all affected car owners. Many manufacturers have extended/enhanced warranty programs that aren't publicized but are offered through the dealer based on the circumstances of the repair. I’m sure if Acura comes up with something someone on the board will find out from a dealer and post it to the forum so “secret” probably wasn’t the best choice of words.

blazerbob1

I think quicksilver hit the problem on the head. We need to do whatever it takes for a recall ASAP! Even though only a small percentage are having tranny problems I don't like sitting on pins and needles waiting and wondering if all of a sudden my tranny oil turns black and the clutches all fry due to some inherent internal design flaw! What can we seriously do about this!
Come on people lets have some feedback!

mrdeeno

you're statement is severely flawed. YOU don't like waiting on pins and needles waiting and wondering if all of a sudden YOUR tranny goes out.

1) YOU don't have a problem yet, you're just worried. Should we take action because you're worried?

2) why should YOUR worries inconvenience thousands of people without any problems.

3) do you even know what a recall would do and how can that guarantee your tranny won't go out? if they issue a recall, take your car in for a day, take it for a drive, and return it saying it's ok, you won't be worried anymore, NOT knowing what they did except "check" the tranny, even when it's no more than just driving it?

4) they HAVE done soemthing about it and it's been mentioned many times before, but some people just can't understand it. THEY GAVE YOU A WARRANTY WHEN YOU BOUGHT THE CAR! no one can forsee problems, whether it's widespread or not, that's why they gave you a warranty.

so if you don't have a probelm but are worried, then go to acura and have them check it. why would you need a recall to do that, especially when you don't know what they'd do in case of a recall anyway?

CO-CL-S

Now this is really scary, I agree with the last two acura_service entries. I know one thing for sure, I'm not buying a lottory ticket today!

acura_service

There is still no such thing, when a special policy comes out extended the warranty on a particular part or system on the car, you will be notified, its not a recall, it just states if you have problem a with your car we will cover it for x months and x miles,

this happened with honda and emissions parts - i think it was an igniter plugs and wires - people received letters about the issue

blazerbob1

mrdeeno, maybe you haven't read very specific threads on the board regarding people's trans problems! From what threads I've read I just am beginning to think that there may be a design flaw when guys are taking cars in for trans replacement and it burns up again in short order and local Acura dealer doesn't even look inside to find whats wrong. That would be like if you had a bad heart and instead of finding out whats wrong you just replace it! Its just that it has gotten to a certain point and the strange way Acura is dealing with it that I don't like! I wouldn't ever suggest a recall just because "I'm worried" At this point I think there is some cause for concern and will not bury my head in the sand. I just want some answers from Acura and they owe that to us or even though I love my car I will not purchase from company that treats problems in this manner! I don't want to start a flame here, you are entitled to your opionions but don't tell me my statement is severely flawed or I would have to say you don't know what you're talking about! Bye!

QuickSilver

All vehicles have problems. In terms of quality, what tends to differentiate one manufacturer from another is the method by which a given manufacturer handles any serious issues that arise with a given product.

In the case of the CL, transmissions are failing on vehicles that are less than 1 year old. Instead of communicating the root cause for the failure and correcting the defect, Acura appears content to advise the use of the "Lemon Law" or to provide another faulty rebuilt transmission as a replacement for the original.

I would like to know exactly what is wrong with the transmission and I would like steps taken to insure that the transmission functions for a reasonable time frame. My expectation as a customer is that Acura stand behind its product. If Acura had gone this route, providing full disclosure and a corrective fix, I would feel comfortable recommending Acura vehicles to potential buyers.

Instead of being forthright with customers, Acura is sweeping the problem with the CL-S transmission under the rug. I have better things to do with my time than worry about undisclosed defects in a vehicle. I cannot, in good conscience, recommend a vehicle produced by a manufacturer that reacts to what appears to be a design issue by burying its head in the sand. The handling of the transmission issue raises questions about whether or not owners will be made aware of other serious issues down the road.

If I am not mistaken, in previous messages in this thread comparisons have been made between the CL transmission issue and the Chrysler UltraDrive. I believe the comparison is apt. Wouldn't recommend a Chrysler to anyone, either.



QuickSilver
'01 CL-S (No Mods)

QuickSilver

That's not exactly what I had in mind. What I had hoped is that one or more redesigned components could be replaced as a preventative measure.

