Jet ECU upgrade
08-01-2001, 11:46 PM
#41
Suzuka Master
Originally posted by silverESS:
<STRONG>
anyone know a way to get the stickers off and put them back on so they won't know??? c'mon you slick bastards!
if you CAN actually tell whether or not something has been resoldered, then it should be worth a shot. if the thing isn't really different and cannot really be 'reprogrammed'-you win...and are a hero!
maybe take it to a acura dealer mech that would know whether or not it has been altered, also providing you with a credible witness if you need it.
if it does look like something was changed, then it's just up to you to be honest about the sticker if you run into 'warranty' problems later--of course, if it breaks under warranty, where's the guilt??
if this sounds like a stupid idea, can someone else expound on it? i'm just 'rambling' here.
my 2¢</STRONG>
<STRONG>
anyone know a way to get the stickers off and put them back on so they won't know??? c'mon you slick bastards!
if you CAN actually tell whether or not something has been resoldered, then it should be worth a shot. if the thing isn't really different and cannot really be 'reprogrammed'-you win...and are a hero!
maybe take it to a acura dealer mech that would know whether or not it has been altered, also providing you with a credible witness if you need it.
if it does look like something was changed, then it's just up to you to be honest about the sticker if you run into 'warranty' problems later--of course, if it breaks under warranty, where's the guilt??
if this sounds like a stupid idea, can someone else expound on it? i'm just 'rambling' here.
my 2¢</STRONG>
To setup the box would NOT be a problem -- it would be very easy to "mark" the solder of a flat pack lead (I'm not giving away some secrets, but that is the easy part).
The hard part is dumping the money on the "sticker" part of the experiment. If they are anything like most of the software seals of late, they could possibly be teased-off. Unfortunately, there are some crafty folks who make some rather good tamper proof seals -- this is the $1,000,000.00 question -- are the seals just cheapo tape, or are they the tamper proof variety...
Just a thought from inquiring minds...
Your comment about the “Acura” mechanic story might work. When they are working on a car, the owner has consented to their “exploration” of the vehicle. So, if the only issue is getting a stock box back (if this is some kind of funny business) then just saying, “The Acura people ripped open the box – do’h..” just might work
Who knows…
My 1¢
08-02-2001, 03:41 AM
#42
Oh...Behave!
Ok, I looked at the seal-stickers to refresh my memory. They are about the size of two rectangular postage stamps, end to end.
They have the Jet color logo on them (yellow w/ red). And a "typed" registration number. They are covering over the PCM box lid seam on two oposite sides. They seem to be made of a medium gauge vinyl 'type' material - you know like those different peel-back adhesive stickers!
I'm wondering if I could use a blow dryer on low to warm it up enough to peel it back without distorting the printing and numbers?!!!
Whatta ya think?
They have the Jet color logo on them (yellow w/ red). And a "typed" registration number. They are covering over the PCM box lid seam on two oposite sides. They seem to be made of a medium gauge vinyl 'type' material - you know like those different peel-back adhesive stickers!
I'm wondering if I could use a blow dryer on low to warm it up enough to peel it back without distorting the printing and numbers?!!!
Whatta ya think?
08-02-2001, 03:55 AM
#43
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I can tell you with absolute assurance that the control unit can't be reprogrammed without replacing the chip or running a piggyback. Even the piggyback has proven ineffective in most cases, as EricL stated, the ECU has the ability to learn and adapt.
EricL - The chip is manufactured by Nokia. Researching the factory program will prove to be a very slippery slope
EricL - The chip is manufactured by Nokia. Researching the factory program will prove to be a very slippery slope
08-02-2001, 02:47 PM
#45
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Sounds like Jet might have developed a placebo chip... You just think you have better performance because you paid them some money and they said so. Those stickers on YOUR pcm box is a bunch of BS if you ask me... that would be like if an import shop said they hooked up your engine and then put a sticker on the hood that said "warranty void if removed" Its your damn car isn't it? Unless the entire PCM box is replaced by a completely Jet created unit, you can open that thing up. I'd double check with a lawyer first, but you OWN that PCM box and I don't see how Jet can claim any warranty is voided.
I took a freshman level electrical enginering course and I learned enough to know, that there are chips which can be reprogrammed and chips that can't. If its a fact that the ECU is non reprogramable chip, then Jet would HAVE to replace it with their own chip. Now where the hell is Jet getting their chips from if they are replacing the stock Honda chip? Is the Jet chip a new and improved version which can be reprogrammed?