Are you in essence saying that the problem is severe enough that the transmission requires replacement in all cases?

Why should I pay for an extended warranty to deal with Acura's decision to move a faulty transmission to production? Seems to me that you are suggesting I subsidize negligence, incompetence, or both. I prefer a different scenario in which Acura recognizes its mistake, fully discloses the root cause for the problem and corrects the error.

Your statement is true only if the transmission completely fails within the warranty period. If I see this problem at 50,001 miles or 4 years + 1 day, I will be out of luck.

Instead of waiting for the transmission to fail, have you ever considered making whatever corrections are necessary to insure that the failure does not occur in the first place? Again, aren't you implicitly stating that this problem is more severe than a simple part change out?

Ever hear the expression "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure?"

Don't believe I ever asked for a manual transmission. I actually prefer an automatic for my daily commute.


Other manufacturers have similar problems on occasion. What's interesting is that some of the lowliest nameplates on the market have exercised greater disclosure and more concern for the customer than Acura has provided in this matter.


QuickSilver
'01 CL-S (No Mods)

mrdeeno

that's where you're wrong...again. i have read the threads and people's 2nd tranny failures. how many were there? uh, 2? and the 1 was 'cuz the plug wasn't installed tightly?

if it was a design flaw, why doesn't EVERYONE with a cl-s or tl-s have bad trannies that die within a year?

why are there LESS people with tranny problems than there are people WITHOUT tranny problems?

a design flaw is like the sunroof wind visor that vibrates at certain speeds with the windows up...EVERYONE had it before it was fixed, because it was designed wrong.

if the tranny has a design flaw causing the trannies to fail, then EVERYONE would have failed trannies, not 5% or even 10% of owners.

and i'm trying to figure out what "manner" you are being treated? you don't have a problem yet, so why should they do anything for you? have you confronted them about it? have you copmlained that you are worried? like i said before, if you are really worried, then take your car in and have it checked, i'm sure they'd do it for free if you told them the tranny was acting wierd just to get it checked.

and why should they worry about the car after the warranty runs out? that's why the warranty ends. tell me a copmany that designs every component of every car it makes to last forever. NONE! that's why warranties have an ending period. for those with failed trannies that get htem replaced, if Acura gives them an extended warranty, that's for their convenience and peace of mind on their 2nd tranny.

QuickSilver

Could just as easily have been a variance in the manufacturing line. Joe Sixpack may have had one too many the night before. Might also have been a materials issue with a supplier. Only Acura knows the right answer.

The relevant point here is that no one outside Acura knows the real answer because Acura has been less than forthcoming regarding what is causing the problem.


Have you done a professional survey to substantiate this point?Based on what kind of sample? Surely you aren't limiting the count of folks with problems to individuals that have chosen to disclose transmission problems with vehicles they currently own in a public forum.....

I have not had this problem.

You are making a huge assumption that future failures will not occur. There are a number of variables that could very well affect the longevity of the transmission that need to be considered. Could there be some relationship with certain mods? Could the aggressiveness of the driver be a factor? What about environmental factors?

Again, instead of living with uncertainty, why not demand that Acura explain why the transmissions that have been replaced to date have failed?


QuickSilver
'01 CL-S (No Mods)

kensteele

So you want full disclosure of the nature of the problem and total admission from Acura that there is a design flaw in their tranny? Hehehe....

Guess what? It ain't coming. What else you want? A tour of the factory (inspection) and a background check of the designers and the engineers? How about questioning the factory-line workers to see if there is any negligence?

You are not owed this....just a new tranny....nothing more. And when you ask for one, you get one. What else do you friggin' want!?

And for those of you who are worried that you brand new, completely functioning tranny is going to fall out on the freeway tomorrow, stop reading this board (sorry Soopa) and I guarantee you your worries will go away in about a month.

You're falling for the Internet bug...and falling hard, too. You're falling for other people's stories about their problems and issues. You're hearing tales and rumors from across the country and you are hanging your hat on it as though it were all true...the feeling and the intensity and the whole entire situation, just as they said it on the Internet. I'm not going to discount anyone's story but if I got on here tomorrow and said my tranny finally failed and that I was ok with it, what would you think then?