Is it true that the ECU maintains tables which it adjusts over time as you drive the car? Maybe the Jet people send certain input signals to the ECU which cause these tables to be altered, but is the altercation permanent or just temporary?
Whatever the explaination is, it definitely seems like there is some "black magic" going on over at Jet.
I took a freshman level electrical enginering course and I learned enough to know, that there are chips which can be reprogrammed and chips that can't. If its a fact that the ECU is non reprogramable chip, then Jet would HAVE to replace it with their own chip. Now where the hell is Jet getting their chips from if they are replacing the stock Honda chip? Is the Jet chip a new and improved version which can be reprogrammed?
Is it true that the ECU maintains tables which it adjusts over time as you drive the car? Maybe the Jet people send certain input signals to the ECU which cause these tables to be altered, but is the altercation permanent or just temporary?
Whatever the explaination is, it definitely seems like there is some "black magic" going on over at Jet.
08-02-2001, 03:27 PM
#46
Senior Moderator
when you walk into a restraunt and by the door is a coat and hat rack...and above the rack is a sign that says no resposible for lost or stolen articles of clothing...the sign is a lie...by providing a coat/hat rack the operator must provide resonable care of your goods...however the law doesnt state that they have to tell you that they must provide resonable care and furthure more doesnt prevent them from lieing to you...it's up to you to know/find out your rights...Now that said i would say that this issue may fall under the magnussen/moss act ...jet would have to prove that your opening the box caused than failure in question...but furthur more...what warranty have you had to go back for some tuning?is it gonna wear out?whats done is done open it up and see .
08-02-2001, 03:30 PM
#47
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Originally posted by typeR:
<STRONG>when you walk into a restraunt and by the door is a coat and hat rack...and above the rack is a sign that says no resposible for lost or stolen articles of clothing...the sign is a lie...by providing a coat/hat rack the operator must provide resonable care of your goods...however the law doesnt state that they have to tell you that they must provide resonable care and furthure more doesnt prevent them from lieing to you...it's up to you to know/find out your rights...Now that said i would say that this issue may fall under the magnussen/moss act ...jet would have to prove that your opening the box caused than failure in question...but furthur more...what warranty have you had to go back for some tuning?is it gonna wear out?whats done is done open it up and see .</STRONG>
<STRONG>when you walk into a restraunt and by the door is a coat and hat rack...and above the rack is a sign that says no resposible for lost or stolen articles of clothing...the sign is a lie...by providing a coat/hat rack the operator must provide resonable care of your goods...however the law doesnt state that they have to tell you that they must provide resonable care and furthure more doesnt prevent them from lieing to you...it's up to you to know/find out your rights...Now that said i would say that this issue may fall under the magnussen/moss act ...jet would have to prove that your opening the box caused than failure in question...but furthur more...what warranty have you had to go back for some tuning?is it gonna wear out?whats done is done open it up and see .</STRONG>
08-02-2001, 03:31 PM
#48
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You do know that a lot some chip tuners seal the ECUs and send them back with the sticker as a disclaimer. Some of them do wire something to fry the whole board should you open the ECU to protect proprietary tuning.
08-02-2001, 03:41 PM
#49
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Originally posted by moomaster_99:
<STRONG>You do know that a lot some chip tuners seal the ECUs and send them back with the sticker as a disclaimer. Some of them do wire something to fry the whole board should you open the ECU to protect proprietary tuning.</STRONG>
<STRONG>You do know that a lot some chip tuners seal the ECUs and send them back with the sticker as a disclaimer. Some of them do wire something to fry the whole board should you open the ECU to protect proprietary tuning.</STRONG>
But how do they open it again if they need to do some additional tuning?
08-02-2001, 03:43 PM
#50
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Originally posted by SidVicious:
<STRONG>
If this is possible and IS the case, then this is a good way for Jet to cover their own ass. This way, you could never tell whether or not they actually did something to the chip. If they didn't, it destroys the evidence when the box is opened and they don't have a fraud case to worry about.
But how do they open it again if they need to do some additional tuning?</STRONG>
<STRONG>
If this is possible and IS the case, then this is a good way for Jet to cover their own ass. This way, you could never tell whether or not they actually did something to the chip. If they didn't, it destroys the evidence when the box is opened and they don't have a fraud case to worry about.