If you haven't had tranny problems, you have no right to complain about anything. If you think the tranny is going to fail while you are on vacation 2,000 miles away from home, then I wouldn't take the CL on vacation. Sorry, but that's life. Only those that have had problems need to take action and I support them fully in whatever they do; even if they go to court. Those who have no problems and cry out, I have to honestly believe you want something for nothing, you want more than you paid for (like an extension of the warranty), or you just want a new tranny, or something; maybe a new car, another car.

And I'll back up what I say. When you purchased your car, Acura told you that we will replace your tranny before 50,000 if we discover a defect in our manufacturing and/or workmanship. And you agreed. You didn't say, "well what if all of my friends start having problems but not me....". You didn't say, "what if I'm worried about the tranny next month, what do I do?" You were told that if you don't trust the manufacturer's quality and you believe that their parts might fail you after 50,000 then you have the option of taking out more coverage. You declined and you said that you trust Acura and you will let them fix whatever is wrong before 50,000 and after 50,000 you don't need anymore coverage; you are willing to pay for whatever repairs the car needs. You didn't say "I'm only going to pay for the repairs (after 50,000) that are my fault and you still gotta pay for the one's that are your fault." You said you would take your chances. And you paid for the car and went home.

Now you come back (after talking to your friends) and you want extra service and extra attention. But you feel you are not getting it completely. You get another tranny but you want more. Like an admission or an apology or come comfort that it won't happen again. You second tranny fails. Now what? You are mad and you want to take action above and beyond the Lemon Law or the standard warranty.

The only way you can justify this is by two ways. You have to make up the story that Acura knew this was a problem when they sold you the car and they failed to disclose this to you. Plus you have to make up the story that Acura knows that there is a problem today in their design and that they are not accomodating you. Those are two made up stories with no proof whatsoever. So when Acura says NO for something, of course you feel bad. When the tranny fails again, of course you get mad. But let's get some facts. If you try to hang your hat on those made up stories, that's why you are getting nowhere. Nowhere with Acura, and no where with half the people on this board. And you will get no where in court. Jurors are not going to support those made up stories. I suppose you want Acura to give you the fact so that you can use them against them in court. Let's get some real facts, and then this board can come together and really make an impact. In the meantime.... so many people have turned their opinions and speculations into fact and then have built a case around it, it makes it difficult to see the truth. QuickSilver is one of them. There are so many I don't know where to begin but I won't weight into them. I'll just point out one:

QuickSilver said: "Why should I pay for an extended warranty to deal with Acura's decision to move a faulty transmission to production? Seems to me that you are suggesting I subsidize negligence, incompetence, or both. I prefer a different scenario in which Acura recognizes its mistake, fully discloses the root cause for the problem and corrects the error."

He honestly believes that Acura make a conscience decision to move a faulty transmission to the production line and sell it to customer knowing that it was bound to fail. Of course you and I know that ALL manufacturers build and sell products that have a certain failure rate (the yield is never perfect) and as such they offer warranties to the customer that is directly designed to cover those parts that leave the factory that succumb to that yield. If Acura waited until they have 100% yield, there would be no CLs. But folks, the truth of the matter is the QuickSilver doesn't know this. He is only guessing about Acura's intentions. He doesn't know the failure rate. He doesn't know the yield. He doesn't know who or how they decided to release the tranny. And he wasn't there when the decisions were made. He's looking at the process from the outside and he is guessing. So once he turns his made up fiction into fact, he labels the extended warranty as "subsidizing negligence". That what's the extended warranty is in his opinion. It is only a tool by which manufacturers use to collect more money from customers to continue to guarantee not only their incompetence, but he goes so far as to say "negligence". The definition of negligence is "Failure to exercise the degree of care considered reasonable under the circumstances, resulting in an unintended injury to another party." Whatever!

An extended warranty is to extended the terms of the OEM warranty to some longer period. One would consider purchasing an extended warranty if they feel the costs outweigh the risks; that's it. What is the risk? The risk is that the part(s) covered by the warranty will fail prior/after to period as stated in the warranty. When you buy an extended warranty, you are saying that you feel the part(s) will fail and you wish the manufacturer to continue to support you. When you decline the extended warranty and accept the manufacturer's warranty, you are saying that you feel that if the part(s) fail after the OEM warrany, you no longer will look for support from the manufacturer and that the risk is acceptable. Only under special circumstances is this the exception. Special circumstates arise on a case by case basis and is at the discretion of the law and the manufacturer, i.e. Acura can pay for whatever outside the warranty and the law can order Acura to pay for whatever outside the warranty. Anything beyond that is malarky.