But how do they open it again if they need to do some additional tuning?</STRONG>
08-02-2001, 11:18 PM
#52
Suzuka Master
Fact:
I did not get a fax (of a dyno) sent to me today...
What does this mean -- who knows.... Just a promise that WAS NOT kept...
Comments:
I could keep guessing for a year, and never figure out what is going on...
I still am a bit perplexed over the lack of a dyno sheet for the work done; this is standard industry practice.
I did not get a fax (of a dyno) sent to me today...
What does this mean -- who knows.... Just a promise that WAS NOT kept...
Comments:
I could keep guessing for a year, and never figure out what is going on...
I still am a bit perplexed over the lack of a dyno sheet for the work done; this is standard industry practice.
08-02-2001, 11:40 PM
#53
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Originally posted by EricL:
<STRONG>Fact:
I did not get a fax (of a dyno) sent to me today...
What does this mean -- who knows.... Just a promise that WAS NOT kept...
Comments:
I could keep guessing for a year, and never figure out what is going on...
I still am a bit perplexed over the lack of a dyno sheet for the work done; this is standard industry practice.</STRONG>
<STRONG>Fact:
I did not get a fax (of a dyno) sent to me today...
What does this mean -- who knows.... Just a promise that WAS NOT kept...
Comments:
I could keep guessing for a year, and never figure out what is going on...
I still am a bit perplexed over the lack of a dyno sheet for the work done; this is standard industry practice.</STRONG>
08-02-2001, 11:44 PM
#54
Suzuka Master
Originally posted by SidVicious:
<STRONG>
What is the number for Jet? I'll call them and tell them that until I see a dyno sheet for a CL-S that they won't see my money. I think if enough people call them, they will try to produce something.</STRONG>
<STRONG>
What is the number for Jet? I'll call them and tell them that until I see a dyno sheet for a CL-S that they won't see my money. I think if enough people call them, they will try to produce something.</STRONG>
You are probably right -- there is force in numbers...
www.jetchip.com
JET Performance Products
17491 Apex Circle
Huntington Beach, CA 92647
Voice: 714-848-5515
Fax: 714-847-6290
Email: Sales@JetChip.com
08-03-2001, 12:38 AM
#55
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Words of Wisdom ! With #'s to Back it UP !
Listen up
Listen up
Originally posted by BLOWN 331:
<STRONG>Our ECU's in our cars have two chips: one for the transmission and the other for engine performance. Neither of these chips can be altered period. Once a chip is burned, it can not be reprogrammed. A new chip (which are unattainable at this time)must be burned with a hi-po program to increase power at all. Honda has gone through many lengths so that the chip could not be tampered with. If anyone can do it...it will be G-Force or Hondata. They have done many chips for differents cars with Dyno Sheets to prove performance. Don't belive me call them. Speak with Tadashi at G-Force 1-310-782-8278. Their in Torrance, California.
Don't waste your money on the Jet Chip, rather buy sway bars and springs and enjoy the limits of your car on the road.
BLOWN 331
[ 07-31-2001: Message edited by: BLOWN 331 ]</STRONG>
<STRONG>Our ECU's in our cars have two chips: one for the transmission and the other for engine performance. Neither of these chips can be altered period. Once a chip is burned, it can not be reprogrammed. A new chip (which are unattainable at this time)must be burned with a hi-po program to increase power at all. Honda has gone through many lengths so that the chip could not be tampered with. If anyone can do it...it will be G-Force or Hondata. They have done many chips for differents cars with Dyno Sheets to prove performance. Don't belive me call them. Speak with Tadashi at G-Force 1-310-782-8278. Their in Torrance, California.
Don't waste your money on the Jet Chip, rather buy sway bars and springs and enjoy the limits of your car on the road.
BLOWN 331
[ 07-31-2001: Message edited by: BLOWN 331 ]</STRONG>
08-03-2001, 01:16 AM
#56
Oh...Behave!
Hey Guys, there is some info that I forgot to tell you that may have effected the "10 min" programming. ...It didn't register until I started reading all the replies from the computer wizards, about the time it takes to program!
Further clarification regarding 10 min programming: This was AFTER I had initially received the box, put it in, and noticed NO difference in performance. THEN, I went back after speaking to the Mgr. (I think Mike-that's sounds familiar) THEN, I took it out in the parking lot, they took it upstairs, and returned with it in about 10 - 15 mins! ...Sorry, about the oversight...didn't know that might make a difference!