Scorpius

Liosten very carefully... there will be no recal based on at most 100 people on a website. You need solid evidence there is a problem with the trannies... For every person on here there's about ten that has no trouble.
Lawsuit won't get anywhere. How many of you ever owned a Chrysler of GM product? They have more problems than the Acuras will ever have, yet there was no lawsuit.
Those of you that had problems, I feel for you. I really do. I know what its like not having your car, or having it blow up on you at the worst time. That's life. Sometimes in life you will take it up the ass. GM owners take it up the ass all the time - they don't know any better.
To those of you will never buy Acura again, fine... Get a Chrysler. Seriously... get one. See how you like that. The Chrysler 300M will give the TL-S a run for its money (if it starts). it had a bigger engine... smaller turning radius... Go ahead, Make my day (and Lee Iococca's).

mrdeeno

do you read posts and understand them?

correct me if i'm wrong, but in my statement i included "...before it was fixed..."

maybe you got the car after they addressed it (ie. after it was fixed).

kensteele

That's what I'm saying. I'm here to help. Let's forget the recall, lawsuit nonsense and band together to help find out what this problem is. Even though I (and many others) have not had a problem, we can help by helping understand what we did or did not do. I have over 45,000 miles so there's gotta be something positive I can contribute. But I'm not gonna contribute to a class action lawsuit because I wouldn't take a new tranny today if they offered it to me for free. I like my own.

So if your tranny falls out and it costs you a lot of time and money, get a lawyer and then come here for support regarding your inconveniences and expenses and your anger. We will be glad to support you. That's what this board is for. Ideas. Suggestions. Advice. But if you haven't had narry a problem and you still want something...forget it.

Oh, just my opinion.

QuickSilver

What I am owed is a functioning transmission. Replacing the original transmission with another POS is not acceptable.

I would also challenge the premise that "when you ask for one, you get one." Most of the folks that have gone through the replacement process appear to have had failures before the dealers actually decided to take action. I find it VERY hard to believe that the failure could not have been prevented through inspection or part replacement.

As to what I "friggin' want," how about a transmission that actually works? Would it really kill Acura to tell us why transmissions have been failing in less than 1 year? Certainly does not seem to have bankrupted most other major auto manufacturers that issue TSBs and recall notices for significantly less important failures.

Your "guarantee" doesn't inspire a great deal of confidence.

How about an explanation for the failures?

I have had tranny problems, so I guess I have a "right" to complain based on the book of Steele. Do you imagine yourself to be some kind of legal or technical authority on these matters?

Don't believe I'm asking for 100% yield. In fact, I believe I indicated that all manufacturers have quality problems. The CL, in particular, has had more problems than most based on the last set of JD Power results I reviewed.

What I am asking for is an explanation for the transmission failures and a fix that actually works.

Which is the case for everyone on this board that does not work for American Honda.

In this paragraph, you start from a faulty premise and proceed, seemingly logically, to a faulty conclusion. I'll stand by my original post as originally phrased before parsed into the nonsense above.

The only "made up fiction" I see here is best reflected in your snippet above. I have never seen anyone more motivated to bend over for a car manufacturer. Do you work for Acura or do you just enjoy the ass ramming we've all been getting on this vehicle?

Hence the desire to better understand available legal options.





QuickSilver
'01 CL-S (No Mods)

acura_service

Acura is Paying for the Claim, - Thats what they want done, when its your money - tell them to look inside of it

acura_service

You Have a Warranty, not a Guarantee!

and answer this in the next post, have you had a transmission replaced yet?

acura_service

let me ask you this, District Service Managers have the right to authorize out of warranty claims, so does the dealer (there are i'm sure time and milage constraints) so let me ask you this, since these people are looking for repeat customers and generally try to make customers happy, IF YOU WERE THE REP, WOULD YOU DENY WARRANTY TO SOMEONE JUST BARELY OUT OF WARRANTY?

i didn't think so, i can't image any dealer much less any mfg that would do it - and i work with 13 of them

avengerjr

I can't take it anymore...this is not going to be a bitching/yelling contest.

Fact is, there is no lawsuit right now, there probably won't be and not everyone's tranny is going to fail. A lot of people are just getting worried for no reason.

Open a new thread when something interesting happens on this subject...kapeesh!