BTW: SHOULD I OPEN THE BOX TO SEE IF THERE IS ANY EVIDENCE OF RESOLDERING????
Further clarification regarding 10 min programming: This was AFTER I had initially received the box, put it in, and noticed NO difference in performance. THEN, I went back after speaking to the Mgr. (I think Mike-that's sounds familiar) THEN, I took it out in the parking lot, they took it upstairs, and returned with it in about 10 - 15 mins! ...Sorry, about the oversight...didn't know that might make a difference!
BTW: SHOULD I OPEN THE BOX TO SEE IF THERE IS ANY EVIDENCE OF RESOLDERING????
08-03-2001, 01:22 AM
#57
Oh...Behave!
Originally posted by Mike:
<STRONG>Ron, why not go back to Jet and ask them to open the unit and prove to you that your $$ was well spent.</STRONG>
<STRONG>Ron, why not go back to Jet and ask them to open the unit and prove to you that your $$ was well spent.</STRONG>
But, the weird thing is, it REALLY DID make the car "pull" harder and faster after that "10 min" adjustment! And, it didn't go away...as someone suggested that it may have relearned the settings regarding some piggyback program???
08-03-2001, 07:09 AM
#58
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Originally posted by Ogolden1:
<STRONG>
BELIEVE ME I'M THINKING VERY SERIOUSLY ABOUT IT!!!
But, the weird thing is, it REALLY DID make the car "pull" harder and faster after that "10 min" adjustment! And, it didn't go away...as someone suggested that it may have relearned the settings regarding some piggyback program???</STRONG>
<STRONG>
BELIEVE ME I'M THINKING VERY SERIOUSLY ABOUT IT!!!
But, the weird thing is, it REALLY DID make the car "pull" harder and faster after that "10 min" adjustment! And, it didn't go away...as someone suggested that it may have relearned the settings regarding some piggyback program???
</STRONG>
Ogolden1,
That's a mighty nice gesture of you to consider opening your ECU box to satisfy both your and our curiosities
; however, in the end, if you truly think it made a difference in your car's performance, then that's all that matters isn't it?
08-03-2001, 12:00 PM
#59
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Why dont you just dyno your car?
Originally posted by Ogolden1:
<STRONG>
BELIEVE ME I'M THINKING VERY SERIOUSLY ABOUT IT!!!
But, the weird thing is, it REALLY DID make the car "pull" harder and faster after that "10 min" adjustment! And, it didn't go away...as someone suggested that it may have relearned the settings regarding some piggyback program???</STRONG>
<STRONG>
BELIEVE ME I'M THINKING VERY SERIOUSLY ABOUT IT!!!
But, the weird thing is, it REALLY DID make the car "pull" harder and faster after that "10 min" adjustment! And, it didn't go away...as someone suggested that it may have relearned the settings regarding some piggyback program???
</STRONG>
08-03-2001, 04:13 PM
#61
Oh...Behave!
You know, I called TWO dyno shops before I put the headers on, because I wanted to get a baseline BEFORE the headers! (I had a $100 bet with a guy that they increased peak HP by 24HP at the wheels) Anyway, I wasn't able to get into the one that answered the phone, and I left a message @ the other one, but they never got back with me! SO, after I get the Super Dragers installed (hopefully this weekend) I will set up an appt. and get the car dynoed to see where it is compared to others w/ CAI & headers!
08-03-2001, 04:16 PM
#62
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Originally posted by Ogolden1:
<STRONG>You know, I called TWO dyno shops before I put the headers on, because I wanted to get a baseline BEFORE the headers! (I had a $100 bet with a guy that they increased peak HP by 24HP at the wheels) Anyway, I wasn't able to get into the one that answered the phone, and I left a message @ the other one, but they never got back with me! SO, after I get the Super Dragers installed (hopefully this weekend) I will set up an appt. and get the car dynoed to see where it is compared to others w/ CAI & headers!</STRONG>
<STRONG>You know, I called TWO dyno shops before I put the headers on, because I wanted to get a baseline BEFORE the headers! (I had a $100 bet with a guy that they increased peak HP by 24HP at the wheels) Anyway, I wasn't able to get into the one that answered the phone, and I left a message @ the other one, but they never got back with me! SO, after I get the Super Dragers installed (hopefully this weekend) I will set up an appt. and get the car dynoed to see where it is compared to others w/ CAI & headers!</STRONG>
I think it's better to take it to them...
08-03-2001, 04:33 PM
#63
Oh...Behave!
Originally posted by moomaster_99:
<STRONG>
I hope to GOD that they didn't install that security software that I was talking about that'll send a burst throught the ECU....burning everything...
I think it's better to take it to them...</STRONG>
<STRONG>
I hope to GOD that they didn't install that security software that I was talking about that'll send a burst throught the ECU....burning everything...
I think it's better to take it to them...</STRONG>
Regarding security software: Wouldn't they have to hookup some sorta triggering device to the lid, so that it's like a boobie trap, or something???
08-03-2001, 04:34 PM
#64
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Originally posted by Ogolden1:
<STRONG>
There are just 4 screws [one in each corner]that tighten the box cover "lid" to the box itself. I opened it before I sent it to them initially, to see what it looked like inside. - It just looked like an electronic schematic board with chips, capasitors(sp), resistors, etc...
Regarding security software: Wouldn't they have to hookup some sorta triggering device to the lid, so that it's like a boobie trap, or something???</STRONG>
<STRONG>
There are just 4 screws [one in each corner]that tighten the box cover "lid" to the box itself. I opened it before I sent it to them initially, to see what it looked like inside. - It just looked like an electronic schematic board with chips, capasitors(sp), resistors, etc...
Regarding security software: Wouldn't they have to hookup some sorta triggering device to the lid, so that it's like a boobie trap, or something???</STRONG>
08-03-2001, 11:22 PM
#66
Suzuka Master
Originally posted by Ogolden1:
<STRONG>So, has anyone received any more info from JET???</STRONG>
<STRONG>So, has anyone received any more info from JET???</STRONG>
I did call G-Force @ 1-310-782-8278 and asked them to verify the non-volatile nature of the chips memory. They insist that they can't do anything until they get the chip.
I've done some really nasty tricks with existing embedded systems in my time, but without the data/programming sheets on the chip, this is just a bunch of guess work...
08-09-2001, 10:26 PM
#68
Suzuka Master
Originally posted by Nate:
<STRONG>I have $50 that says JET is BS. Crack that shat open!
Any other takers?</STRONG>
<STRONG>I have $50 that says JET is BS. Crack that shat open!
Any other takers?</STRONG>
1. Use the same dyno operator and dyno shop for all tests.
2. Get 2-3 baseline dynos.
3. Get the mod from the "boys" over at Jet...
4. Have a dyno done right after the "mod"
5. Drive the car like crazy (slow, medium, and fast) all over the place for a week, and return for a 2nd dyno -- make sure at least 300 miles or more have been put on the car.
-- NO MORE GUESSING --
If it doesn't work; be a hero; call the local paper and the FTC. (Maybe you can get a finders fee for any wrongdoing.)
08-09-2001, 10:41 PM
#69
Oh...Behave!
Another way of doing it would be to just "swap" PCM's with someone! Run dyno with a stock PCM, then put the Jet one in - it could be done in one visit!
Oh, actually, I could also just compare my dyno with others that have headers and a CAI!
[ 08-09-2001: Message edited by: Ogolden1 ]
Oh, actually, I could also just compare my dyno with others that have headers and a CAI!
[ 08-09-2001: Message edited by: Ogolden1 ]
08-09-2001, 10:59 PM
#70
Suzuka Master
Originally posted by Ogolden1:
<STRONG>Another way of doing it would be to just "swap" PCM's with someone! Run dyno with a stock PCM, then put the Jet one in - it could be done in one visit!
Oh, actually, I could also just compare my dyno with others that have headers and a CAI!
[ 08-09-2001: Message edited by: Ogolden1 ]</STRONG>
<STRONG>Another way of doing it would be to just "swap" PCM's with someone! Run dyno with a stock PCM, then put the Jet one in - it could be done in one visit!
Oh, actually, I could also just compare my dyno with others that have headers and a CAI!
[ 08-09-2001: Message edited by: Ogolden1 ]</STRONG>
So, if you want to do the test, you would want to go to the dyno with a box with plenty of miles on it (your box will do -- I presume).
Then change to the stock CPU -- and give it a chance to also "adjust" to your car. If you didn't give the "swapped" box some time to adjust, you would penalize it.
I've seen a lot of experiments "dirtied" by "assumptions"...
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